Negative CSLs

[Tonio]

Trying to build a power that imposes a -3OCV/DCV on the target. Can I buy 6 Negative CSLs and define them as 3/3, or do I have to buy two Linked powers?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Trying to build a power that imposes a -3OCV/DCV on the target. Can I buy 6 Negative CSLs and define them as 3/3' date=' or do I have to buy two Linked powers?[/quote']

 

I'd say that if the NSL is bought as a single power, however distributed, it is a single power, not two that can be linked, so I'd just buy it -3/-3. That's just me though

[L. Marcus]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

. . . Maybe a Custom Lim -- Only To Impose -3 OCV/-3 DCV (-0)?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Trying to build a power that imposes a -3OCV/DCV on the target. Can I buy 6 Negative CSLs and define them as 3/3' date=' or do I have to buy two Linked powers?[/quote']

 

Wouldn't this be more simply done as Change Environment, Accurate? Meaning it only hits one target anyway? Then you can define the SFX however you like.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

was about to say that, myself....

[Tonio]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Wouldn't this be more simply done as Change Environment' date=' Accurate? Meaning it only hits one target anyway? Then you can define the SFX however you like.[/quote']

 

Thought about that, but then it wouldn't follow the target, would it? I mean, the target could just walk away, I'd think. Also, I dislike how CE has no "defenses" for it, unless I'm missing something.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

I'd assumed with NCSLs you had to define whether they reduced OCV or DCV when purchased. Am I wrong? Again?

[Tonio]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Nope, not wrong. I was just wondering whether you could "mix and match", or whether they all had to be defined as reducing the same thing. That is, I'm not wondering whether i can buy "6 NCSLs" and use them for DCV now, OCV later, and half-and-half at some other point in time. Rather, I'm wondering whether I can define my 6 NCSLs as doing -3OCV and -3DCV, always.

 

In other news, turns out the player wanted a power that reduced the target TO 3OCV/DCV. He'd initially asked for Mind Control with a Set Effect "Only to cause confusion", which he defined as lowering the target to 3 OCV/DCV. I disallowed it for several reasons, first of which was it turned out to be a 165 AP power (in a 300pt campaign), but mostly because there are already at least two other mechanisms for reducing OCV/DCV, which are more straightfoward. I suggested CE, but he wants the power to "stick" to the target, and I don't really like how CE gives you -3 OCV/DCV, PERIOD, with no defenses. So now I'm thinking NCSLs. Except when he explained he wanted the target at 3 DCV/OCV, I'm now thinking a mental entangle would be more appropriate.

 

The SFX is a cloud of nanobots which attack the target's neurons or something, causing confusion which manifests as reduced combat values. Thoughts, ideas?

[boomer]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

You could do it as a DEX drain.....lower DEX would give lower CSL's naturally. That makes more sense with what the player is trying to do. A swarm of nanobots that attack neurons would make them misfire/not fire at all making the target less dextrous. A Drain sounds like it would be more efficient to build.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

AoE Naked Power Advantage on opponent's Stun UAA?

 

What?

 

More sensibly:

 

Suppress DEX 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (Turned off by an EMP, and DEX Aid or Succor, or the appropriate command code sent by radio transmission. Nanites are self replicating but annot last more than 2 turns; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Won;t reduce DEX below 8; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Cannot re-infect until nanites stop functioning; -1/2)

 

SFX: nanites infect the inner ear of the target, causing confusion and disorientation

 

15 points

 

I say 'sensibly': that's quite nasty. Each phase it supresses DEX for 2d6 Character points (about 2 points of DEX) and then next phase it maintains th esupress and adds another (so you are down 4 points) etc. This goes on until the nanites self replicate tot he point where they are interfering with each other (about 2 turns), by which stage their DEX will have reduced by over 4x(your SPD), or probably 18-28 points of their actual DEX (56-84 character points worth.

 

That's on a 2d6 supress. Smokin'

[Tonio]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

True... DEX Drain DOES sound more in tune with the power description. Well, except for the whole "target is reduced to 3 DCV/OCV", which I'm inclined to advise against anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

True... DEX Drain DOES sound more in tune with the power description. Well' date=' except for the whole "target is reduced [b']to[/b] 3 DCV/OCV", which I'm inclined to advise against anyway.

 

You can cap out the maximum drain, but frankly it is not worth that much of a limitation unless you are in a low CV game anyway.

[boomer]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

AoE Naked Power Advantage on opponent's Stun UAA?

 

What?

 

More sensibly:

 

Suppress DEX 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (Turned off by an EMP, and DEX Aid or Succor, or the appropriate command code sent by radio transmission. Nanites are self replicating but annot last more than 2 turns; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Won;t reduce DEX below 8; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Cannot re-infect until nanites stop functioning; -1/2)

 

SFX: nanites infect the inner ear of the target, causing confusion and disorientation

 

15 points

 

I say 'sensibly': that's quite nasty. Each phase it supresses DEX for 2d6 Character points (about 2 points of DEX) and then next phase it maintains th esupress and adds another (so you are down 4 points) etc. This goes on until the nanites self replicate tot he point where they are interfering with each other (about 2 turns), by which stage their DEX will have reduced by over 4x(your SPD), or probably 18-28 points of their actual DEX (56-84 character points worth.

