So Dr. Destroyer walks into the UN...

[Polaris]

Upon getting a "sponsor" to allow him to speak, the Destroyer approached the podium and looked out at the stunned diplomats of the world. Representatives of the various nations of earth listened as the Destroyer announced a "new world order". Gone were the days of American hegemony and domination. No longer would the poorest nations be forced to sell their labor and their souls to serve the masters of the "economic north". To everyone's surprise (given the leader of the new world order), only those nations that wished to join would be included within this new world order.

 

Several nations, seeking an end to their economic plight, and hoping for some protection from the intimidation of the world's only remaining superpower, joined immediately. Over the following several days, others followed suit.

 

The Destroyer had succesfully seized an opportunity. The new found willingness of the US government to flex its awesome military power had sent many nations scurrying for protection. Destroyer would allow many of the leaders to live a life of extreme wealth, luxuries, power and security... in exchange, they had to serve HIM (see the deal Rakshasa realized at the bottom of page 15 in CKC).

 

With rule over a growing number of nations, the Destroyer began to shift the economic policies of many of the Lesser Developed nations toward the policies recommended by the Oraganization of African Unity (they had a study not long ago that demonstrated that they could expedite their economic development dramatically if they focussed upon their strengths and increased traded more within their own nations and with one another, rather than focussing on the economic interests of the economic north).

 

The nations that joined the new world order were protected by Destroyer and his nearly 20,000 special troops. In addition, Destroyer was able to place weapon platforms near the borders of some of the nations, and threatened the use of weapons technologically far superior to the nuclear weapons posessed by his adversaries.

 

While the nations joining Destroyer were far from an immediate threat to the power of the north, it was becomming clear that given enough time, it could grow from "a thorn in the flesh, to become a dagger in the heart". The established powers began to worry.

 

With each nation falling sway to Destroyer's promises, and the growing improvements in the lives of many of the people in the new world order (by improvements, I certainly do not mean they were living at America's standards, but far better than they had under their old masters), the established powers became more and more nervous. Someone had to do something!

 

The Champions, back at their base, were meeting with a representative of the US government when they were contacted by... EUROSTAR! Eurostar contacted the Champions seeking an alliance to stop the Destroyer. They had already recruited another of Destroyer's nemesis: VIPER.

 

Do the heroes join an alliance with Eurostar and Viper to stop their mutual enemy ("enemy of my enemy is my friend"), or do they gamble that they will find a solution more palatable to their taste?

 

Polaris

[Agent Escafarc]

Have you been reading Waid & Kitson's EMPIRE from DC

I want to be the Sheet Shark;)

[assault]

Re: So Dr. Destroyer walks into the UN...

 

Originally posted by Polaris

Do the heroes join an alliance with Eurostar and Viper to stop their mutual enemy ("enemy of my enemy is my friend"), or do they gamble that they will find a solution more palatable to their taste?

 

Interesting.

 

For most of my characters: find another solution. Eurostar and VIPER are _not_ lesser evils.

 

Alan

[OddHat]

Well done.

[Polaris]

No I haven't... I just thought it would be an interesting story idea, and was wanting some thoughts from the Hero community on what they thought...

 

Really, the inspiration came from my EC 551 (Economic Development in the Third World) class combined with WWII (where the Americans worked with the Bolsheviks to confront the Nazi threat), our group's propensity to hate all villains regardless of the cirumstance (would THIS be enough?), finally getting the new version of Dr. Destroyer, and probably some other places...

 

Polaris

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Polaris

No I haven't... I just thought it would be an interesting story idea, and was wanting some thoughts from the Hero community on what they thought...

 

Really, the inspiration came from my EC 551 (Economic Development in the Third World) class combined with WWII (where the Americans worked with the Bolsheviks to confront the Nazi threat), our group's propensity to hate all villains regardless of the cirumstance (would THIS be enough?), finally getting the new version of Dr. Destroyer, and probably some other places...

 

Polaris

 

In a four color with a touch of grey campaign, it's a good storyline.

 

In a more realistic world, most dictators are evil to the point where a four color Dr.Destroyer would be an improvement.

[assault]

Originally posted by Polaris

Really, the inspiration came from my EC 551 (Economic Development in the Third World) class combined with WWII (where the Americans worked with the Bolsheviks to confront the Nazi threat), our group's propensity to hate all villains regardless of the cirumstance (would THIS be enough?), finally getting the new version of Dr. Destroyer, and probably some other places...

 

Your influences were fairly visible.

 

I didn't bother explaining all the logic behind my response. I could certainly see my characters being in the minority.

 

OK, briefly:

(a) Destroyer's political regime wasn't described as being significantly worse than the alternatives.

