CoC HERO feedback sought

[Utech]

I’m considering starting a Call of Cthulhu campaign using HERO rules. (I may simply use the fine existing CoC Chaosium rules. Humor me.) I’ve been thinking about character creation and have some thoughts. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

 

Equipment

Equipment is purchased with money. Powers are generally not available to starting PCs; players may certainly petition the Keeper for an exception.

 

Character Points for Character Creation

Players begin with 30 Character Points to spend on Characteristics for their character. Disadvantages may not be taken for additional points.

 

After all 30 points have been spent, players are awarded additional Character Points based on their Characteristics. Some strings are attached:

INT x 2

= points to spend on

INT-based Skills

Scholar

Scientist

Skill Levels with INT-based Skills

EGO x 2

= points to spend on

PRE-based Skills

Professional Skills

Jack of All Trades

Skill Levels with PRE-based Skills

DEX

= points to spend on

DEX-based Skills

Skill Levels with DEX-based Skills

(STR + CON + BODY) / 3

= points to spend as you like

New Skills

Know. Know is a catch-all INT-based everyman Skill that starts at 9 + (INT / 5). The Know Skill is used to cover a character’s knowledge of trivia. Know can be increased through the expenditure of Character Points during character creation and/or Experience Points later in the character’s career.

 

Credit Rating. Credit Rating is an everyman Skill that starts as a familiarity. It is not based on any Characteristic. It may be purchased as a full Skill for 2 points with a +1 to the roll per +2 points invested. Credit Rating is a rough measure of how much the character is valued by other members of society. It is more a measure of personal reputation than monetary worth, but Credit Rating can sometimes be improved by wisely spending one’s wealth.

Credit Rating can be purchased (and improved) during character creation with Character Points, but may not be improved with Experience Points. The Keeper may permanently increase or decrease a character’s Credit Rating skill depending on circumstances during game play.

 

Cthulhu Mythos. Cthulhu Mythos is an INT-based Skill that most characters will gain during game play. Starting characters never have the Cthulhu Mythos skill and it cannot be improved through the expenditure of Experience Points.

 

Sanity

A character’s starting SAN score is EGO x 5 (maximum 100). This figured Characteristic can never be increased through the expenditure of Character Points (or Experience Points).

 

Luck

All characters are given the LUCK power for free. Starting points in LUCK are EGO / 5. This Power can be increased through the expenditure of Experience Points, but cannot be increased by spending Character Points during character creation.

[jtelson]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

It looks like you'll end up with characters who are between 110 and 140 points with 30 spent on Sats and the remainder on Skills.

 

Are Science and Knowledge skills lumped under INT skills these days as opposed to being background skills? If not, you'll want to add them to your INT costed skills.

 

Credit rating would be purchased from the STR+CON+BODY skills as would any Perks or Talents.

 

As a player my first glance tells me I want to put as many points as I can into STR+CON+BODY. I'm getting 20 Skill points in each of the 3 limited catagories just for existing but only 10 'open' points.

 

Personally, I'd probably just go with a reasonably basic 50 base/50 disads and, if I was concerned about player stats, limit the number of stat points to 30.

 

I've run CoC style games at that point level without any problems (without Stat limits). Building SAN loss as an EGO drain (Temp) or Transform (Perm) abilities on the creatures/items.

[rjcurrie]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

Do you like the Hero combat system that much more than the CoC combat system? Because if you don't, you're really much further ahead using the CoC rules since you have virtually thrown out Hero Character Creation.

 

But with what you have here, I do have a few questions:

• I assume that you cannot use the (STR + CON + BODY)/3 points on Characteristics. Is that correct?
  
• Why have you eliminated Disadvantages? That really seems to gut Hero to me.
  
• Why not just use KS: Trivia and make it INT-Based instead of adding a skill?
  
• Why not use Hero's Reputation and Wealth Perks to represent what Credit Rating is being used.
  
• Personally, I would incorporate both PRE and EGO in the Sanity calculation. Remember that PRE also makes you harder to effect with PRE attacks which there would be a lot of in a Cthulhu Hero game.

[GamePhil]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

I'd do it slightly differently, using higher Characteristics as a prerequisite for more Skills rather than using it to give more points in Skills. So, INT would allow up to 2 x INT in scholarly skills, rather than giving you 2xINT in those same skills. All characters would be built on the same points otherwise. I just like the PCs being around the same totals.

