package deal question

[adidamps2]

how do package deal's work in relation to normal maximum's? or specifically for racial package deals. i was reading through the "terran empire" setting book for star hero's...and noticed that the Korundar race has +20 str bonus but that it did not indicate an increase in points over the maximum of 20. is this because the bonus/racial package sets the "maximum" for what ever stats in the package at a new level. so that the Horundar's max str is 40, and any point added beyond this will cost x2 as much? am i understanding this right? package deals "can" increase/decrease the maximum of stats that pertain to it? (did that even make sense?) i re-read through the hero core book and the terran empire book but i didnt see any thing that indicated either way what actually takes palce with a package deal?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: package deal questiom

 

how do package deal's work in relation to normal maximum's? or specifically for racial package deals. i was reading through the "terran empire" setting book for star hero's...and noticed that the Korundar race has +20 str bonus but that it did not indicate an increase in points over the maximum of 20. is this because the bonus/racial package sets the "maximum" for what ever stats in the package at a new level. so that the Horundar's max str is 40' date=' and any point added beyond this will cost x2 as much? am i understanding this right? package deals "can" increase/decrease the maximum of stats that pertain to it? (did that even make sense?) i re-read through the hero core book and the terran empire book but i didnt see any thing that indicated either way what actually takes palce with a package deal?[/quote']

 

i believe in 5th Edition that package deals apply all points normally; so if you're using Normal Characteristic Maxima, they "must" take the extra points to boost their STR, and they have to pay for them as anyone else would. The Package Deals are really there to enforce homogenization among racial packages, so when you encounter X race, you know, within reason, what they can do, because the "race" is a Special Effect that always has [these powers.]

[Kdansky]

Re: package deal questiom

 

Yes, NCM does not change (anymore). It was like that in BBB (or in GURPS), and results in the D20 "If you want to have high strength, play a half-ogre"-phenomena. Now you just get some of your points assigned for you. So +20 points in strength would result in a strength of 25 (10 from 10 to 20, another 10 for 5 more due to NCM).

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal questiom

 

i believe in 5th Edition that package deals apply all points normally; so if you're using Normal Characteristic Maxima' date=' they "must" take the extra points to boost their STR, and they have to pay for them as anyone else would. The Package Deals are really there to enforce homogenization among racial packages, so when you encounter X race, you know, within reason, what they can do, because the "race" is a Special Effect that always has [these powers.']

that would make sense with small stat boosts like a +2 or +5 but a +20 to str tells me that they dont have a max str of 20. the package deal i was using as an example there had the Korundar only paying 20 points for the +20 str. if what you said held true i'd have to pay 40 points for that +20 boost. right?

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal questiom

 

Yes' date=' NCM does not change (anymore). It was like that in BBB (or in GURPS), and results in the D20 "If you want to have high strength, play a half-ogre"-phenomena. Now you just get some of your points assigned for you. So +20 points in strength would result in a strength of 25 (10 from 10 to 20, another 10 for 5 more due to NCM).[/quote']

oh ok..this makes more sense. i was thinking more along the lines of D&D and how racial adjustments adjusted the maximums of ability stats.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

NCM doesnt fluctuate by default. However many GM's use some means of altered NCM for various races in Fantasy, SciFi, etc.

 

Here's how I do it in my Fantasy games:

 

Race Package Notes

 

Here is a utility web page I wrote to created altered NCM templates for HERO Designer:

 

Altered NCM Template Maker

 

Here's a bunch of Fantasy Race Packages on my site:

 

Race Packages

 

 

And also, here is a very detailed D&D 3e to HERO System conversion:

 

DnD 3e to HERO System Conversion

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal question

 

NCM doesnt fluctuate by default. However many GM's use some means of altered NCM for various races in Fantasy, SciFi, etc.

 

Here's how I do it in my Fantasy games:

 

Race Package Notes

 

Here is a utility web page I wrote to created altered NCM templates for HERO Designer:

 

Altered NCM Template Maker

 

Here's a bunch of Fantasy Race Packages on my site:

 

Race Packages

 

 

And also, here is a very detailed D&D 3e to HERO System conversion:

 

DnD 3e to HERO System Conversion

all i can say is WOW...awesome write up for the package deals...thanks for the links:thumbup:

[JmOz]

Re: package deal question

 

You know, if you build your package deals with the POWER Characteristic instead of real characteristics it would still function as the added instead of as just dedication (I do that for my games)

[Lucius]

Re: package deal question

 

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Falling off a palindromedary

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal question

 

both of those would be good idea's as well. although i do "understand" the reasoning behind NCM's.

[pawsplay]

Re: package deal question

 

Maybe Steve could address this particular issue.

[JmOz]

Re: package deal question

 

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Falling off a palindromedary

 

As a seperate disad I agree, Personaly I like the idea of NCM being something each GM sets for there game depending on the feel you are going for, so the default may be 20, but the book supporting it set at 15, or 30, or whatever based on the game the GM wants, leave the default where it is now for heroic games, but TALK and provide the options for other settings...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

all i can say is WOW...awesome write up for the package deals...thanks for the links:thumbup:

 

No problem. People like you are what I put the material out there for.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

You know' date=' if you build your package deals with the POWER Characteristic instead of real characteristics it would still function as the added instead of as just dedication (I do that for my games)[/quote']

 

Yes, this is what I have done since 5th Edition came out and the old (mathematically flawed) mechanism of altering NCM was removed. This is in effect in the Race Packages I linked to above; stat mods plus and minus in the Race Packages affect NCM for that race.

