question about VPP's

[NerdOfSteel]

Hi-

 

I'm brand new to Hero. Picked it up because I liked the way the book looked and I liked the notion of one set of rules for building everything. I'm getting ready to try my first session with it, a conversion of my current campaign from D20 Modern to Hero. But I'm butting up against a question about how to handle one of my PC's.

 

The setting's something like a cross between Unknown Armies and Angel. I've got a player who's a pretty typical magic user. It seems that Variable Power Pools are the best way to handle spellcasting but I'm at a loss to see what the disadvantages are. What keeps my player from having a virtually unlimited number spells (powers) to pull from? And why wouldn't all my players use VPP's, load them up with tons of nifty powers, and then just pick and choose between phases? Is there a disadvantage to having VPP's instead of individual powers?

 

Thanks for your help.

[JmOz]

The disadvantages to a VPP are that they cost more than the normal power (For one that can be changed as a 0 phase with out a skill roll is 2.5 times as expensive as the powers you will be able to use in it)

 

Also as a starting GM i would not allow VPP's but that is your call

[Lord Liaden]

No question, a Variable Power Pool can unbalance a game worse than almost any other power construct. It needs to be watched carefully so that the character doesn't always pull out a power that ruins your current scenario.

 

The biggest disadvantage to a VPP versus other constructs is cost. In its basic form the framework takes time out of combat to change between Powers; you have to buy a Skill or apply Advantages to change powers in combat, and to make changing powers a zero-Phase action, whereas any other Power Framework allows for that automatically. Its great versatility makes up for that, though.

 

In my campaigns characters don't all buy VPP unless their concept warrants that kind of versatility. You as GM have the right to say, "No, that's not appropriate for my campaign."

 

One thing you can try is to have the player define a particular SFX that his VPP is limited to, and adjudicate whether any power he comes up with fits within the SFX. That may be worth a Limitation on the Control Cost.

 

Another approach that I've found useful with wizards and the like is to have the player write up all the spells from his pool that his character knows and has access to. The list can be as long as the player likes (short of a legal brief), but he can only use the spells on the list. If his character wants to develop a new spell he has to research it between adventures. If the list is short enough it might justify a Limitation, "Known Spells Only" (usually in published books as -1/4).

 

It may be nasty of me, but if a player with this type of VPP and a really long list takes more than a minute to find the spell he wants to use, I've ruled that he missed his Phase due to indecision.

[Talon]

The other thing to remember is that just because it can be done in the rules doesn't mean that it should be allowed in the campaign. My suggestion would be to take a look at Fantasy Hero, which talks a lot about how to limit spellcasters to achieve the campaign flavor you want.

[Stray Cat]

Good ideas all. Can't beat what these guys have already said.

 

But I would point out that multipowers can make for good spellbooks. I've played with players whose characters use themed multipowers as tomes that once belonged to past sorcerors.

 

It not only builds flavor, but also can give an estimation of the power levels of said authors of the ancient (or not-so-ancient sometimes) grimoires.

 

Cat

[JMHammer]

A few thoughts on VPPs

 

I've seen the following Limitation applied to the control cost of Variable Power Pools on published characters:

 

Only Magic (-1/4)

 

Now, I'm pretty lenient when it comes to building powers as long as the builder has defined his effect and is just trying to reproduce it accurately. (Some of you might recall, for example, that in supers campaigns I don't restrict the active points in a power within a VPP to the number of real pool points in the VPP.) But this Limitation can't really be worth -1/4. I mean, you can do anything with magic, especially the magic power pools on super-types in a Champions-style campaign. And a Limitation that doesn't, isn't.

 

Um, anyway, generally speaking if you can represent a character's abilities well without the use of a VPP then do so. Only allow the character to use a VPP if it's needed to represent the character's abilities, or if a Multipower or other construct is just too screamingly inefficient as a way of building them. (Usually - depending on special effect etc. - 5 or more "m" flexible Multipower slots or 10 or more "u" fixed Multipower slots will prove to be more expensive than a VPP, especially one defined as "just these 5 basic types of powers using this one special effect.")

 

Players who start with a character conception of "I can do anything I want anytime I want," should be gently encouraged to come up with something else. Green Lantern is manageable, since you can define with the player exactly what his limits are. (Yes, GL can fly FTL in outer space and carry others along with him safely. No, GL can't change a man into a frog.) Cosmo The Cosmic Man is not manageable because he has no limits except the points he purchased. (Cosmo can do anything he wants as long as he has the points in his VPP to pay for it... BLECH! Ditto and double BLECH! to such published characters as Takofones whose VPPs are pretty much defined that way, too. Might as well just say that GM fiat defines what happens, and of course this is fine in limited cases for NPCs but simply can't be permitted for PCs.)

