So Dr. Destroyer walks into the UN...

[assault]

Well, to be honest, all I have seen so far is testimonies to the brilliance of the Doctor's plan.

 

A few android duplicates in the right place, and people start saying things that boil down to "we had to destroy civilisation in order to save it."

 

What I really want to know is: is Dr D really behind this, or is it Mechanon? After all, the extinction of humanity does seem to be on the agenda.

 

Of course, a lot of the problem is that most of us aren't really world-conquering geniuses. Apparently this can make comprehending the Master Plan a little difficult.

 

 

Alan

[Polaris]

As to the destruction of Detroit, I do not have the Millenium City book.. this could be prior to that occurring, or it could be that he would not do it (given his present plan).

 

Polaris

[Deacon Blues]

Originally posted by Polaris

Do they continue to fight Dr. Destroyer (at least one poster suggested that if Dr. Destroyer is improving the lives of these people, then the heroes should leave it alone)?

I originally read this as "poster," meaning "glossy paper with a picture mounted on a wall," not "message board participant." I had some great ideas for pro-Doctor propaganda pieces as a result:

 

A stylized drawing of the Doctor standing with his arm on the shoulder of a young African man in fatigues carrying an assault rifle, with a gaggle of hopeful-looking peasant children behind him. Caption: Join Me In DESTROYING Poverty!

 

The Doctor in flight, smashing a British bomber jet with an armored fist while shooting down several missiles with an energy blast. A desert and several mosque minarets in the background set the scene as distinctly Mid-Eastern. Caption: Join Me In DESTROYING Injustice!

 

Dr. Destroyer, standing with his arms crossed in front of a South American rainforest, with several American soldiers touting AK-47s facing him in shock in the extreme foreground. Caption: Your Reign of Terror Stops Where Mine Begins! (okay, that one's somewhat ironic)

[Polaris]

Deacon Blues,

 

LOL!! :)

 

Polaris

[Tim]

This whole plotline sounds much more like Istal Vahn (sp?) than Dr. D.

AND she could easily get the time to speak at the UN (not being a wanted murderer) and she can bring in much more than 20,000 (I think that was the number being bantied about) crack troops.

[Tim]

This whole plotline sounds much more like Istal Vahn (sp?) than Dr. D.

AND she could easily get the time to speak at the UN (not being a wanted murderer) and she can bring in much more than 20,000 (I think that was the number being bantied about) crack troops.

[Polaris]

Tim,

 

You certainly could use the Empress of a Billion dimensions. I would personally use Dr. D because of the characters' background and knowlege of him, and save the beyond awesome resources of Istal Vahn (sp?) for another story.

 

Polaris

[Tim]

But this gives her a base in our deminsion, so she can build up her forces for the conquering of the entire galaxy. Just think Rwanda joins her and all of a sudden they are competing against NASA in the space race (and probably winning)

[Tim]

But this gives her a base in our deminsion, so she can build up her forces for the conquering of the entire galaxy. Just think Rwanda joins her and all of a sudden they are competing against NASA in the space race (and probably winning)

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Polaris

You certainly could use the Empress of a Billion dimensions. I would personally use Dr. D because of the characters' background and knowlege of him, and save the beyond awesome resources of Istal Vahn (sp?) for another story.

 

Besides, it's something Doctor Doom would do, not Dormammu. It should be Dr. Destroyer.

 

I only did that first sentence to say Do several times...

[GamePhil]

With a duck, a priest, and a rabbi...

 

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable comic book plot. Probably totally implausible in the real world, yes, but how about this: Destroyer has Menton on his side for this project (called in a big favor), subtly manipulating the minds of the UN and others. Knowing that something is fishy, but unable to do anything about it without proof, our heroes must stand by, helpless. Of course, the Destroyer eventually proves an able ruler, and then the heroes can do nothing because more people would be hurt. Or, they would be forced to do the unpopular but right thing... And so on.

 

Of course, the two are using each other: Destroyer's full plans will come into fruition later, while Menton believes he is using Destroyer as a distraction from his more subtle machinations. And they both know this. It could get hairy.

[MisterD]

And while Dr. D. and Menton are using eachother, Foxbat is rubbing his hands together.

 

"Heee heeee. Part 124b subsection 76zeta of my master plan is working nicely."

 

 

Ps I did the mistake of saving my Avatar as my screen background and tiled it.

 

wow

 

 

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by MisterD

And while Dr. D. and Menton are using eachother, Foxbat is rubbing his hands together.

 

This goes without saying, of course

[Thirdbase]

So if I understood this correctly, Dr. D has done here that is illegal. The heroes could go after him for past offenses, but what he is currently doing is perfectly legal.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hi again,

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Please remember, as harsh as this may sound, the US has destroyed a whole lot more cities than Dr. Destroyer has... the US worked with some of the worse despots in modern history... and the US has killed a whole lot of people too.

 

Nation-states have always held that other nation-states have the right to do these things in time of war, following certain rules, and in their own defense or in other prescribed circumstances. None has ever acknowledged that private citizens, working under no color of national authority, have any right to do so. Such persons have always been regarded, at most, as bandit chieftains. If Destroyer could have submerged his ego for long enough to pretend to be the champion of some "oppressed people", he could probably have garnered a fair bit of support. In a sense, that's exactly what this UN gambit of yours is. If you're setting things in standard "current-day" CU, though, it would already seem far too late for that. He has too much blood on his hands for less "altruistic" reasons, and they know him too well already to fall for such an act.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

I would suggest that UNTIL and others would do their best to not allow an attack within the headquarters of the UN, perhaps especially against a member's spokesperson/representative.

