Characteristic inflation

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

And in this case, top out at SPD 3? And top out defenses at PD6 ED6?

 

 

So bricks pay double for everything above 15?

 

At least it will stop the droves of martial artists that buy STR to 23 or 25, and rather than buying brickisness, everyone is better off investing in flexible VPPs anyway.

 

Two general comments on this thread. First I agree that characteristic inflation is a serious problem and an important topic to discuss. Second, I agree that published NPCs, races, beasts etc. are the main thing driving it, especially for supers, because you see what the NPCs are and you know what you have to do; but I also have to call attention to weapon STR minima.

 

I notice this, because I'm playing a gun bunny in an unusual psionic teens Dark Champions game, where because we are teens the gamemaster has very rightly limited characteristics, especially STR. This has led to my running headllong into how oddly chosen the STR minima for various guns are, and mainly how high they often are. For example, any kind of Kalashnikov has a STR minimum of 14. The wielders of these demanding weapons must be rare and extraordinary people, almost as powerful as a human can be without paying double points for being some kind of burly super-freak. Either that, or something is wrong - wrong in a way that presses lightning-handed trigger-pullers to buy enough brawn to make wrestlers and weightlifters feel considerably less special than they should be.

 

Most people in the world that use Kalashnikovs can't hit anything anyway. An OCV penalty for not having enough STR seems right...verisimilitude and all that....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

And in this case, top out at SPD 3? And top out defenses at PD6 ED6?

 

 

So bricks pay double for everything above 15?

 

At least it will stop the droves of martial artists that buy STR to 23 or 25, and rather than buying brickisness, everyone is better off investing in flexible VPPs anyway.

 

Two general comments on this thread. First I agree that characteristic inflation is a serious problem and an important topic to discuss. Second, I agree that published NPCs, races, beasts etc. are the main thing driving it, especially for supers, because you see what the NPCs are and you know what you have to do; but I also have to call attention to weapon STR minima.

 

I notice this, because I'm playing a gun bunny in an unusual psionic teens Dark Champions game, where because we are teens the gamemaster has very rightly limited characteristics, especially STR. This has led to my running headllong into how oddly chosen the STR minima for various guns are, and mainly how high they often are. For example, any kind of Kalashnikov has a STR minimum of 14. The wielders of these demanding weapons must be rare and extraordinary people, almost as powerful as a human can be without paying double points for being some kind of burly super-freak. Either that, or something is wrong - wrong in a way that presses lightning-handed trigger-pullers to buy enough brawn to make wrestlers and weightlifters feel considerably less special than they should be.

 

Well, here's one way of doing it: you 'soft cap' (for a heroic game) everything at 15 and you can pick one characteristic that soft caps at 20. I'm just musing here, but it seems that that would tend toward exceptional characteristics being exceptional.

 

Figured characteristics are more problematic (but are we going to be seeing them int eh same way in 6th?)

 

Another thought is that (to address the point you make), if you wanted to you could set multiple break points: characteristic costs double at 15, quadruple at 20, one characteristic doubels at 20, quadruples at 25 BUT limited characteristics (like additional strength bought JUST so you can wield that whacking great assault weapon) are not subject to NCM, making it much cheaper to buy up enough strength (it ain't the muscle, it's the posture) to go for the nasty bang bang.

 

So to speak.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I use the double then quadruple then 8x etc on all soft caps in my games. It seems to work pretty well. People only heavily invest in things they think are fundamental or important.

[David Blue]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Most people in the world that use Kalashnikovs can't hit anything anyway. An OCV penalty for not having enough STR seems right...verisimilitude and all that....

Would the same be true for wielders of the M-2 Carbine, with STR 14 also required for that? And would something similar be true of wielders of M16s, with STR 13 required?

 

And what of The Greatest Generation, Herculean monsters whose gigantic thews enabled them to use the M-1 Garand, STR Min 15?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Would the same be true for wielders of the M-2 Carbine, with STR 14 also required for that? And would something similar be true of wielders of M16s, with STR 13 required?

 

And what of The Greatest Generation, Herculean monsters whose gigantic thews enabled them to use the M-1 Garand, STR Min 15?

 

Good points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Would the same be true for wielders of the M-2 Carbine, with STR 14 also required for that? And would something similar be true of wielders of M16s, with STR 13 required?

 

And what of The Greatest Generation, Herculean monsters whose gigantic thews enabled them to use the M-1 Garand, STR Min 15?

 

While I agree with the issue, perhaps only those gigantic thewed Herculean monsters were able to use the weapon in question without an OCV penalty. Someone with a 10 STR could still fire the weapon, but the kick throws his aim off for -1 OCV.