 

( The economic growth described seems to have been unachievable by the alternative systems.

 

© While cooperating with "villains" is par for the course for my characters, this is highly selective and does not generally extend to groups like Eurostar and VIPER.

 

Of course, if this occurred in a consistent, ongoing universe, the result would almost certainly be war - "cold" to begin with, and "hot" later on. The latter situation, especially, would encourage the emergence of Golden and Silver Age hyper-patriotisms.

 

This would undoubtedly push my characters off into supervillain-land, because they wouldn't go along with it. Any other heroes with "a plague on both your houses" attitudes would fact similar choices: conform or go rogue.

 

Fun.

 

Alan

[Patriot]

Umm..Thats Wonderful!

Yes sir I like it!

[Dauntless]

The trouble here is that if Dr. Destroyer legitimizes himself by becoming a leader of a country or group of countries, he risks the exact same fate of Hussein. I for one always assumed Dr. Destroyer couldn't be taken down because A) his bases were hidden and DD only revealed himself when he wanted to, and Huge organizations like the US government had other more serious matters to worry about (like other rogue nations supposedly threatening its security).

 

If DD does this, he takes away both A) and . Now the U.S. government (and the non-agreeing countries) can focus all their effort on removing this growing thorn in the side. Would DD risk using WMD against those who would deny him? I don't think so...DD isn't a world destroyer, he's a world conqueror. It doesn't do good to blow up the place you want to control. Now would he blackmail with the use of WMD's? Yes, if he thinks it will make his foes capitulate to his demands. But then you start playing WMD brinkmanship...and once you go over the edge, it's too late. DD may be incredibly intelligent, but his arrogance does not make him wise...something that Brinkmanship players need. And really, no matter how powerful DD is, if they ever figure out where he is, a 10kiloton tac nuke is really going to ruin his day. Heroes may balk at using such force with force, but I don't think it would hamper a country who was in turn threatened by WMD's.

 

It's an interesting concept, but I don't think it fits DD's style. Ditto with Mechanon. Now, Foxbat might be crazy enough to do something like this, but he's also not powerful enough to pull it off. I think a more slinky player like Menton would be more apt to do something like this.

[Lord Liaden]

Dr. Destroyer not use WMDs? What was the Battle of Detroit about, but an attempt to stop Destroyer from bombarding the United States with meteors to throw it back to the Stone Age? Dr. D is one of the villains who is most likely to use such weapons, especially when his back is against the wall. Case in point, the death ray that levelled Detroit.

 

Assuming that the people of the countries who accepted Destroyer's rule did so freely, and their lot really did improve, I find it hard to believe that the established powers could justify intervention to the world community, especially if the Doctor did not offer any overt threat. Besides, the difference in approach that the United States has taken toward repressive regimes who have WMDs (China, Korea for ex) would suggest that they would tread carefully around someone with the most advanced technology in the world.

 

OTOH, I'm not sure that Destroyer would have the patience and tolerance to actually implement these reforms over the squabbling of special interest groups, ethnic enclaves, religious factions and the other divisive influences that keep contributing to derailing policy changes in the Third World. Besides, it's a truism that revolutions don't occur when people are wretched, but when their circumstances start to improve and they begin to hope and question. I could see Destroyer becoming increasingly Draconian in his policies toward his subjects as his frustration with their "pettiness" mounts, and that could be all the excuse and incentive the rest of the world would need to intervene.

[Polaris]

Dauntless: I believe that Destroyer's ability to deter an attack by the United States would be sufficient to ensure he would not suffer the same fate as Saddam Hussein. I would suggest that the US (and other nations) is ultimately more concerned with self-preservation, than with saving a few nations from oppression from Destroyer.

 

The difficulty is when Destroyer's new world order continues to grow. The US is dependent upon LDCs for much of our economic prosperity. Just by way of example, the US gets 70% of our industrial diamonds from Congo. Congo does not possess the ability to demand a higher price from the US and others because of fear of military retribution (we have invaded before when they had such 'communist' ideas). What would happen if we no longer had the ability to make such threats?

 

I do not believe Destroyer would need to use such WMD... the mere threat is a weapon itself (and one that has proven quite effective in deterring war in the past).

 

LL: I am unsure of how patient Destroyer would be either. Revolution against Destroyer's rule would be difficult at best, but not impossible. One possible solution for the Heroes would be to try to sabotage the development efforts and try to incite revolt?