 

I'm sure he'll be guarded at least as well as Lee Harvey Oswald was...

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Nations that understand that economic stability is one of the main determinants of political stability, and political stability helps keep them in power.

 

I have no doubt that Third World rulers would happily accept economic assistance and any other assistance Destroyer would offer them. I have huge doubts that they would bargain away their actual power to get such assistance, though.

 

Originally posted by Polaris:

Well said... These "cunning and ruthless veterans of vicious political infighting" would likely be quite willing to keep themselves atop their societies, and atop their regions even if it means selling their souls to Dr. Destroyer

 

Thank you ! But the question I have in mind is, would they really BE "atop their societies" if Destroyer is the one giving the real orders? I don't think they would be, and I don't think they would think they would be, either. They would go from enjoying both the trappings and the actuality of power, to just having the trappings (at most), and I'm sure they'd know it. And without the power, you only keep the trappings at the whim of whoever does have the power; I'm sure they'd know this too, and it wouldn't please them.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Just like they do it now to the US and other world powers. The idea of power hungry dictators that want absolute rule selling their allegiance and service to a bigger power is not a new concept.

 

The US isn't ruling any nations except ones that they've outright conquered, and they certainly seem leery about staying in even those for long enough to give a reasonable expectation of long-term stability. Yes, nations cozy up to superpower sugar-daddys. That's a far cry from letting them take over. The US can't even get their clients the Saudis to openly allow Christian chaplains on US bases on Saudi soil. Do you think that is the level of control Destroyer will be satisfied with, the level that will let him carry out his grandiose plans?

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Those, such as North Korea and Iran, that have observed that the US treats nations with things like WMD MUCH BETTER than the US treats nations that do not have such an ability to hurt the US. As a nation's ability to hurt the US increases, the US becomes more interested in "diplomacy", and is less willing to force its will on them.

 

Only two strategic opponents of the US have had nuclear weapons capability before the North Koreans: the Soviet Union and China. Neither is a nation that the US has any chance at all of conquering in open war, whether they have WMD or not. Yet even these two nations have been placed under various none-too-subtle diplomatic and political pressures from the US. For North Korea to presume that a few nukes, for which they have no delivery systems that can threaten the continental US, would put them in the same league as Russia or China is pure idiocy (which is not to say they don't presume exactly that).

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Dr. Destroyer commit "outright murder"? See your first paragraph... any leader that would not believe a threat that he would be willing to murder them probably should be removed from the gene pool before he/she breeds

 

Exactly, now this I could believe. Destroyer murdering Third World leaders and taking over their countries. What I have more trouble buying is the idea that he would bother giving them an alternative (especially one involving nominal equality or near-equality with him), or bother with the whole diplomatic rigamarole.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Lesser Developed Countries (or LDCs) have not tried to implement the conclusions from the OAU (Organization for African Unity). To do so would threaten military retribution from the US and/or others (ala Congo when they threatened our industrial diamond supply in the early 1960s). The situation would be changed when the US would face massive retalliation for attacking a member of the new world order

 

I have a very hard time seeing that any internal economic policy short of outright thievery (uncompensated "nationalization") or the breaking of international treaties would result in war. The UN intervention in the Congo in the early '60s had more to do with mutinies, coups, secessions, and rebellions than diamonds. And if Destroyer really does already have a retaliatory capability massive enough to deter the US, why is he even bothering with diplomacy and Third World nations?

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

The 20,000 you refer to are up to 300 points a piece! That is a bit more than just a division of standard grunt troops. I am unsure of your campaign, but in our campaign that would be EXTREMELY difficult to confront.

 

300 points is higher than the Low-Powered Superheroic range. But these troops are not going to be superheroes, they are going to be agents with above-average agent equipment. SPD in the 3-4 range, defenses 9-15, with about half of that Resistant. And real-world militaries are hardly ill-equipped themselves. A single automatic grenade launcher, of the sort mounted on every US Marine amtrac, as well as many other vehicles, runs about 120 Active Points. Destroyer's Black Talons, with PD and ED 18, will stand up about as well as a real tank to a TOW missile (6d6 RKA AP, for about 12 BODY per hit to a Black Talon). Destroyer's toys may be superior individually, but so were German tanks and equipment in World War II. And I don't doubt that any forces opposed to Destroyer will have superhuman assistance of their own. Not necessarily "heroic" assistance, either; you yourself pointed out the willingness of governments to work with lowlifes at least temporarily in their own interest, and you also pointed out the opposition of VIPER and EUROSTAR to Destroyer... Brings to mind one of my favorite old comics, DC's Suicide Squad.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Over half of our Army right now is in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting such peasant conscripts.