 

That's on a 2d6 supress. Smokin'

 

I didn't think of Supress.....that sounds good too actually.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Crap. I'm agreeing with Sean again. I must be coming down with something. He's right; a DEX Drain will do almost exactly what you want, and it causes disorientation. You may want to bump it up to 3d6 to get the 'result' that you want (-3/-3), and I would build it as a Continuing Charge, rather than Uncontrolled, but that's picking nits.

 

Maybe I should see a doctor...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

I personally don't use NSL's anymore unless absolutely nothing else will do. When they first came out they seemed cool and I used them on several characters, but they quickly proved to have limitations that outweighed their perceived usefulness.

 

I tend to favor Change Environment for this sort of effect these days. I've got a number of characters with examples of both.

 

 

DEX drain is an option as cited previously, and is sometimes appropriate, but it does have some weird baggage...like why do characters with Power Defense resist the effect? For some concepts it makes sense, for others it doesn't.

 

 

As usual, theres more than one way to get a similar end effect; pick the one that most closely fits the concept.

[boomer]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

I personally don't use NSL's anymore unless absolutely nothing else will do. When they first came out they seemed cool and I used them on several characters, but they quickly proved to have limitations that outweighed their perceived usefulness.

 

I tend to favor Change Environment for this sort of effect these days. I've got a number of characters with examples of both.

 

 

DEX drain is an option as cited previously, and is sometimes appropriate, but it does have some weird baggage...like why do characters with Power Defense resist the effect? For some concepts it makes sense, for others it doesn't.

 

 

As usual, theres more than one way to get a similar end effect; pick the one that most closely fits the concept.

 

Could you make it a DEX Drain with an NND? Then Power Defense wouldn't work, would it? It's been awhile since I've looked at the rules....

[L. Marcus]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

. . . Or an AVLD?

 

What would the SFX be for this Power, anyway?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Could you make it a DEX Drain with an NND? Then Power Defense wouldn't work' date=' would it? It's been awhile since I've looked at the rules....[/quote']

 

You could...but then you'd have to wonder a) why you are taking an ability that is already effective AVLD and applying a full +1 advantage to it to turn off AVLD and get the lesser NND effect. Not very efficient / elegant. You'd also have to define the reasonably common things that are immune to the effect. Drain is also not ranged so you need to add Range.

 

It also has other side effects -- since you are lowering the targets DEX you are lowering everything based on DEX, not just OCV / DCV. This may or may not make sense depending on what effect you are trying to accomplish.

 

I don't have time to comb thru and find every single example on my site, but here are a few characters that I recall offhand as having abilities of this nature modeled in various ways:

 

Fyrclian -- Cause Confusion

 

Ergal Sharlia -- Fancy Footwork

 

Showdown -- Hit Em In The Gut

 

Blackjack Luckform (Blackjack) -- Probability Field

 

As a side note, you can also accomplish a similar net effect by granting bonuses to teammates instead of imposing penalties on an opponent. In the end granting an ally +1 OCV iresults in the same OCV vs DCV calculation as imposing -1 DCV on an opponent. The system presents less friction to advantageous effects than it does to harmful effects. Something to think about...

[Tonio]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Excellent, KS... that helps, a LOT.

 

As an aside, the player just told me exactly what he wanted, initially (although he's now willing to modify it, since it'll probably be over 60APs). It's basically the Confusion spell from d20:

 

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Ah. Well the confusion spell is another thing entirely. I just did a Gibbering Mouth conversion for ... uh ... runescience I believe, over in the Fantasy forums (the relevance of which the Gibberer has an innate confusion effect).

 

 

Personally, I've actually excised Confusion from my conversion of d20. I used to present a version of it as a Mind Control effect and it worked out OK mechanically, but it was a major hassle in actual game play both to adjudicate and track. I had a PC in a campaign that used it and every time they did the game ground to a halt. It simply wasn't worth the overhead so I dumped it entirely. It's also ridiculously expensive to model properly, even cutting corners (using Explosion vs Radius, etc). For the same Active Points you can do substantially more with less gimmicky powers. That's not even considering the fact that some of the possible effects of confusion result in the victims attacking the caster of the spell and / or their allies which is somewhat undesirable.

 

If you really want such an effect, the Gibbering Mouther version can serve as a model; just change the limitations on it to make a "spell" as opposed to a "innate ability" and there you go. However, my advice to you as one GM to another is think carefully about if you really want to allow an AoE Mind Control with totally random effects into your game. If you do, you need to read up on the Mental rules, particularly breakout rolls and think about how a bunch of ECV rolls, vs EGO effect rolls, break out rolls, and rolls for random effects will slow down the game.

[Tonio]

Re: Negative CSLs

 

Oops, my bad... it's the effect from the Confusion spell, but not the actual spell per se. It's actually a grenade that lets off a small cloud (1 hex area, at best... probably no area) of nanobots which invade the target's nervous system and puts him under an effect as described in d20's Confusion spell. (I hadda dig a bit for that... he actually said "If you've ever fought an Umber Hulk, well, that.")

 

I'll check out your Gibbering Mouther write up. I'm sure at worst it'll shed some light on the issue. =)