 

However, your write-up is a good way to separate out tough characters from scholarly ones. Scholarly characters will be more total points, but a lot of those points will be spent on Background Skills and so on, some of which won't always come up. So it may work very well if that's what you're after.

 

I'd also regard Luck as a Figured Characteristic rather than as a free Power based on EGO, but that's semantics: the two amount to the same thing.

 

I might consider doing Sanity and so on in an entirely different way rather than duplicate CoC rules in Hero, but if I wanted to use their rules I'd pretty much do it the way you did for Sanity, Luck, and the new Skills.

[GamePhil]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

Do you like the Hero combat system that much more than the CoC combat system? Because if you don't, you're really much further ahead using the CoC rules since you have virtually thrown out Hero Character Creation.

 

Well, really he's just thrown out the normal rules on where the points come from, and heavily restricted Powers. It's still Hero otherwise, so I can't agree that he's, "virtually thrown out Hero Character Creation."

 

However, I do agree that it would be helpful to know: What do you (Utech) find the advantages would be to run it in Hero rather than CoC? I believe that they are numerous and compelling, which is why I only use Hero even if I port a bunch of things in from another system, but I don't know your reasons.

 

I'd give you my list, but I don't want to bias the answer

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

Are Science and Knowledge skills lumped under INT skills these days as opposed to being background skills? If not' date=' you'll want to add them to your INT costed skills.[/quote']

They can be purchased as either Background or INT-based skills (5ER pages 61 and 69). I leave it to the player to decide which they prefer.

 

Credit rating would be purchased from the STR+CON+BODY skills as would any Perks or Talents.

(STR+CON+BODY)/3. Yes.

 

As a player my first glance tells me I want to put as many points as I can into STR+CON+BODY. I'm getting 20 Skill points in each of the 3 limited catagories just for existing but only 10 'open' points.

(STR+CON+BODY)/3. That would be your choice, of course. Do you see it as problematic?

 

Thank you for your thoughts as to how you'd do things.

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

Do you like the Hero combat system that much more than the CoC combat system?

No. I don't think combat will be an especially important part of the game. Investigating will. I hope the character creation rules I've outlined would help to facilitate that.

 

Because if you don't' date=' you're really much further ahead using the CoC rules since you have virtually thrown out Hero Character Creation.[/quote']

I understand. As I wrote in the original post, humor me.

 

I assume that you cannot use the (STR + CON + BODY)/3 points on Characteristics. Is that correct?

Yes.

Why have you eliminated Disadvantages? That really seems to gut Hero to me.

1. Characters will end up with plenty of Disadvantages through game play. I don't see a need to front-load them.
   
2. In this game, I don't need the plot hooks.
   
3. It is far more interesting and entertaining to take a character to the breaking point if he starts far from it.

Why not just use KS: Trivia and make it INT-Based instead of adding a skill?

I don't see KS: Trivia in 5ER. Did I miss it? I suspect that the Know Skill I created would serve essentially the same function. Calling it "Know" maintains a CoC convention I enjoy.

Why not use Hero's Reputation and Wealth Perks to represent what Credit Rating is being used.

• Reputation remains available to characters but is divorced from Credit Rating. A famous marksman might be a social idiot or the town darling.
  
• Wealth remains available to characters but is divorced from Credit Rating. A filthy rich businessman might be shunned by a community because of how he gained his wealth. A friendly barber might have the ear (so to speak) of every important figure in town.

Personally' date=' I would incorporate both PRE and EGO in the Sanity calculation. Remember that PRE also makes you harder to effect with PRE attacks which there would be a lot of in a Cthulhu Hero game.[/quote']

My thinking is this: A high PRE does wonders when confronted by (or confronting) a tough bouncer. It's worthless against Cthulhu Mythos beings.

 

Thank you very much for the feedback.

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

I'd do it slightly differently' date=' using higher Characteristics as a prerequisite for more Skills rather than using it to give more points in Skills. So, INT would allow up to 2 x INT in scholarly skills, rather than giving you 2xINT in those same skills. All characters would be built on the same points otherwise. I just like the PCs being around the same totals.

I understand and appreciate your approach. I'd rather let each player decide his own point cap. I don't mind at all having PCs with wildly different totals.

 

However' date=' your write-up is a good way to separate out tough characters from scholarly ones. Scholarly characters will be more total points, but a lot of those points will be spent on Background Skills and so on, some of which won't always come up. So it may work very well if that's what you're after.[/quote']

That's it precisely. Thank you for putting it so well.