 

They are not fighting conscripts, or any other soldiers; they are fighting terrorist cells. The troops are not there to fight a war - which they've already done, and very quickly - they are there to hunt down particular individuals, and keep Iraq intact until its own army can be rebuilt from a tool of the previous regime into something resembling a professional, apolitical force. They are not staying several years because they might suddenly lose the capital to enemy forces, they are staying because they expect it will take that long for the terrorists - who, hidden as they are among the civilian population, have the initiative - to launch enough attacks to deplete themselves into ineffectiveness. WIth a bit of luck, they'll get enough good intel to finish off the terrs quickly and get home before the worst-case dates that drive planning.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

The US could take any one, maybe two, of these 'peasant armies'... trying to attack too many more--while having to defend the US from the real threat that the US might be the real military target of Dr. Destroyer, or that VIPER or others may take advantage of the US being off fighting Dr. Destroyer cronie armies--would be outside of the capability of the US military for some time.

 

If the US Military were fool enough to concentrate on the peasant armies, that might be true. But they wouldn't. In your scenario, Destroyer himself is the true threat, and it is against him any real thrust would be directed.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Access to natural resources has long been determined by political and military means.

 

Control of governments has long been determined by political and military means. When those governments are in power, they either follow economic laws, or eventually implode on their own, without any need for external military action, usually wrecking the nation's economy in the process.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

This would seem to make Dr. Destroyer's plan more workable. If the US would not go to war over Dr. Destroyer raising the prices on these commodities, even if Dr. Destroyer has a monopoly and could therefore threaten the economic health of the US economy, then he would not need to worry so much about the military balance or calculations.

 

War would be fought with Destroyer, it would just have approximately zero to do with the price of diamonds, and everything to do with the man's previous actions.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Yes, it is sad... and if it was not so tragic that such wars happen, it would also be 'laughable'. However, we have fought wars over the price of oil. Was that laughable? We have fought wars over the price of industrial diamonds. Was that laughable? Governments (even our own) have fought wars over things that probably shouldn't have justified a war.

 

While there are those, arguing both for and against wars, who like to grossly oversimplify the actual reasons behind them, I don't think it can be truly said that any modern war was fought, in large measure, over the price of any commodity. Those started by democracies are typically fought to take dangerous men out of power, before they become even more dangerous, more powerful, and more of a threat. And the dangers these men represent are not generally economic in nature, but military. The memory of capitulation at the Rhineland, the Saar, and the Sudetenland, and the price paid for it, drives a lot of the thinking behind war in the West today.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

I would suggest that the people of many of the lesser developed world live in conditions no better, and often worse, than the Mississippi field hands you refer to.

 

I have no doubt that there are many in Third World lands living in truly appalling conditions. Most such unfortunates live in lands torn by war and rebellion. In more peaceful times, they may, it is true, be poor. But there is still a serious difference between someone who is as poor as a slave, and someone who is a slave. And in any case it is not "the people" Destroyer is dealing with, it is their rulers - unless you mean to have him leading popular rebellions.

 

Originally Posted by me and Polaris:

And the fact that many of these peoples won't put up with "strong leadership" from outsiders, even ones of the same skin color, is the cause of much of the trouble in many of these nations today.

 

[i am unsure what you mean by this section. Perhaps more explanation if you have a few moments... I would suggest that many people will follow leaders that can deliver a better life for them].

 

What I mean is, pardon my language, these people don't take crap from anyone. To me, this is, in general, an admirable trait. But it does fuel a lot of the violence that plagues the Third World today (and not just the Third World - see Ireland). And if they won't take it from their neighbors, why should they take it from a megalomaniacal white imperialist like Destroyer? Because he will kill them otherwise? That I could see, sometimes - but Third Worlders have their pride, too, and are no more cowardly than anyone else. Because he is sweet-talking them? I can hardly see this of either Destroyer or the Third Worlders. Because they're living better? Rating matters of pocketbook higher than matters of pride and honor is a thing for the decadent West, not proud emerging civilizations - if they were willing to do this, many of them would probably have been living better already without Destroyer's arrival.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

If Rwanda was part of the new world order, and intervening would threaten massive retaliation against US cities, I could about guarantee they'd NOT intervene. The US didn't want to intervene when doing so was fighting some of those 'peasants' you referred to earlier, why would we intervene if we were confronted with a truly deterring threat? I'm afraid I don't understand this one either...

 

Again, if Destroyer can really retaliate massively against First World nations, why does he need Third World puppets? And the US didn't intervene before because there was nothing and no one they cared about there. If Destroyer (or, in the real world, Osama Bin Laden) were to turn up in the middle of an otherwise identical massacre today, I can about assure you the US would be there in some fashion or other.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

I respect your opinion on that. Dr. Destroyer is a student of power, and brilliant beyond much comparison. He rarely likes to soil himself with the menial use of fighting to get what he wants. He is far more prone to use his mind than direct force to accomplish his desire of conquest (which is one of the things that makes him such a big threat). See page 9 of the CKC book for what I mean. A man of that brilliance would likely know that conquering the world, and then trying to hold it, would be a fool's game.

 

It would be a fool's game for lesser mortals. The intellect and will of Destroyer are not bound by such petty limitations! The Earth and its dimension are but the first step - if a slow-witted and tender-hearted alien such as Istvatha V'han can forge an interdimensional empire, what is to stop one with the matchless cunning and ruthless will of Destroyer from bettering it?

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

The people have already grown accustomed to being oppressed by dictatorships--a well trained population would be a good target for Destroyer.