 

The idea behind the story is that the LDCs, if organized under a strong leadership and armed with the ability to defend themselves, could gain considerable power in the world (Dependency Theory of Power). Destroyer could offer them such strong leadership and defense, at a cost that may seem to many to be lower than continuing in their present hopeless state of virtual slavery to the established powers of the economic north. While his plan may not work, it certainly has a real potential of working, which gives the heroes a bit of desperation to do something big to stop him.

 

Is that desperation big enough to work with an old nemesis like Eurostar??

 

Polaris

[Lord Liaden]

Polaris, did you ever read the story John Byrne wrote for the Fantastic Four in which the FF accompanied Dr. Doom on his quest to regain the throne of Latveria? Even they questioned whether the Latverian people hadn't been better off when Doom was in charge: they were prosperous, educated, their country was peaceful and stable. When those qualities were lost under the king (name escapes me) who replaced von Doom, the people wanted Doom back.

 

It sounds like you want Destroyer's plan to improve the well-being of the people he rules to succeed, but have world governments and/or PC heroes attack him anyway. You're even suggesting that the "heroes" sabotage beneficial reforms to incite revolt. How would you expect the PCs to justify that? How would you justify it to them? Dr. Destroyer may be a megalomaniac, but if he's actually improving people's lives, and they willingly allow him to do this, a lot of superheroes will have a great deal of trouble accepting the notion of interfering, at least without pressing evidence that the Dr.'s long-term goals are threatening.

 

Mind you, that very issue of benefit vs. threat, proof vs. accusation, past actions vs. present ones, could make for some interesting debates and disputes between PCs, or between the heroes and the government if the latter takes a more "self-interested" approach to dealing with Destroyer. Good fodder for role-playing.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Upon getting a "sponsor" to allow him to speak, the Destroyer approached the podium and looked out at the stunned diplomats of the world. Representatives of the various nations of earth listened as the Destroyer announced a "new world order".

 

The man is wanted by UNTIL. He has destroyed a city, sunk warships of at least one UN member nation (and permanent Security Council member), and killed more superheroes than anyone else alive. He has not even the pretense of being a "spokesman for an oppressed people", or indeed any other expressed political agenda besides his own aggrandizement. He has ties to Hitler and the Third Reich. Menton, who probably has more than one of these people under his control, hates him. What makes you think anybody's "sponsorship" would make the slightest bit of difference in how Destroyer was handled, even assuming he could find someone willing to take the massive diplomatic and political risks of "sponsoring" him. Saddam Hussein, who destroyed no cities, was taken down despite being a recognized national leader with First World nations and long-time US allies running interference for him in the UN. And that's just governments. Superhuman vigilantes who have had friends murdered by Destroyer and his cronies will, I suspect, have much less concern for the diplomatic niceties than any foreign ministry.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Several nations, seeking an end to their economic plight, and hoping for some protection from the intimidation of the world's only remaining superpower, joined immediately. Over the following several days, others followed suit.

 

Just which nations would these be? Nations sunk in chronic "economic plight" tend to be doctrinaire communist or socialist regimes, or lands torn with tribal or ethnic violence, or comprehensively corrupt dictatorships and oligarchies. Most rulers of such nations care little about "economic plight", except to the extent that it is a direct threat to their continued rule. Indeed, rulers in the lands wracked with insurrection tend to actively encourage "economic plight" in areas deemed insufficiently loyal to them. Such rulers, whatever other faults they may have, are generally cunning and ruthless veterans of vicious political infighting, often in places where the also-rans can count themselves lucky just to get something akin to the quick death Leon Trotsky got. And these are the guys who are going to roll over at the promise of some technological aid, or a few million more in the old Cayman Islands accounts, from a bombastic German octogenarian in a tin suit?

 

As to "intimidation", which regimes do you think believe they will get less intimidation from the US by sucking up to a guy like Destroyer?

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

The new found willingness of the US government to flex its awesome military power had sent many nations scurrying for protection. Destroyer would allow many of the leaders to live a life of extreme wealth, luxuries, power and security... in exchange, they had to serve HIM (see the deal Rakshasa realized at the bottom of page 15 in CKC).

 

So these hardened maximum-leaders-for-life are going to "protect" their power by, de facto, turning it over to Destroyer? All in return for a luxurious lifestyle, which most of them (unlike Rakshasa) have already? And the other half of Rakshasa's deal is, "or I'll kill you." Is Destroyer going to threaten all these Third World leaders with outright murder? What will THAT do to his diplomatic status?

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

With rule over a growing number of nations, the Destroyer began to shift the economic policies of many of the Lesser Developed nations toward the policies recommended by the Oraganization of African Unity

 

These nations apparently found such policies unacceptable even when ruled by one of their own. Why do you think they will suddenly become acceptable under rule from an outsider like Destroyer? Or will he force these policies on "his" people?