 

Players who are wizards with huge numbers of spells, or mentalists who can use a very wide range of powers with telepathic and/or telekinetic special effects, are good candidates for VPPs. However, if your group is just starting with The Hero System, give them Multipowers or other constructs first; then allow them to rewrite their characters with VPPs after a few sessions when they have the hang of the rules.

 

Lord Liaden's suggestion about allowing only those powers that have already been written to be used in combat is critical unless you want your game to slow to a crawl. Make an exception when your player needs to do something critical, like defeat the master villain once and for all, or save the world, or something equally significant. But it's otherwise an excellent way to keep things moving while allowing the player to use his character with the flexibility he paid for with the VPP.

 

John H

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

It may be nasty of me, but if a player with this type of VPP and a really long list takes more than a minute to find the spell he wants to use, I've ruled that he missed his Phase due to indecision.

 

OK, maybe I'm just a GM and player, but for the most part I don't think it should take a player more than a minute to decide his next combat action (the only time losing a phase really hurts), VPP or not, and I see no problem telling a player who can't make up his mind that he's missed his opportunity. Special dispensation for newer players still learning the ropes (who likely don't have VPP's anyway), but it's generally unfair to everyone else to let one guy hold up the game for inordinate periods of time.

 

How would your players react if the GM took even ONE minute to decide each NPC's next action in combat?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A few thoughts on VPPs

 

Originally posted by JMHammer

I've seen the following Limitation applied to the control cost of Variable Power Pools on published characters:

 

Only Magic (-1/4)

 

Now, I'm pretty lenient when it comes to building powers as long as the builder has defined his effect and is just trying to reproduce it accurately. (Some of you might recall, for example, that in supers campaigns I don't restrict the active points in a power within a VPP to the number of real pool points in the VPP.) But this Limitation can't really be worth -1/4. I mean, you can do anything with magic, especially the magic power pools on super-types in a Champions-style campaign. And a Limitation that doesn't, isn't.

 

 

I would allow this limitation in Champions, but it must have meaning. In this case, to me, it means all powers are subject to any adjustment power targetting Magic (big deal ) and the ONLY valid special effect is magic. No "Magic Flames" against Cold Dude, no "Magic Silver" against the werewolf, no "Magical Stake" through the heart of the vampire. It can LOOK like flames, but it's pure magic so it triggers no vulnerability. And no Variable Special Effect powers either - that's off your list if you want the +1/4.

 

If the player wants to limit it more, a greater limitation may be available (eg. only magical attack powers), but if you want a limit for "magic only", it's magic ONLY..

 

Um, anyway, generally speaking if you can represent a character's abilities well without the use of a VPP then do so. Only allow the character to use a VPP if it's needed to represent the character's abilities, or if a Multipower or other construct is just too screamingly inefficient as a way of building them. (Usually - depending on special effect etc. - 5 or more "m" flexible Multipower slots or 10 or more "u" fixed Multipower slots will prove to be more expensive than a VPP, especially one defined as "just these 5 basic types of powers using this one special effect.")

 

Unless you have limitations. The inability to ever reduce the cost of the base pool can be frustrating (not so much in your campaign if you allow AP to exceed the pool), although limits do mean you can have more powers in your VPP at one time. But I agree there is a point at which your "multipower" would be better off as a VPP. I also agree that a listing of "standard powers" should be mandatory.

 

Players who start with a character conception of "I can do anything I want anytime I want," should be gently encouraged to come up with something else. Green Lantern is manageable, since you can define with the player exactly what his limits are. (Yes, GL can fly FTL in outer space and carry others along with him safely. No, GL can't change a man into a frog.) Cosmo The Cosmic Man is not manageable because he has no limits except the points he purchased. (Cosmo can do anything he wants as long as he has the points in his VPP to pay for it... BLECH! Ditto and double BLECH! to such published characters as Takofones whose VPPs are pretty much defined that way, too. Might as well just say that GM fiat defines what happens, and of course this is fine in limited cases for NPCs but simply can't be permitted for PCs.)

 

If it's a legit conception (eg. he's the Silver Surfer), maybe. But virtually every character with a "cosmic VPP" in the comics (outside the very potent NPC's you note) has some things his VPP can't do, even if it's just a restricted special effect.