 

This is in large measure true, with one caveat - a proud nationalism often fires the hearts of Third World peoples, and oppressions they might accept from a fellow-countryman trying to make his land a regional or world power, could be viewed quite differently when coming at the hand of a foreign ruler. This would indeed be one reason for Destroyer to work with local puppets, but the big question is, would his ego acknowledge this? I have my doubts.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

These nations have an enormous untapped power source (natural resources) that the US and others are highly dependent upon.

 

"Dependence" on natural resources is always a temporary state of affairs. The minute the resource becomes too scarce or expensive, alternatives become profitable, and people with an eye for those profits will be there ready to rake in the money. Short-term "supply shocks" are the most that can really be accomplished by manipulating the supplies of a given resource; these can cause chaos and political changes, and bring in some cash for those controlling the supply, but they'll hardly lead to mastery of the world.

 

By the way, a lot of my real objections, as I have noted, have to do with Destroyer and his egomania. Jeff's idea of replacing him with the Warlord has a lot of merit to me, in that respect. The Warlord seems a soldier at heart - I suspect he'd be happy as the chief conquering general of a world-ruler, not needing to take the trappings of leadership or the burdens of administering conquered teritory himself. The Warlord has also killed a lot of superheroes, but presumably much of his killing was done as a "legitimate" mercenary, in the service of recognized (if disliked) rulers, or even arguably in self-defense, protecting at least quasi-legal arms transfers (his business, after all) with unpopular international leaders.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

How about this, as the story goes on: The heroes, wanting to stop Dr. Destroyer move to try to "liberate" the people from the oppression of Dr. Destroyer. As they do so, they find a people that do not want "liberation". Their lives are being improved.

 

A lot of Germans didn't particularly care to be "liberated" from Hitler, especially by the Soviets. Many of their lives were a lot better under him than they were under Weimar fecklessness, the Depression, hyperinflation, and reparations to France and England. The view of many was that he was leading them to a truly independent destiny so glorious that jealous capitalist and communist alike ganged up on Germany to prevent it. But Hitler was not attacked for what he was doing to Germans, he was attacked for what he was doing to foreigners. The Germans got their "liberation" anyway, whether it improved or worsened their lives.

[Lupus]

I'm not going to jump in on the discussion above... except for a couple of bits.

 

For Destroyer's ability to wage war: it could be said that he's been getting ready for war with the world ever since Destruga. After all, he never intended to win the battle of Detroit - only to fake his death convincingly. So he's had nearly twenty years to refine his process. I can see that he'd have boosted his stockpiles of gear and improved it considerably, for the purposes of standing up to whatever he plans on doing. (Frankly, any plan that takes Destroyer that long to prepare for is going to be super-scary.) If his plan is to take on the world's conventional forces, then his stuff would be different than in the books. Scott makes a good point about the TOW missile. Therefore, the Black Talons would probably be redesigned to include an automatic missile deflection. Prolly joined by various artillery pieces that would target missile-wielding troops (TOWs take time to set up, yah?). That’s an example, anyway. Black Talons in my own world are re-designed to have two crewmembers (shamelessly ripped off from Wildstorm).

 

Now, as for the military... the US military in particular is incredibly powerful and flexible, but it’s a beast to run. It requires all kinds of support, co-ordination, and generally relies on having superior technology and training as compared to its opposition. At least, it has post-WWII. A lot of military practice would have to be revised. Destroyer, being on the smart side of average, would know he’d have to target smart. Don’t try to fight the entire military machine. Just make sure enough spanners are thrown in the works. Begin by claiming the real high ground - space. As soon as hostilities begin, blow away all spy satellites, destroy NASA’s space station, and target Gateway in the event that it has any military activity (including surveillance). Then start firing lasers and dropping nails on aircraft carriers. Take out carriers, take out surveillance overflights, take out satellites. An intelligence-blind and air-power-denied US army is a very different beast. Not impotent, for sure. It’s still the scariest beast out there. But without eyes and ears, its strategic operations are limited, even though tactically it’ll still kick anyone’s arses. The aim here could be simply to delay any actual invasion - make people think twice about invasion. Give D time to see what’s going on and refine his plans.

 

Of course, in CU, you also have UNTIL and other supertech organisations. These make things even more complicated, as they have tech countermeasures of their own. Not to mention VIPER. And Menton.

 

Also, never forget human intelligence. And sabotage. Allied troops may be too numerous to handle... so find out where landings are taking place, and nuke them. Give Rakshasa enough time and he could probably have assassins stalking just about every important member of hostile foreign governments. ‘Cease your aggression or all your leaders die.’ After all, in times of war, military command is a legitimate target. That was demonstrated IRL recently.

 

Now, it doesn’t have to go this way. There’s a lot of room in here for superheroes to have actions of their own. Such as destroying battlesats, for space-capable teams. Got an underwater guy? Well, Dr D’s got subs that are invisible to sonar and are causing havoc with naval power. He also has rebel Atlanteans causing a ruckus down there, to keep them occupied. PCs can go solve that problem, and suddenly Atlanteans are busy destroying D’s submarines. Mucho opportunity for PC involvement. Oh, as for the ‘stop or your leaders die’ plot... in addition to VIPER and Eurostar becoming involved, perhaps Menton offers to unmask all the assassins. But perhaps Rakshasa’s placed dummies for him to find. But this can quickly get silly as you devolve into triple-bluff.