 

Thank you very much for the feedback.

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

What do you (Utech) find the advantages would be to run it in Hero rather than CoC?

I'm not sure yet. Thinking that I might find out.

 

But that's cheap. Let me give you three reasons:

1. Bell curve instead of flat percentile. I've never had trouble with the flat percentile in CoC before, but I may find myself liking the bell curve better.
   
2. Players who are more familiar with HERO than CoC.
   
3. Clearer and more consistent mechanics.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

If you wnat to run CoC HERO I think it would be great. Many of my adventures are based on CoC ones. However I agree you've pretty much gutted what's interesting in HERO. disadvantages are what my players use to make the character a real person not just some numbers. With that and your other thoughts, HEROs color, flavor and advantages are nullified IMO. Just go with the original system or really go for it in HERO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

With 30 points to invest in stats, no one will have high stats anyway. Buying a 20 DEX (admittedly extreme) takes all your stat points. It's not even possible to generate 12's across the board, even ignoring PRE and COM.

 

Can the PC's reduce some stats to get more points for other stats (eg. drop STR, BOD and CON to 8 each to free up 10 more points for DEX, INT and EGO)?

 

With 10's across the board, I can have 20 points of INT-based skills (most notably Research given the genre). 20 points worth of interaction skills from my Ego can allow me a fairly broad spread, or can allow me to have a huge roll in just one skill - the kind of Persuasion that gets you to hand over Manhattan Island for a handful of beads even when you understand the value of real estate. Dex-based skills? Well, assuming I'm making a persuasive scholar, not a combatant (which would be prudent...) spend all of it on levels with Dive For Cover.

 

You're basically creating a structure under which there can be no specialists. Everyone will have similar numbers of skill points in each category, since:

 

- you can't buy everything up a lot anyway, or even anything up a lot without sacrificing everything else

- you start with a huge base of points from base human stats, so the fluctuations will mean less than the base

- you can't afford NOT to buy up Ego (due to the sanity structure), narrowing that range

 

I'd play CoC rather than convert it to Hero under those guidelines - I think you'll get a better result.

[GamePhil]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

I'm not sure yet. Thinking that I might find out.

 

But that's cheap. Let me give you three reasons:

1. Bell curve instead of flat percentile. I've never had trouble with the flat percentile in CoC before, but I may find myself liking the bell curve better.
   
2. Players who are more familiar with HERO than CoC.
   
3. Clearer and more consistent mechanics.

 

Yeah, those are three of mine right there.

 

Another is the possibility, however unlikely, of characters using the Power system. It really adds something to play that you can create such abilities as part of a cohesive rules set rather than making your best guess on what a spell will look like. It also leaves you with more possible character concepts than you can have with CoC, and a clever player might even get to use one by proven it fits the campaign. Won't get that even remote possibility with CoC normally.

 

I never cared for character advancement in Basic Role-Playing, so replacing it with a Hero-style experience system is a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

 

While Disadvantages are, indeed, a great part of the system that encourages early development, it is hardly key, especially if your group is willing to write up a decent character history, anyway. It also gives you a good shorthand for Disads you add to them later.

 

If it is indeed the case that you can't afford not to buy up Ego because of how you calculate SAN, woe betide anyone that plays CoC and happens to roll a low Power. Woe, I say. I believe I vaguely remember a point-buy system for CoC in the last game I played in. Power didn't invariably get bought up, and there were still characters that started with low SAN'S. I have to call it even: you can play Hero and have everyone possibly buy up EGO, play CoC and have everyone possibly buy up POW, or play CoC and have everyone possibly start with a 15 SAN (unlikely, but possible).

 

I can't imagine how you won't have specialists. Like CoC, Hero has a wealth of different skills that can allow a group with even low skills to be completely different from one another, and quite good once you take into account Complimentary Skill Rolls. Another advantage!

 

I guess I'm the dissenter. If you find at the end of all this that you prefer to go with CoC, great, but the way what you are working toward appears to be dismissed is vaguely... disturbing. (lose 1-4 SAN).

[GamePhil]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

Or, to put it more suscinctly:

 

You have changed the manner in which characters get points.

 

You have added three skills and two Figured Characteristics.