[Maur]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Some of this goes back to the problem of the rate of hits in HERO vs real firefights and such. Even our well trained military units fire lots of rounds and don't hit a lot when they are in close quarters fighting. Look at the stats for the LA bank robbery where the suspects were in body armor with fully automatic weapons. How many shots were fired and how many people were actually injured? IIRC the ratio was greater than 100:1 (100 bullets fired to 1 casualty).

 

When they are trapped and dealing with a mob (e.g. Black Hawk Down) they are just lethal because a crowd can't maneuver or hide like a person can.

[Vulcan]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

While I agree with the issue' date=' perhaps only those gigantic thewed Herculean monsters were able to use the weapon in question [b']without an OCV penalty[/b]. Someone with a 10 STR could still fire the weapon, but the kick throws his aim off for -1 OCV.

 

Not to mention that many of them either fired from a braced postion around/behind cover, or a prone one to minimize exposure.

 

Since they didn't have rPD...

[David Blue]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Some of this goes back to the problem of the rate of hits in HERO vs real firefights and such.

I don't think it does.

 

My point is not that firearms aren't accurate enough. I might even question the OCV and Range Modifier bonuses they make available, except that I don't want to change the topic.

 

My point is that published weapon STR minima, like published villains, beasts and races, prod players to buy up certain characteristics and to regard the allegedly "normal" 8 stat or even the "outstanding normal" 10 stat as wimpy and insufficient. That fuels characteristic inflation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I don't think it does.

 

My point is not that firearms aren't accurate enough. I might even question the OCV and Range Modifier bonuses they make available, except that I don't want to change the topic.

 

My point is that published weapon STR minima, like published villains, beasts and races, prod players to buy up certain characteristics and to regard the allegedly "normal" 8 stat or even the "outstanding normal" 10 stat as wimpy and insufficient. That fuels characteristic inflation.

 

I don't disagree with this - for some reason, players balk from anything that says "penalty". If we dropped the basic roll to hit from 11 to 8, gave a +3 bonus OCV to HTH and natural attacks, dropped the STR min on guns and gave them a +1 OCV modifier (increased all OCV modifiers by 1), then that 10 STR character would hit on a 9- instead of an 11-, and be quite happy with that result. But when we tell him he takes a -1 OCV penalty because he can't make the STR Min, with the result he'll hit on a 10- (better odds than set out above), he wants a higher STR because he just can't stand taking a penalty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Not to mention that many of them either fired from a braced postion around/behind cover' date=' or a prone one to minimize exposure.[/quote']

 

Two handed and braced brings that STR minimum down quite a bit, doesn't it? But, of course, PC's want to run in, guns blazing. Then they complain that the STR min applying a penalty when they do that is "unrealistic"

[Vulcan]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I don't disagree with this - for some reason' date=' players balk from anything that says "penalty". If we dropped the basic roll to hit from 11 to 8, gave a +3 bonus OCV to HTH and natural attacks, dropped the STR min on guns and gave them a +1 OCV modifier (increased all OCV modifiers by 1), then that 10 STR character would hit on a 9- instead of an 11-, and be quite happy with that result. But when we tell him he takes a -1 OCV penalty because he can't make the STR Min, with the result he'll hit on a 10- (better odds than set out above), he wants a higher STR because he just can't stand taking a penalty.[/quote']

 

... Aww, heck. You're right. And now that you point that out, I remember doing it a LOT...

[Vulcan]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Two handed and braced brings that STR minimum down quite a bit' date=' doesn't it? But, of course, PC's want to run in, guns blazing. Then they complain that the STR min applying a penalty when they do that is "unrealistic" [/quote']

 

I played Cyberpunk before I got started on HEROS. And in that combat system, believe me. Cover is your friend.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I don't disagree with this - for some reason' date=' players balk from anything that says "penalty".[/quote']

 

That's because, in many people's minds, "penalty" impllies that they're doing something wrong.

 

Kelcyron

[archermoo]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I played Cyberpunk before I got started on HEROS.

 

On an entirely unrelated note, just to satisfy my curiousity: Why the extraneous "S" in Hero?

[Vulcan]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I used to do HEROs to denote the HERO System (rather than typing the whole thing out, I'm not a very fast typist), but a guy on the 6E thread complained that it should be HEROS. Don't know what differnce 's' vs. 'S' makes, but there you are.

[Susano]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

On an entirely unrelated note' date=' just to satisfy my curiousity: Why the extraneous "S" in Hero?[/quote']

 

Maybe it's like OREOES?

[archermoo]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I used to do HEROs to denote the HERO System (rather than typing the whole thing out' date=' I'm not a very fast typist), but a guy on the 6E thread complained that it should be HEROS. Don't know what differnce 's' vs. 'S' makes, but there you are.[/quote']

 

I actually meant why tack an s (capitalized or not) on the end of Hero in the first place. I've only even seen a few people that feel the need to pluralize Hero when they talk about it, and all of them have been here on the boards. Most people just refer to it as Hero (or HERO). So I just figured I'd ask about the extra letter.