 

It’s a very big storyline. Would include a great deal of complexity. But D has proven himself to be pretty durn good at anticipation and deception. Just look at the whole battle of Detroit. 50,000+ dead, as a diversion. That’s kinda... nuts. Inspired nuts, though.

[Lupus]

Apologies if anyone gets spammed by my post twice. It didn't appear to go through the first time. :/

 

I do appear to have managed to delete it, howerver. Yay me.

[Dauntless]

Here's the thing I wonder about DD. His time is running short. If he's going to croak fairly soon (I imagine even with his anagathics he has at most 20 years to live at the max), he's not only hampered by arrogance, but by impatience and haste as well. He needs to come up with a plan that conquers the world, and conquers it quickly.

 

I'm not sure the "UN Legitimization" scheme will work, as it will take time to both sway over many of these 3rd world countries, and elevate them to a power that can match the non-joining members. And I agree with Scott Destroyer's comments....I think some 3rd world nations will ally with DD, but his expanding sphere of influence will also cause some 3rd world nations to flock to the other world powers. DD isn't going to get all the dispossesed nations of the world.

 

But more importantly, what good is it to finally conquer the world if DD croaks over the next day? If anything, DD should be experiencing something like what Annihilus in the Marvel universe did....a being of vast power who's about to die. I also have a hunch that due to his megalomania, he has a feeling that without his leadership, human beings aren't worthy enough to live. So he could possibly change from world conqueror to world destroyer.

 

What this master plain is, I don't know, but since he's already wasted 10 years of his life on it, I have a hunch it's a grandiose plan designed to conquer the Earth as quickly as possible. It doesn't fit his personality to be a patient schemer biding his time. Again, I think this plan fits Menton or Teleios better than DD. Menton all the more since he could easily manipulate political leaders into doing his bidding very subtly or even peripherally (maybe Menton won't directly mentally manipulate world leaders...but their cabinet, advisors, staff, etc who in turn have the leader's ears). Menton could also cause entire populations to change allegiances especially if he convinces with just a grain of truth. This is Menton's style and tactic. DD is the kind who'll just blow you up if you don't agree. His genius seems to lie in technical creation, not in manipulation, patience and strategy. I have a feeling he'd scoff at Sun Tzu, Clausewitz or even Machiavelli. His arrogance and I would imagine his growing impatience are much more limiting to his overall strength than it would seem.

[Polaris]

Well put, Lupus.

 

Scott: There was a study done back in the early 1990s (I have been trying to find the precise citation) that drew a link between warfare and economics. In short, the research studies wars that had 'clearly defined' purposes (religion, politics, etc). What it found is that war is nearly always about economics. However, I can see that that is something we will just have to disagree about.

 

Who would win a war between the US and Dr. Destroyer? Good question... I would suspect that both Dr. D and the US would do their best to avoid finding out. The weapons Dr. Destroyer has ammassed would be far more capable of deterring the US from wanting a war. If the US goes after him, he has, among other things, the ability to create robot duplicates of himself (Send it to DC and take out the Congress, White House and Supreme Court... see if the heroes can get there in time... if they do, teleport to New York and blast there... if they show up there, go someplace else), or just use his orbital facitility "hidden by advanced stealth technology and equipped with weaponry even more powerful than the cannon with which he razed Detroit".

 

What would make you think the US would be in the least bit interested in ever fighting a war against this?

 

You mentioned that the US would just target Dr. Destroyer--how do you find him? If you are lucky enough to find him, is it him or is it a duplicate? If it is him, what stops him from simply teleporting away?

 

We haven't been able to get bin Laden, and we knew where he was. We haven't been able to get Saddam, and we have 148,000 troops (including our most advanced), trying to get him. I would suggest that Dr. Destroyer would be far more difficult to kill than these two individuals have been.

 

LOL... I am getting the feeling that this discussion has moved more into a thread fitting the non-roleplaying section.

 

We will have to agree to disagree whether rulers of the third world are willing to be junior partners in their rule. The US has made a policy for decades now of buying the loyalty of these "puppet states". If a leader disappoints us enough, a new leader is found. It has worked, and I suspect that it will continue to work well into the future (whether we are the ones doing it, or others are). The US has earned the nickname at the United Nations of "New Rome". Former US Ambassador to the UN Stevenson, when confronted with evidence that a number of nation-states were led by CIA employees, he replied that the US should run those countries.

 

I am not very familiar with Warlord... I chose Dr. Destroyer because of his vast resources, his reputation, the fact that Eurostar and Viper might be willing to work with the heroes, the heroes might be tempted to work with them, and that there would be an assumption by the heroes that Dr. Destroyer's New World Order would need to be stopped (without immediately thinking that people will be made better off under the Doctor's rule). That is the reason for choosing Dr. Destroyer.

 

Given that one of your objections to this plot was that leaders of the LDCs would not surrender any power to Dr. Destroyer, why do you believe they would under Warlord? I am not sure why one would be acceptable and the other objectionable.

 

Polaris

[Polaris]

Dauntless,

 

It could be that he has been working on this for the past 10 years, and the reason that some join immediately is that they have already agreed to work with him.