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

Dauntless: I believe that Destroyer's ability to deter an attack by the United States would be sufficient to ensure he would not suffer the same fate as Saddam Hussein. I would suggest that the US (and other nations) is ultimately more concerned with self-preservation, than with saving a few nations from oppression from Destroyer.

 

He couldn't deter an attack on Destruga, which was packed to the brim with his vaunted technology. How is he going to defend an actual nation (or several, possibly non-contiguous), with borders the size of a real nation's? And Destroyer's army of 20,000 troops is chump change in the real war business. It's one division. Sufficient, under modern calculations, to defend perhaps ten kilometers of front line against a determined attack by a competent foe, if its flanks were secure - and that only for long enough to let reserves mount a counterattack. Destroyer could perhaps use the peasant conscript armies of the former rulers of his lands for static defensive work, and keep his own troops as a reserve. But Third World conscript armies barely rate as speed bumps before a large, modern, mobile combined-arms force.

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

The difficulty is when Destroyer's new world order continues to grow. The US is dependent upon LDCs for much of our economic prosperity. Just by way of example, the US gets 70% of our industrial diamonds from Congo. Congo does not possess the ability to demand a higher price from the US and others because of fear of military retribution (we have invaded before when they had such 'communist' ideas). What would happen if we no longer had the ability to make such threats?

 

There are small nations and cartels of nations with near-monopolies on certain exotic minerals with industrial uses. But the forces setting the prices of those items are economic forces, not military forces. The Congo can demand any price for diamonds they want, and if their customers don't like it, then those who are supplying the other 30% of the diamonds will see nice increases in their orders, and their mines, shafts, and synthetic diamond production processes that would have been unprofitable at lower volume will now make them the beneficiaries of Congo's avarice. As for politics, could there be any idea LESS communist than exploiting your monopoly on a natural resource to raise prices obscenely? When communist regimes are attacked, from within or without, it is because the attackers loathe the ideas and methods, and frequently the personalities, of communism, not for specific price breaks on specific items. The idea of launching a war over a few percentage points difference in the price of diamonds is so absurd as to be laughable (which, admittedly, would probably get it approved as a major story arc in a Denny O'Neill book).

 

Originally Posted by Polaris:

The idea behind the story is that the LDCs, if organized under a strong leadership and armed with the ability to defend themselves, could gain considerable power in the world (Dependency Theory of Power). Destroyer could offer them such strong leadership and defense, at a cost that may seem to many to be lower than continuing in their present hopeless state of virtual slavery to the established powers of the economic north.

 

"Virtual slavery"? Yeah, Mobutu, Kanunda, and Mugabe (to name just three) were living in conditions comparable to those of Mississippi field hands circa 1859 - NOT. And the fact that many of these peoples won't put up with "strong leadership" from outsiders, even ones of the same skin color, is the cause of much of the trouble in many of these nations today. How does Destroyer plan to deal with that? The same way his old buddy Hitler did in the Balkans, by picking a local ally and giving him weapons and a free hand to massacre his opponents wholesale? If intervening in such a Rwanda-like situation would have given the US an opportunity to grab an enemy who had done them as much harm as Destroyer has, I could about guarantee they'd have intervened.

 

The entire scenario just seems thoroughly un-Destroyer-like. I could see him conquering Third World countries. I could see Third World countries offering to work with him, exchanging his technology for diplomatic cover and bases. But I can't see Destroyer haggling with anybody, even in bad faith - to bargain with someone acknowledges near-equality, which Destroyer would almost never do, and certainly not with people he would view as tinhorn dictators of backwards low-rent nations. I can't see him caring much about diplomacy or whether others like him. And I can't see the rulers taking "deals" that would cost them their actual power over the nations they rule, no matter what they were promised, 60 PRE or not, unless they were actually threatened with immediate death - and maybe not even then.

 

Originally Posted by Lord Liaden:

did you ever read the story John Byrne wrote for the Fantastic Four in which the FF accompanied Dr. Doom on his quest to regain the throne of Latveria?

 

I seem to remember this; this would have been to retake Latveria after Doom's contingency heir, Kristoff, took over after Doom's apparent death at the hands of Terrax and the Silver Surfer. Kristoff's mind was "imprinted" with Doom's personality and intellect, making him a formidable opponent.

 

I also seem to remember, vaguely, a graphic novel in which Doom succeeds in taking over the world, using a device that amplified the Purple Man's mind control powers. If I remember rightly, his rule was overthrown by a few people immune to the control, including Ultron (a robot), and possibly Wonder Man (ionic energy body), and at least one other - maybe Namor? This graphic novel might also bear some relevance to the discussion; does anyone else remember any more of the details?