 

You have kept the vast majority of the rules, including the potential to buy Powers, though rare, only losing getting Points from Disadvantages. You even specified that they may not be taken for additional points, not that someone couldn't take them for free, so the ability to use them as a character development tool is still there, as long as the player doesn't mind not getting points.

 

You have, while doing all this, ported over a build style you like into Hero. As to how successful the port is, we shall see.

 

You have kept game play elements aside from this intact, which, in my opinion, are vastly superior to those of CoC.

 

And you are being told on the Hero boards, go back to CoC. I lose 3d6 SAN.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

Is what you're gaining by doing it this way worth the extra work that you're doing?

 

I'm going to assume you have specific reasons for doing it this way, but it's hard to tell exactly what they are from your postings, and I'm curious. If you'd like to tell us, I'm interested in hearing.

 

Also, out of curiosity, have you tried it with the default Hero System rules?

 

Edited, after further reading: Utech, please don't think I'm trying to make you justify your mods. But it's hard to know what kind of feedback you're looking for without seeing some background.

[rjcurrie]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

And you are being told on the Hero boards, go back to CoC. I lose 3d6 SAN.

 

It's generally my opinion that if all you are going to do is port another game's rules into Hero as opposed to re-imagining it for Hero, then you are usually better off just playing the other game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

I like it. I think that we don't do enough serious Hero Mods, which is a shame because I think that the rules are strong enough to stand up on their own without needing to rely on the character creation rules as writ (fantastic as they are).

 

I think that EGO is going to be pretty high for most of the characters as it does seem to be enormously useful. That may well lead to a preponderance of a certain type of character. Still, I like the feel of it - you haven't got enough points to splurge on characteristics and that is reasonably true to the Lovecraft books.

 

Personally I can't stand the call of cthulu game (I don't mind the chaosium system,or d20, or whatever - I just don't like the SAN stuff). If you've never read a game called Unknown Armies, get it and look at how they do sanity - far more accomplished in all departments, and something I'm currently looking to adapt to Hero, so if anyone's had a go already, let me know.

 

On the subject, if you've not read any Charles Stross*, give it a go: modern 'horrors from beyond' stuff without all the tedious drooling in a strait jacket. Fan-bloody-tastic!

 

 

* Just finished 'The Atrocity Archives' and I'm wanting to run a modern Cthulu-esque game. It must be good!

[Savinien]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

All of yhour changes seem well thought out and specific for YOUR needs. You've kept the things from HERO that you liked and kept the things from CoC that you like.

 

Seems like a win-win situation to me.

 

Sign me up!

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

I agree you've pretty much gutted what's interesting in HERO. disadvantages are what my players use to make the character a real person not just some numbers. With that and your other thoughts' date=' HEROs color, flavor and advantages are nullified IMO.[/quote']

Don't feel you have to hold back.

 

While I agree that Disadvantages may help define a character, I don't agree that without Disadvantages a character can be nothing but some numbers. I think characters can be defined in many ways. Of course I won't insist that players do not take Disadvantages -- they just don't get any points for taking them.

 

Aside from the Disadvantages issue, what is it about my thoughts that nullifies HERO's color, flavor and advantages in your opinion?

 

Thank you for your feedback.

[GamePhil]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

It's generally my opinion that if all you are going to do is port another game's rules into Hero as opposed to re-imagining it for Hero' date=' then you are usually better off just playing the other game.[/quote']

 

And I disagree. If the base game is superior (which is up to the user, to me Hero is), but some mechanics are for any reason desirable (I honestly wouldn't use the proposal, but I understand what he is after and it looks like it should work well for it, and I would play in such a game), only gain can be had by combining the two unless it is too much work. And he's already done the work. It took all of a half a page to write up his basic proposal. More work has been done telling him it's a bad idea because it is a mechanic from another system.

 

"The Ultimate Gamer's Tool Kit. But only if you don't try to bring in mechanics from other games that you like."

 

Hmm. No, pretty sure it's just, "The Ultimate Gamer's Tool Kit."

 

Savinien said it with better, I think. I will still leave my ramblings.

[GamePhil]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

disadvantages are what my players use to make the character a real person not just some numbers.

 

Disadvantages don't make a character a real person. Players do.

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

With 30 points to invest in stats' date=' no one will have high stats anyway. Buying a 20 DEX (admittedly extreme) takes all your stat points. It's not even possible to generate 12's across the board, even ignoring PRE and COM.

I consider this a good thing.