 

I am unsure why you believe it does not fit him to be a patient planner/schemer. He worked for the Americans long enough to learn what he needed to learn about American military technology, then left. He spent the next 25 years building a criminal network and building technology. Realizing he needed money, he established several dummy corporations and used the technology he developed to begin building up a cash reserve. It wasn't until the mid-1970s that Destroyer felt prepared to begin his effort to conquer the world.

 

It seems to me that he realized in 1938 that only he was fit to rule over all humankind... that he knew at that young age that he was going to rule the world. To work on developing his sciences, resources, etc until the mid 1970s, and then to strike, would indicate someone that is a bit of a patient planner. It also would seem that what he has been doing for the past 10 years would seem to be a patient planner (although I could be wrong on this second one).

 

Polaris

[Dauntless]

I think he's growing impatient though because of his age. He knows that even if he could extend his life past 100, the quality of his life will be worse and worse, even with his high technology. Time is his greatest enemy. So he may have realized he needed to gather his forces and build his strength in the beginning, but I wonder how patient he will be now?

 

Granted, he has been sitting idle for 10 years which indicates a measure of patience. But this has ticked off 10 years of his life. And at 85, he knows time is running out. Conquering the world isn't a game in that you win as long as you have more points at the end of the buzzer. In DD's case, when the buzzer goes off, he's dead...or at least so old that he can't effectively enjoy it. And I wonder how long until senility creeps in? For a man of his intellect (and arrogance) that must be a nightmare to him. So it's not enough to "win" by conquering the world...he has to have time to revel in it and enjoy it. That's why I think his master plan is a "one fell swoop" grandiose plan rather than a more subtle divide and conquer/join forces and assimilate approach.

 

Hopefully Steve won't kill me for directly quoting from CKC (but it is only a sentence): "He's not content to sit quietly and conspire behind the scenes to take over the world; he wants to bring humanity to its knees with one terrifying gesture that embodies his irresistible power and intelligence"

 

I think a plan of having dispossesed or disenfranchised nations joing him a sign of weakness...that DD couldn't somehow conquer the world on his own. However, he might do something as you suggested as a decoy. A feint to grab the world's attention and divert it's resources away from his true Master plan. This I could see DD doing...but this plan as a means and end unto itself does not fit his character. As CKC says, DD loves multi-layer plans, and also making people question their "petty" ideas of ethics and morality. I could see DD improving the lot of people's lives at least temporarily...so as to make Heroes and world governments question if it's "morally vindicated" to depose him even though he's improving the quality of life for others. But DD is also evil personified...third only perhaps to Takofanes and Dark Seraph in terms of his malice and cruel intentions. If he did improve the lot of people, it would be only to make people worship him as a God, since that's how he sees himself.

[assault]

Originally posted by Dauntless

However, he might do something as you suggested as a decoy. A feint to grab the world's attention and divert it's resources away from his true Master plan. This I could see DD doing...but this plan as a means and end unto itself does not fit his character. As CKC says, DD loves multi-layer plans, and also making people question their "petty" ideas of ethics and morality. I could see DD improving the lot of people's lives at least temporarily...so as to make Heroes and world governments question if it's "morally vindicated" to depose him even though he's improving the quality of life for others. But DD is also evil personified...third only perhaps to Takofanes and Dark Seraph in terms of his malice and cruel intentions. If he did improve the lot of people, it would be only to make people worship him as a God, since that's how he sees himself.

 

Well said.

 

The Master Plan will always be more subtle than what is on the surface. This, incidentally, ensures that petty objections as to the impossibility/unlikeliness of the Master Plan are irrelevent.

 

Third World leaders won't play along? Replace them with robots! Rogue supers will try to kill you? Replace _yourself_ with robots! Gee, robots can solve a lot of problems, can't they? Maybe Mechanon has a point...

 

Of course DD will treat his subjects well - that's part of a god's duties. The wrath and smiting is another part.

 

Alan

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello again,

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

There was a study done back in the early 1990s (I have been trying to find the precise citation) that drew a link between warfare and economics. In short, the research studies wars that had 'clearly defined' purposes (religion, politics, etc). What it found is that war is nearly always about economics. However, I can see that that is something we will just have to disagree about.

 

Well, some linkage between warfare and resource acquisition is hardly a surprise. Clausewitz himself stated that war is the continuation of politics by other means, and politicians have meddled in economies for about as long as there have been politicians. But I'm far from alone in suspecting that the less quantifiable psychological considerations play a much larger part that they are commonly given credit for, especially by rationally-inclined scientists of the sort who produce research studies. No better relatively-recent example of this than the Falklands War - expenditure on both sides far in excess of anything the islands could possibly bring to either for many, many a year. Even the farthest fringe of conspiracy-theorists have had a tough time trying to conjure up materialistic rationales for that one, weak mutterings about potential North Sea-like oil fields around the Falklands being about the best they can come up with.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

What would make you think the US would be in the least bit interested in ever fighting a war against this?