[assault]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Good fodder for role-playing.

 

It certainly is. It inspired me to finish writing up my 350 point version of Ultra Man, the hero I would want to play in this kind of game. (A cross between Ultra Boy and Superman, of course.) This is when I should be doing a bunch of other things, including writing up villains for a game I am planning.

 

 

I don't know that my game would have room for such hugely world-changing events, at least at first. Then again, on a smaller scale... Something like this would be a good way of getting players thinking, arguing, and kicking some serious bottom.

 

Getting back to the actual scenario in question: of course, if one supervillain takeover succeeds, it could well lead to others. In addition, if warfare starts to become superpowered, superheroes might start becoming seen as more legitimate rules of more or less democratic states as well. Just think, what if Invictus and Borealis were elected to lead the US and Canada respectively through this kind of desperate crisis? Presumably they would sort out their differences in order to unite against Dr D.

 

Memo to Steve and Darren: please bring back Invictus and Borealis! Especially since Golden Avenger Kaufman is out of the way.

 

On the other hand, is Kaufman dead? If he's just retired, he might go into politics... That would be evil, wouldn't it?

 

Anyway, a world where rival supers start ruling norms on a large scale would certainly be... interesting...

 

It could get very Iron Age very quickly. And then it could get very Stone Age.

 

Oh yeah. It works for me.

 

Alan

[chariot]

wow...

 

This was interesting.

 

What a wonderful rebuttal from Scott.

 

Certainly amazing that a thread so obviously polarized and politically charged could stay above the level of name calling (got to admit, I was tempted to fling around a few choice epithets while reading).

 

The original hypothesis is extremely 4 color, even if it does blend in some real world theory. Scott's rebuttal is far more Iron age, and relies more on real world practicalities than theory. In essence, the two best comments in the thread (the topic starter and the wonderful rebuttal) are at complete odds with each other -- they exist in different worlds. One is far too simplistic to be real, but would make for a wonderfully entertaining story (the true goal of our shared obsession, no?); the other, wonderfully written and reflective of a more real-world take on the hypothesis. One left, one right...

[starblaze]

Originally posted by Scott Destroyer

Hello,

 

 

 

The man is wanted by UNTIL. He has destroyed a city, sunk warships of at least one UN member nation (and permanent Security Council member), and killed more superheroes than anyone else alive. He has not even the pretense of being a "spokesman for an oppressed people", or indeed any other expressed political agenda besides his own aggrandizement. He has ties to Hitler and the Third Reich. Menton, who probably has more than one of these people under his control, hates him. What makes you think anybody's "sponsorship" would make the slightest bit of difference in how Destroyer was handled, even assuming he could find someone willing to take the massive diplomatic and political risks of "sponsoring" him. Saddam Hussein, who destroyed no cities, was taken down despite being a recognized national leader with First World nations and long-time US allies running interference for him in the UN. And that's just governments. Superhuman vigilantes who have had friends murdered by Destroyer and his cronies will, I suspect, have much less concern for the diplomatic niceties than any foreign ministry.

 

 

 

Just which nations would these be? Nations sunk in chronic "economic plight" tend to be doctrinaire communist or socialist regimes, or lands torn with tribal or ethnic violence, or comprehensively corrupt dictatorships and oligarchies. Most rulers of such nations care little about "economic plight", except to the extent that it is a direct threat to their continued rule. Indeed, rulers in the lands wracked with insurrection tend to actively encourage "economic plight" in areas deemed insufficiently loyal to them. Such rulers, whatever other faults they may have, are generally cunning and ruthless veterans of vicious political infighting, often in places where the also-rans can count themselves lucky just to get something akin to the quick death Leon Trotsky got. And these are the guys who are going to roll over at the promise of some technological aid, or a few million more in the old Cayman Islands accounts, from a bombastic German octogenarian in a tin suit?

 

As to "intimidation", which regimes do you think believe they will get less intimidation from the US by sucking up to a guy like Destroyer?

 

 

 

So these hardened maximum-leaders-for-life are going to "protect" their power by, de facto, turning it over to Destroyer? All in return for a luxurious lifestyle, which most of them (unlike Rakshasa) have already? And the other half of Rakshasa's deal is, "or I'll kill you." Is Destroyer going to threaten all these Third World leaders with outright murder? What will THAT do to his diplomatic status?

 

 

 

These nations apparently found such policies unacceptable even when ruled by one of their own. Why do you think they will suddenly become acceptable under rule from an outsider like Destroyer? Or will he force these policies on "his" people?