[Maur]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I used to do HEROs to denote the HERO System (rather than typing the whole thing out' date=' I'm not a very fast typist), but a guy on the 6E thread complained that it should be HEROS. Don't know what differnce 's' vs. 'S' makes, but there you are.[/quote']

 

A lower case s usually denotes a plural. E.g. 70s for the Seventies. An upper case S makes it part of the name or acronym.

[schir1964]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

I don't disagree with this - for some reason' date=' players balk from anything that says "penalty".[/quote']

That's because, in many people's minds, "penalty" implies that they're doing something wrong.

 

Kelcyron

I think it is may be more analytical than that considering the type of players that the Hero System attracts.

 

The skill system uses the 3d6 roll resolution. This gives natural range of results from 3 to 18. Any bonus or penalty moves the range endpoints up and down accordingly. Thus, any skill that has a built in -1 Penalty automatically means that starting range of results is shifted to 4 to 19. This means a perfect success roll is impossible and total failure now includes 18 and 19 (two of the 15 possible results). Unless the GM is using some House Rule to allow for Auto Successes or Failures on natural results, any fixed penalized roll starts out with perfect success being impossible (without any non-fixed modifiers in play). I think this is what makes the skill leave a bad taste in the player's mouth (so to speak), an why Hugh's alternative skill more acceptable.

 

But this is just pure theoretical opinion of players psyches in general. (8^D)

 

Just A Guess

 

- Christopher Mullins

[SteveZilla]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

ALSO, and I know we shouldn't get hung up on labels (you try telling Saatchi and Saatchi that) but Normal Characteristic Maximum is extremely unfortunate for two reasons.

 

...

 

2. It is plain not true - it is not a maximum but a break point at which the returns on your investment diminish. In fact we should call it the PDR (Point of Diminishing Returns). At least until we find something else in the system that needs that acronym.

 

Perhaps because anything over 20, while not "Super", is also no longer in the realm of "Normal"?

 

Another thought is that (to address the point you make), if you wanted to you could set multiple break points: characteristic costs double at 15, quadruple at 20, one characteristic doubels at 20, quadruples at 25 BUT limited characteristics (like additional strength bought JUST so you can wield that whacking great assault weapon) are not subject to NCM, making it much cheaper to buy up enough strength (it ain't the muscle, it's the posture) to go for the nasty bang bang.

 

So to speak.

 

So if I were converting my Shadowrun character to Hero Sytem, how much STR - Only To Wield Weapons would I need to buy to use my Panther Cannon?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

The skill system uses the 3d6 roll resolution. This gives natural range of results from 3 to 18. Any bonus or penalty moves the range endpoints up and down accordingly. Thus' date=' any skill that has a built in -1 Penalty automatically means that starting range of results is shifted to 4 to 19. This means a perfect success roll is impossible and total failure now includes 18 and 19 (two of the 15 possible results). Unless the GM is using some House Rule to allow for Auto Successes or Failures on natural results, any fixed penalized roll starts out with perfect success being impossible (without any non-fixed modifiers in play).[/quote']

 

5ER, p371, under The Basic Attack Roll: "A result of 3 on an Attack Roll always suceeds... A result of 18 always fails..." +/- modifiers affect the result, not the roll (the book is worded a bit poorly here IMO) because they affect the target for success, not the actual roll of the dice.

 

I couldn't find any similar rule of 3/18 for Skills, however.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

The skill system uses the 3d6 roll resolution. This gives natural range of results from 3 to 18. Any bonus or penalty moves the range endpoints up and down accordingly. Thus, any skill that has a built in -1 Penalty automatically means that starting range of results is shifted to 4 to 19. This means a perfect success roll is impossible and total failure now includes 18 and 19 (two of the 15 possible results).

I'm not sure that's correct. I believe the rules state that only a natural roll of '18' is an automatic failure, so the penalty does not increase the odds of an automatic failure.

[Susano]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

5ER, p371, under The Basic Attack Roll: "A result of 3 on an Attack Roll always suceeds... A result of 18 always fails..." +/- modifiers affect the result, not the roll (the book is worded a bit poorly here IMO) because they affect the target for success, not the actual roll of the dice.

 

I couldn't find any similar rule of 3/18 for Skills, however.

 

The Ultimate Skill pretty much says the same thing. And we've always played that a 3 or 18 applied to Skills as well.

[schir1964]

Re: Characteristic inflation

 

Sorry, probably missing in 5th Edition. I don't have revised. But it would make sense for that to be the default rule.

 

- Christopher Mullins