 

Characters who can do anything get pretty boring, although it might work in a campaign with only one or two players. I find the power gamers can generally be put off with the cost - "pure cosmic" = 2.5 points per point in the pool. That's a maximum of 140 points in the pool, and that assumes all your characteristics are 10. Sure, you can raise them, but you're seriously wasting points putting things you'll virtually always have up through a VPP.

 

NOTE: For the same price, another player could have a 20 d6 EB, no END, +50/+50 resistant armor, a 20 DEX and a 5 Speed. He'll be pretty effective most of the time too - and YOU don't have enough VPP for either the EB or the Armor - they're both 150 AP. OIHID and he frees up some more points to spend!

 

[No, I doubt either of those characters will be in my campaign any time soon.]

 

Players who are wizards with huge numbers of spells, or mentalists who can use a very wide range of powers with telepathic and/or telekinetic special effects, are good candidates for VPPs. However, if your group is just starting with The Hero System, give them Multipowers or other constructs first; then allow them to rewrite their characters with VPPs after a few sessions when they have the hang of the rules.

 

I see no problem allowing a character to change from a multi to a VPP as his number of slots increases. That's not so much a rewqrite as an acceptance of the relation between multi's and VPP's.

 

Lord Liaden's suggestion about allowing only those powers that have already been written to be used in combat is critical unless you want your game to slow to a crawl. Make an exception when your player needs to do something critical, like defeat the master villain once and for all, or save the world, or something equally significant. But it's otherwise an excellent way to keep things moving while allowing the player to use his character with the flexibility he paid for with the VPP.

 

Time limits to act - always crucial if you want any happy players! Yeah, the guy you rush may be steamed, but the other players don't want to wait 45 minutes while he re-reads FREd to design his perfect power.

 

A compromise approach is to carry a chart of sorts (eg. this many points gets this many DC's with this much in advantages - I've got 60 points available; AP is +1/2; that's 8d6 AP). If the player can determine that in 10 seconds or less (ideally before his phase!) , that's fine

[JMHammer]

-1/4 Limitation on VPP: Magic Only

 

Hugh said:

I would allow this limitation in Champions, but it must have meaning. In this case, to me, it means all powers are subject to any adjustment power targetting Magic (big deal ) and the ONLY valid special effect is magic. No "Magic Flames" against Cold Dude, no "Magic Silver" against the werewolf, no "Magical Stake" through the heart of the vampire. It can LOOK like flames, but it's pure magic so it triggers no vulnerability. And no Variable Special Effect powers either - that's off your list if you want the +1/4.

 

If the player wants to limit it more, a greater limitation may be available (eg. only magical attack powers), but if you want a limit for "magic only", it's magic ONLY..

 

Just to pick one character that I sort of remember without a book in front of me:

 

Witchcraft (from Champions) has a smallish VPP. Her VPP has this -1/4 "Only Magic" Limitation. One of the defined "spells" for her VPP is her magic dagger, built as a small physical killing attack with some extra damage against evil nasties.

 

So, if I understand you correctly, this would not trigger Paper Man's 2xStun and 2xBody from blades and other "sharp" killing attacks because it's just a "magic" attack. Similarly, if she put together a Drain REC, it wouldn't trigger Twiggy Frail's 2xeffect from Drains/Transfers/Dispels/Suppresses.

 

Makes sense and I suppose it's worth the -1/4 Limitation. If so, it might even be worth more... Works for me; thanks for the explanation!

 

John H

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: -1/4 Limitation on VPP: Magic Only

 

Originally posted by JMHammer

Just to pick one character that I sort of remember without a book in front of me:

 

Witchcraft (from Champions) has a smallish VPP. Her VPP has this -1/4 "Only Magic" Limitation. One of the defined "spells" for her VPP is her magic dagger, built as a small physical killing attack with some extra damage against evil nasties.

 

So, if I understand you correctly, this would not trigger Paper Man's 2xStun and 2xBody from blades and other "sharp" killing attacks because it's just a "magic" attack. Similarly, if she put together a Drain REC, it wouldn't trigger Twiggy Frail's 2xeffect from Drains/Transfers/Dispels/Suppresses.

 

Makes sense and I suppose it's worth the -1/4 Limitation. If so, it might even be worth more... Works for me; thanks for the explanation!

 

John H

 

Yes to the first - it's magic so it has no other special effect - her magic dagger would be pure magic, and not a blade of any sort.

 

No to the second - this is still a Drain, so a character who is especially susceptible to Drains (or PD damage, or mental attacks) would still take double effect.

 

Essentially, the mechanics still underlie the powers, but the only special effect is Magic.