 

 

 

He couldn't deter an attack on Destruga, which was packed to the brim with his vaunted technology. How is he going to defend an actual nation (or several, possibly non-contiguous), with borders the size of a real nation's? And Destroyer's army of 20,000 troops is chump change in the real war business. It's one division. Sufficient, under modern calculations, to defend perhaps ten kilometers of front line against a determined attack by a competent foe, if its flanks were secure - and that only for long enough to let reserves mount a counterattack. Destroyer could perhaps use the peasant conscript armies of the former rulers of his lands for static defensive work, and keep his own troops as a reserve. But Third World conscript armies barely rate as speed bumps before a large, modern, mobile combined-arms force.

 

 

 

There are small nations and cartels of nations with near-monopolies on certain exotic minerals with industrial uses. But the forces setting the prices of those items are economic forces, not military forces. The Congo can demand any price for diamonds they want, and if their customers don't like it, then those who are supplying the other 30% of the diamonds will see nice increases in their orders, and their mines, shafts, and synthetic diamond production processes that would have been unprofitable at lower volume will now make them the beneficiaries of Congo's avarice. As for politics, could there be any idea LESS communist than exploiting your monopoly on a natural resource to raise prices obscenely? When communist regimes are attacked, from within or without, it is because the attackers loathe the ideas and methods, and frequently the personalities, of communism, not for specific price breaks on specific items. The idea of launching a war over a few percentage points difference in the price of diamonds is so absurd as to be laughable (which, admittedly, would probably get it approved as a major story arc in a Denny O'Neill book).

 

 

 

"Virtual slavery"? Yeah, Mobutu, Kanunda, and Mugabe (to name just three) were living in conditions comparable to those of Mississippi field hands circa 1859 - NOT. And the fact that many of these peoples won't put up with "strong leadership" from outsiders, even ones of the same skin color, is the cause of much of the trouble in many of these nations today. How does Destroyer plan to deal with that? The same way his old buddy Hitler did in the Balkans, by picking a local ally and giving him weapons and a free hand to massacre his opponents wholesale? If intervening in such a Rwanda-like situation would have given the US an opportunity to grab an enemy who had done them as much harm as Destroyer has, I could about guarantee they'd have intervened.

 

The entire scenario just seems thoroughly un-Destroyer-like. I could see him conquering Third World countries. I could see Third World countries offering to work with him, exchanging his technology for diplomatic cover and bases. But I can't see Destroyer haggling with anybody, even in bad faith - to bargain with someone acknowledges near-equality, which Destroyer would almost never do, and certainly not with people he would view as tinhorn dictators of backwards low-rent nations. I can't see him caring much about diplomacy or whether others like him. And I can't see the rulers taking "deals" that would cost them their actual power over the nations they rule, no matter what they were promised, 60 PRE or not, unless they were actually threatened with immediate death - and maybe not even then.

 

 

 

I seem to remember this; this would have been to retake Latveria after Doom's contingency heir, Kristoff, took over after Doom's apparent death at the hands of Terrax and the Silver Surfer. Kristoff's mind was "imprinted" with Doom's personality and intellect, making him a formidable opponent.

 

I also seem to remember, vaguely, a graphic novel in which Doom succeeds in taking over the world, using a device that amplified the Purple Man's mind control powers. If I remember rightly, his rule was overthrown by a few people immune to the control, including Ultron (a robot), and possibly Wonder Man (ionic energy body), and at least one other - maybe Namor? This graphic novel might also bear some relevance to the discussion; does anyone else remember any more of the details?

 

i think the Dr. Doom tale that was mentioned was the one where a Prince Zarkov? takes over Lavteria with the FF's help. The FF then find out that things were much worse when Doom was deposed and crime and suffering ran rampant. The FF help Doom take back his land and he kills Zarkov.

[death tribble]

It also depends on whether you use the Champions History as written or adapt it for your campaign world.

 

It has a nice theme but would depend on whether you had Destroyer as the one responsible for the battle of Detroit.

 

Anything is possible if you make the logic convincing enough and if it fits what has gone before.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by death tribble

It also depends on whether you use the Champions History as written or adapt it for your campaign world.

 

It has a nice theme but would depend on whether you had Destroyer as the one responsible for the battle of Detroit.

 

Anything is possible if you make the logic convincing enough and if it fits what has gone before.

A variation on the idea - albeit an extreme one - might be to replace Dr. Destroyer with Warlord and a U.N. announced manifesto with broad but not public sponsorship of semi-controlled sympathetic revolutionary movements culminating in an alliance of Third World Nations enjoying an economic and technological renaissance under Warlord's thumb. At the very worst, it gets him customers, troop training, and notoriety in the meantime.