 

However, to apply negative characteristic modifiers in HERO Designer you have to make a custom template anyway, so in practice I handle both pluses and minuses via the custom template maker I linked to previously. Keeps it consistent.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Falling off a palindromedary

NCM has a purpose. My problem with NCM isn't that it exists as an option for use when appropriate to a setting, but rather that no official mechanism is provided to alter it in a mathematically regular way.

 

However, I'm not interested in getting involved in yet another NCM argument, so I'll just agree to disagree.

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal question

 

Yes' date=' this is what I have done since 5th Edition came out and the old (mathematically flawed) mechanism of altering NCM was removed. [b']This is in effect in the Race Packages I linked to above; stat mods plus and minus in the Race Packages affect NCM for that race[/b].

 

However, to apply negative characteristic modifiers in HERO Designer you have to make a custom template anyway, so in practice I handle both pluses and minuses via the custom template maker I linked to previously. Keeps it consistent.

and that's what i was originally thinking when i read the packages. and is what i plan on doing regarding NCM in my setting. i just wish the text was more detailed about what the "packages" do if a NCM is used in a champaign.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

and that's what i was originally thinking when i read the packages. and is what i plan on doing regarding NCM in my setting. i just wish the text was more detailed about what the "packages" do if a NCM is used in a champaign.

 

The Race Package Design notes document I linked to above and here again describe the way I use them in quite a bit of depth -- nine printed pages worth of depth.

 

The Packages themselves are a generic resource intended to be usable in whatever setting; mathematically they cost the same whether they modify NCM or not. It's up to the GM.

 

 

And, with that, its time for bed.

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal question

 

The Race Package Design notes document I linked to above and here again describe the way I use them in quite a bit of depth -- nine printed pages worth of depth.

 

The Packages themselves are a generic resource intended to be usable in whatever setting; mathematically they cost the same whether they modify NCM or not. It's up to the GM.

 

 

And, with that, its time for bed.

i hope you didnt think i meant your "text"...i reffering to the core book text.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: package deal question

 

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Falling off a palindromedary

 

And STR should be costed at 2:1, and DEX should be decoupled from OCV & DCV. But you know, c'est la vie.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

i hope you didnt think i meant your "text"...i reffering to the core book text.

 

Ah; gotcha.

[sbarron]

Re: package deal question

 

i just wish the text was more detailed about what the "packages" do if a NCM is used in a champaign.

I'm not sure if this is a request for additional info or not. If not, please ignore my post. If so, I hope this helps.

 

Package deals have absolutely nothing to do with NCM. The GM sets the NCM for his game, and should tell the players what the maximums are at the beginning of character creation. NCM is the same for everyone, regardless of race, class, style, whatever (unless the GM says otherwise, but let's stick to the norm).

 

The GM will also establish the package deals for each race and class, or might work with a player to create something. But in 5th Edition, a racial package deal is now only this: "What all members of a race XX spend on their characters."

 

So in the case of your Korundar...+20 STR. This means all Korundar spend 20 character points on STR. That's it. That's all it means. It's not a bonus to STR, and it's not an adjustment to NCM. It just means that in order to be a Korundar, you have to plunk at least 20 character points into STR. And if NCM is set at 20, then all Korundar will start out with at least 25 STR (so long as they don't sell any back.)

 

But as KS points out, you can adjust the heck out of this rule if you think it better suits your game.

[JmOz]

Re: package deal question

 

I'm not sure if this is a request for additional info or not. If not, please ignore my post. If so, I hope this helps.

 

Package deals have absolutely nothing to do with NCM. The GM sets the NCM for his game, and should tell the players what the maximums are at the beginning of character creation. NCM is the same for everyone, regardless of race, class, style, whatever (unless the GM says otherwise, but let's stick to the norm).

 

The GM will also establish the package deals for each race and class, or might work with a player to create something. But in 5th Edition, a racial package deal is now only this: "What all members of a race XX spend on their characters."

 

So in the case of your Korundar...+20 STR. This means all Korundar spend 20 character points on STR. That's it. That's all it means. It's not a bonus to STR, and it's not an adjustment to NCM. It just means that in order to be a Korundar, you have to plunk at least 20 character points into STR. And if NCM is set at 20, then all Korundar will start out with at least 25 STR (so long as they don't sell any back.)

 

But as KS points out, you can adjust the heck out of this rule if you think it better suits your game.

 

Plus useing the Rules as written, if the GM chooses he can build the bonuses to characteristics with the Characteristic power, thus using what is at times called the Defender Loophole. Of course this is just one option of many a GM can use to model what he wants to

[Paragon]

Re: package deal question

 

As far as I can tell in 5th (and mostly in 4th) Edition, package deals exist only to notify expectations of what characters of certain races, backgrounds and professions should have as minimum modifications at character creation. There's otherwise no real purpose they serve, and they have no intrinsic mechanical implications.

[ghost-angel]

Re: package deal question

 

Wow, Terran Empire has to be the only setting/sourcebook to not mention this.

 

The costs given in Package Deals are the Standard Costs and do not take into account a campaign using NCM. If you do use NCM the prices will need to be adjusted to account for it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

As far as I can tell in 5th (and mostly in 4th) Edition' date=' package deals exist only to notify expectations of what characters of certain races, backgrounds and professions should have as minimum modifications at character creation. There's otherwise no real purpose they serve, and they have no intrinsic mechanical implications.[/quote']

 

Yes, in 5th edition Packages are just organizational aids by default. Nothing more or less.