 

Can the PC's reduce some stats to get more points for other stats (eg. drop STR' date=' BOD and CON to 8 each to free up 10 more points for DEX, INT and EGO)?[/quote']

Sure!

 

20 points worth of interaction skills from my Ego can allow me a fairly broad spread' date=' or can allow me to have a huge roll in just one skill - the kind of Persuasion that gets you to hand over Manhattan Island for a handful of beads even when you understand the value of real estate.[/quote']

Yes to the first. I'd have to know more about why your character is so one-dimensional before approving a huge roll in just one skill.

 

Dex-based skills? Well' date=' assuming I'm making a persuasive scholar, not a combatant (which would be prudent...) spend all of it on levels with Dive For Cover.[/quote']

Again, I'd have to know more about why your character is so focused on a single combat maneuver before approving spending all of your points on Dive For Cover. I can assure you that spending all of your points on Dive For Cover is not necessary for your character to survive the game.

 

 

You're basically creating a structure under which there can be no specialists.

I think it would be a simple matter to write up an aviator, explorer, architect, painter, actor, jazz musician, boxer, accountant, salesman, switchboard operator, barber, rabbi...

 

Everyone will have similar numbers of skill points in each category, since:

- you can't buy everything up a lot anyway, or even anything up a lot without sacrificing everything else

I don't see this as a bad thing. Could you elaborate?

 

- you start with a huge base of points from base human stats' date=' so the fluctuations will mean less than the base[/quote']

Is this any different than what happens in any HERO game with low starting points?

 

- you can't afford NOT to buy up Ego (due to the sanity structure)' date=' narrowing that range[/quote']

Sure you can! There's nothing to say that you can't have a simply wonderful time playing a character who goes stark raving mad faster than the others. I've often played CoC with people who choose to start with a low SAN. It's fun.

 

I'd play CoC rather than convert it to Hero under those guidelines - I think you'll get a better result.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel that way, but I appreciate the feedback.

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

I guess I'm the dissenter. If you find at the end of all this that you prefer to go with CoC' date=' great, but the way what you are working toward appears to be dismissed is vaguely... disturbing. (lose 1-4 SAN).[/quote']

I appreciate the support and your many ideas. But I certainly don't mind negative feedback. I put the idea out there for everyone to comment and I had no illusions that everyone would find it to their liking.

 

I have recorded my SAN loss. Now I tremble with the knowledge of things better left unseen.

[GamePhil]

More Figured Characteristics!

 

Of course! I have just figured out the real reason Rod doesn't like these rules! You've added six, count them, six figured characteristics!

 

Four of them happen to go towards Skills, but nevertheless...

 

Just kidding, rj.

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

Is what you're gaining by doing it this way worth the extra work that you're doing?

I really didn't do a lot of extra work. So that's a yup.

 

I'm going to assume you have specific reasons for doing it this way' date=' but it's hard to tell exactly what they are from your postings, and I'm curious. If you'd like to tell us, I'm interested in hearing.[/quote']

In essence, I'm modifying the existing CoC character creation process for HERO.

I really don't think I'm doing anything really drastic. The HERO rules are the same. The only thing I've done is allot Character Points in two batches. The first to be spent on Characteristics. The second to be spent on everything else.

 

Also' date=' out of curiosity, have you tried it with the default Hero System rules?[/quote']

No. But I've lurked on PBEM and seen it tried. I did not at all like the fact that all of the characters had Characteristics I associate with professional athletes, major psychological issues before the game even started, and precious little focus on Skills.

I would like to avoid inflated Characteristics and a focus on combat. I'd very much like to avoid characters who are severely damaged before the game begins. There's nothing wrong with a character having a terrible past, but having 25 points in Psych Lims before the first Cthulhu Mythos beasty even enters the story..? Not interested.

 

Edited' date=' after further reading: Utech, please don't think I'm trying to make you justify your mods. But it's hard to know what kind of feedback you're looking for without seeing some background.[/quote']

Not at all! I appreciate your feedback, Chris! I understand what you're asking for, and I don't mind. Honestly, though, I'm not sure how much more background there is to see.

[Utech]

Re: CoC HERO feedback sought

 

It's generally my opinion that if all you are going to do is port another game's rules into Hero as opposed to re-imagining it for Hero' date=' then you are usually better off just playing the other game.[/quote']

Understood. I disagree. I think we can agree to leave it at that.