 

Hostile factions after the plan comes together include but needn't be limited to the Eurostar/VIPER/First World governments looking to put things back the way they were; revolutionaries and heroes outside the Establishment interested in keeping the assertive, united, and progressive new Third World and removing the new Alexander from the top of it; and various other villains just looking to move into his spot out of sheer ambition and/or other agendas. Dr. D himself would fit obviously in the third category, though nothing stops him from trying to fake membership in one of the first two.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Scott Destroyer

I also seem to remember, vaguely, a graphic novel in which Doom succeeds in taking over the world, using a device that amplified the Purple Man's mind control powers. If I remember rightly, his rule was overthrown by a few people immune to the control, including Ultron (a robot), and possibly Wonder Man (ionic energy body), and at least one other - maybe Namor? This graphic novel might also bear some relevance to the discussion; does anyone else remember any more of the details?

Namor was a puppet, but was able to break free at the end. He destroyed the machine and killed the Purple Man in the process.

I don't remember Ultron being involved, I'll have to look and see. I know I've got the book in my shelf.

[Jinx999]

I was going to say something, but Scott beat me to it and did it better than I could.

The whole idea presupposed that the rulers of the failed states cared about the well being of their people rather than their own wealth and power or failed ideaology.

As an aside - I think Dr. D in CKC is grossly overpowered. His powers are too brute force. I think a master villian should be more. "I wish we could get this guy in our sights, but he always slips through our fingers." rather than "I'm glad we've never met the guy, he could kill us easily."

[tiger]

Originally posted by Jinx999

As an aside - I think Dr. D in CKC is grossly overpowered. His powers are too brute force. I think a master villian should be more. "I wish we could get this guy in our sights, but he always slips through our fingers." rather than "I'm glad we've never met the guy, he could kill us easily."

 

He's very comic book. Doc. Doom can take on the FF or Avengers single handedly or stay behind the scenes and cause problems. This is what DR. D can do as well, while he can stand toe-to-toe with the best of them he tends to let others do his work for him.

 

While would a man who can make awesome suits for others not make one for himself

 

Besides you can always tone him down to match your campaign

[Polaris]

Sorry, I do not know how to break the quote up, so I will put my responses in brackets. Many of your points are very good, but there are a few things that I think you may be overlooking.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Scott Destroyer

Hello,

 

[Hi...]

 

The man is wanted by UNTIL. He has destroyed a city, sunk warships of at least one UN member nation (and permanent Security Council member), and killed more superheroes than anyone else alive. He has not even the pretense of being a "spokesman for an oppressed people", or indeed any other expressed political agenda besides his own aggrandizement. He has ties to Hitler and the Third Reich. Menton, who probably has more than one of these people under his control, hates him. What makes you think anybody's "sponsorship" would make the slightest bit of difference in how Destroyer was handled, even assuming he could find someone willing to take the massive diplomatic and political risks of "sponsoring" him.

 

[Yeah, the Destroyer is a bad man. Sponsorship by a country could earn him the right to speak. The principle reason for placing it in the UNGA is that all nations have the right to put forth their own spokespeople, and that no government can be silenced. I believe many governments would be more than willing to hear him. Please remember, as harsh as this may sound, the US has destroyed a whole lot more cities than Dr. Destroyer has... the US worked with some of the worse despots in modern history... and the US has killed a whole lot of people too. We would be more offended by Dr. Destroyer doing it because he did it to a city and to people we like.]

 

Saddam Hussein, who destroyed no cities, was taken down despite being a recognized national leader with First World nations and long-time US allies running interference for him in the UN. And that's just governments. Superhuman vigilantes who have had friends murdered by Destroyer and his cronies will, I suspect, have much less concern for the diplomatic niceties than any foreign ministry.

 

[such superhuman cronies, I would suggest, are free to attempt an attack on Destroyer... I would suggest that UNTIL and others would do their best to not allow an attack within the headquarters of the UN, perhaps especially against a member's spokesperson/representative. As to attacking him after he left, being the GM, I would have had him teleport out of the building].

 

 

 

Just which nations would these be? Nations sunk in chronic "economic plight" tend to be doctrinaire communist or socialist regimes, or lands torn with tribal or ethnic violence, or comprehensively corrupt dictatorships and oligarchies.

 

[Nations that understand that economic stability is one of the main determinants of political stability, and political stability helps keep them in power. The nations that understand that economic power is the genesis of all power, and if they desire power--as most nations do--they will be inclined to look favorably upon increasing their economic power. Also, nations that do not want to be the ones left out. If you are the leader of Nigeria, for example, you are a power in your neighborhood. If one or more of your neighbors were to begin to get far more economic power, better training for their troops, the most advanced weapons technology in the world, and an 'enforcer' that you do not want to peeve off, and you don't get these things... guess what? Your power and national sovereignty is put at the mercy of your neighbors. Power is relative... if your neighbors increase in power, you need to increase in it as well. I wish I could write more about this... there is an author by the name of Hans Morgenthau... those of you interested in the study of power among nations know him well. I would highly recommend his writings.]