 

The eternal dilemma - given his philosophies and goals, conflict with Destroyer is inevitable. You can fight it now, or fight it later. If fighting it now were to Destroyer's advantage, you'd be fighting it now, because he'd be attacking you. Therefore, striking as soon as possible, as hard as possible, is at the least an option to be deeply considered. You almost always have a better chance in a fight if you get in a good first shot. You could outwait the communists - they thought all they had to do was survive, and "inevitable historical forces" would drop victory into their lap. Destroyer is unlikely to harbor such delusions. If you don't have technology on your side, and you can't match Destroyer's tactical brilliance, the war of attrition is your last real option, and such attrition is best started as soon as possible. For all his technology, can Destroyer really match the industrial output and human resources of the last world superpower and any allies it can muster (and, again, if he can, why is he bothering with the Third World and diplomacy)? If he upgrades his systems, he may kill 5, 10, 20 tanks for every Black Talon you take out. But can he afford to lose that one Black Talon as much as you can afford to lose the twenty tanks? The US Military is well versed in this sort of strategy. It's how they beat the Confederacy, it's how they and the Russians beat Hitler. It's bloody and costly, but I have little doubt they'd resort to it again if they thought it their only hope of victory. As for Destroyer's weapons of mass destruction - well, he's not the only one on the block with them, either. The US has used them before, on an enemy already on the ropes, an enemy with inferior technology who apparently presented far less of a real threat at that point than Destroyer with his shiny high-tech toys. Even if Destroyer can supposedly protect himself to some degree, how many of his new-found allies will stay at his side with stakes like those pushed onto the table?

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

You mentioned that the US would just target Dr. Destroyer--how do you find him? If you are lucky enough to find him, is it him or is it a duplicate? If it is him, what stops him from simply teleporting away?

 

We haven't been able to get bin Laden, and we knew where he was. We haven't been able to get Saddam, and we have 148,000 troops (including our most advanced), trying to get him. I would suggest that Dr. Destroyer would be far more difficult to kill than these two individuals have been.

 

Hussein and bin Laden are not confirmed to be dead. But neither, personally, is likely to be showing his face in public, or ordering up wars, heavy weapons, or major terrorist operations. You don't have to find a ruler to cut his links to his forces in the field, which are not so easily hidden. If Destroyer can be put in a similar position, it will probably suffice for the purposes of those opposed to him. It would, of course be better to have his threat removed once and for all, but if he does escape back into hiding - well, he wasn't doing much to anyone for the last ten years he was hidden, was he?

 

Robot duplicates can be a two-edged sword. It shouldn't be too hard for anyone to build a robot that looks like Doctor Destroyer. If you have conditioned subordinates to obey robots that look like you, how much havoc could be caused by an enemy capable of building such robots? If such robots incinerated anyone with the effrontery to question the will of Destroyer by asking for a password or other identity confirmation, would this harm or help their subterfuge?

 

Besides, Hussein and bin Laden seem much more practical and subtle than Destroyer. They are well aware that there are forces in the world more powerful than they. I'm not so sure the same can be said of Destroyer. And they don't have the personal hatred of the world's most powerful psionic.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

If a leader disappoints us enough, a new leader is found. It has worked, and I suspect that it will continue to work well into the future (whether we are the ones doing it, or others are).

 

Again, this I could probably see Destroyer doing. Finding new leaders, and setting them up in positions explicitly subordinate to his own, the way Gigaton and Rakshasa are explicitly subordinate to him. He might even intimidate existing leaders into accepting such positions. But this explicit subordination to the world's most dangerous criminal would seem to throw away any of the diplomatic benefits you are apparently looking for with this UN thing. And it could conceivably even increase his odds of being attacked - "Let's see, we'd have been happy to attack Destroyer before to pay back the harm he's already caused us, and keep him from doing worse in the future. Now, we can pay him back AND have an excuse to install friendly governments in Third World nations filled with natural resources we need - those with the taint of collaboration with Destroyer must be removed, after all. And if we don't attack him now, we give him time to exploit the resources of all these nations, which will better his position against us even further."

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

I am not very familiar with Warlord... I chose Dr. Destroyer because of his vast resources, his reputation, the fact that Eurostar and Viper might be willing to work with the heroes, the heroes might be tempted to work with them, and that there would be an assumption by the heroes that Dr. Destroyer's New World Order would need to be stopped (without immediately thinking that people will be made better off under the Doctor's rule). That is the reason for choosing Dr. Destroyer.

 

Well, don't worry, you're not alone here, because as far as I know, Warlord made his debut in the current Champions Universe, and was not in previous editions (though my own knowledge of 4th is admittedly scanty). He seems to take the general campaign role of the old Professor Muerte - a character similar to Destroyer, but powered down enough that a party still under starting Active Point or Damage Class limitations has a chance to take him. And he's been given a background and personality seemingly calculated to endear him to old wargamers like myself. You do certainly have a point about Destroyer having a lot of enemies - Gravitar has supposedly talked some smurf about him, too, Firewing might relish a few rounds with the "top of the Omega list", and money talks with a mercenary like the Warlord. Powerful potential allies all!

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Given that one of your objections to this plot was that leaders of the LDCs would not surrender any power to Dr. Destroyer, why do you believe they would under Warlord? I am not sure why one would be acceptable and the other objectionable.

 

From my reading of him, Warlord wants to be a world-conqueror, and cares much less about being a world-ruler. He wants to go down in history next to Alexander, Genghis Khan, and Napoleon. I could see him making actual deals with people, settling for total command of a coalition of Third World militaries (stiffened by his own elite troopers), and leaving real power over domestic and economic affairs (beyond what is necessary to support his armies) in the hands of current rulers, including the real power base of a domestic secret police. And I could see many of these rulers accepting such deals, as their own power would grow when the Warlord turned conquered areas over to them for administration while he moved on to the next conquest. Destroyer seems the sort to take all power for himself, the sort to be reluctant to leave his "partners" even the appearance of any actual decision-making authority.

 

On the downside, Warlord is far less powerful than Destroyer, and a far newer player in the world-threatening super-villain game. This, though, is all the more reason for him to cut real deals with current leaders.

 

I can also tell you what my response would be were I a player in your campaign who was faced with the offer of working with VIPER, EUROSTAR, or other villains against Destroyer: I'd take the offer in a heartbeat. An altruistic character would see it as a chance to give villains an opportunity at redemption, while if I were playing a more cynical type, I'd hold the view that, if people have to die fighting Destroyer, at many of them as possible should be lowlife scum like VIPER goons or Fiacho and his cronies. I would, of course, always have an eye open for potential treachery from such "allies". I suspect, from my responses, that you'd have guessed I'd take this stance, though.

 

Polaris, I do hope this discussion is helping you with your ideas. I'm making a lot of assumptions about conditions that haven't really been explicitly stated (you're using current-timeline CU; Destroyer is as pompous and as arrogant as in CKC, or even more so; US and world political leadership in your campaign at least roughly corresponding to those in the real world, campaign moral tone tending towards "shades of gray", and so forth). At the least, I hope I'm helping you get your thoughts tuned up to drop this concept into a campaign with a maximum of plausibility and a good fit into your play style. At any rate, it's been a fun discussion from this end, so far! And good luck with the campaign, no matter which decisions you wind up making!

[Polaris]

Thank you Scott, and everyone else, for your very insightful and interesting comments.

 

I hope this discussion thread has not veered too far off of what would belong in the Champions section (although much of it is 'non-gaming', it would seem to have at least some relevance to a gaming discussion).

 

I do not know much about Warlord, so I could not really comment on whether he would be a better choice. I think that if he is more interested in conquering (ala Alexander or Napoleon), then I don't know that he would be as interested in this form of power grab. This scheme is really geared toward a notion that if anyone could organize the LDCs, then they could grab enormous power (according to the Dependency Theory of Power, they could actually seize enough power to take over the world).

 

The point of the scheme, of course, is to test the PCs. I was very interested that some posters expressed the view that it would not be the hero thing to do to stop Destroyer if the lot of the people he ruled was better off. Another poster expressed the idea that Viper and Eurostar are NOT lesser evils than Dr. Destroyer, while another said Destroyer was evil itself (second, possibly, to only two other individuals, neither of which is Viper or Eurostar).

 

Stories that lead to this type of thinking and consideration are the most fun for me as a GM. What is the 'right' thing to do is not always perfectly clear (I am not fond of the games that limit thinking to "which power should I use to blast my opponent").

 

I did run this game.. the results were interesting:

 

1. The team leader, an arrogant anti-hero was team leader largely because of his experience as a superhero and with the team, agreed to meet with Eurostar, but then backed out of the meeting and refused to so much as speak to them about joining forces.

 

2. One character, an innocent female hero with aspirations of always 'fighting for all that is good', took a leave from the team to JOIN EUROSTAR in the fight against Dr. Destroyer (she really did not like following the team leader, and his refusal to at least see what Eurostar had to say really peeved her off).

 

3. One character, an interdimensional traveller who did not have any strong allegiance to any particular nation, but believed in fighting for people that were unable to fight for themselves, ended up JOINING DESTROYER! Without going into complete detail about how this all came about (it would be quite a long story), basically she is played by a very good role player that does not let her personal knowlege of the world affect her character. She went out to learn about the lives of the people in these new world order countries, and found them to be improving (albeit slowly), and decided that the more just and good cause was to help these people, regardless of her teammates talk about how 'evil' Destroyer is. Obviously, she left the team.

 

4. One character, an Irishman imbued by the spirits of the old druids of Ireland to protect the Emerald Isle from the one known as 'Destroyer', obviously sought to fight against the threat from Destroyer. He began to work with number 5 below in that fight, but eventually stopped showing up to games (he hated that ANYONE could agree to work with either Eurostar/Viper OR Destroyer, and continued to lobby me as GM to "make them stop").

 

5. Finally, our 'Superman' character. At first, he tried to compel people to stand up to Destroyer, then realizing that that would not work, developed a plan to seemingly accept Destroyer's plan, and then turn on him in the end.

 

If anyone else has any similar campaign ideas (does not have to be overly grandiose, just something that challenges the players to have their characters make basic choices about what they believe, and what they are willing to do to fight for what they believe), I would love to hear about them...:)

 

Thanks again everyone! :)

 

Polaris

[Kristopher]

I was going to start commenting, and then realized that it wouldn't be so much on your premise as it would be on the underlying assumptions in comics that allow such a premise to be plausible in many comics universes.

 

Let's just say that I don't like supers laughing at tanks and tac-nukes. The idea that DD and 20,000 troops could defend a vast swath of the third world from NATO is, in my mind, laughable. The idea that one man and his terrorist organization could have any kind of technological edge over the western powers is, in my opinion, laughable.