 

Most rulers of such nations care little about "economic plight", except to the extent that it is a direct threat to their continued rule.

 

[it is a direct threat to their continued rule. Regardless of a despot's wealth or power, they tend to want more. This is one of the reasons why many have sold themselves to bigger powers for military and economic aid and protection... perhaps they are not overly concerned about the plight of their people, but few such dictators would not understand how the economic shortcommings of their country do affect them greatly].

 

Such rulers, whatever other faults they may have, are generally cunning and ruthless veterans of vicious political infighting, often in places where the also-rans can count themselves lucky just to get something akin to the quick death Leon Trotsky got.

 

[Well said... These "cunning and ruthless veterans of vicious political infighting" would likely be quite willing to keep themselves atop their societies, and atop their regions even if it means selling their souls to Dr. Destroyer].

 

And these are the guys who are going to roll over at the promise of some technological aid, or a few million more in the old Cayman Islands accounts, from a bombastic German octogenarian in a tin suit?

 

[Just like they do it now to the US and other world powers. The idea of power hungry dictators that want absolute rule selling their allegiance and service to a bigger power is not a new concept. History is replete with examples of this happening. It truly is part of the 'game'. The 'economic south' is ruled by those best able to sell themselves to the north.]

 

 

As to "intimidation", which regimes do you think believe they will get less intimidation from the US by sucking up to a guy like Destroyer?

 

[Those, such as North Korea and Iran, that have observed that the US treats nations with things like WMD MUCH BETTER than the US treats nations that do not have such an ability to hurt the US. As a nation's ability to hurt the US increases, the US becomes more interested in "diplomacy", and is less willing to force its will on them.]

 

 

 

So these hardened maximum-leaders-for-life are going to "protect" their power by, de facto, turning it over to Destroyer? All in return for a luxurious lifestyle, which most of them (unlike Rakshasa) have already?

 

[see comments about already staying in power by selling their allegiance to a bigger power. This is certainly not new}.

 

And the other half of Rakshasa's deal is, "or I'll kill you." Is Destroyer going to threaten all these Third World leaders with outright murder?

 

[Dr. Destroyer commit "outright murder"? See your first paragraph... any leader that would not believe a threat that he would be willing to murder them probably should be removed from the gene pool before he/she breeds ].

 

What will THAT do to his diplomatic status?

 

[i refer you to your earlier comments about his 'diplomatic status'... he is already viewed by many as a bad person, killer, etc. However, I would suggest that, just as the US is able to kill far more than a few leaders, attack population centers/cities, etc., that a willingness to use power in unfriendly ways does not preclude one from diplomatic power.]

 

 

 

These nations apparently found such policies unacceptable even when ruled by one of their own. Why do you think they will suddenly become acceptable under rule from an outsider like Destroyer? Or will he force these policies on "his" people?

 

[Lesser Developed Countries (or LDCs) have not tried to implement the conclusions from the OAU (Organization for African Unity). To do so would threaten military retribution from the US and/or others (ala Congo when they threatened our industrial diamond supply in the early 1960s). The situation would be changed when the US would face massive retalliation for attacking a member of the new world order].

 

 

He couldn't deter an attack on Destruga, which was packed to the brim with his vaunted technology. How is he going to defend an actual nation (or several, possibly non-contiguous), with borders the size of a real nation's? And Destroyer's army of 20,000 troops is chump change in the real war business. It's one division. Sufficient, under modern calculations, to defend perhaps ten kilometers of front line against a determined attack by a competent foe, if its flanks were secure - and that only for long enough to let reserves mount a counterattack.

 

[The 20,000 you refer to are up to 300 points a piece! That is a bit more than just a division of standard grunt troops. I am unsure of your campaign, but in our campaign that would be EXTREMELY difficult to confront. You seem to be schooled in the military--I'm sure that you could probably come up with an impressive list of instances when QUALITY of troops meant more than the QUANTITY. I will throw in one example: In Gulf War One, we were outnumbered 16 divisions to 14. General Schwartzkopf made mention that military calculations that the attacker should outnumber the defender by a ratio of 3:1, and given the fortifications of the Iraqi defenders, the ratio should be closer to 5:1 (SEE "The Briefing" by the General, available on videotape at some libraries). The coalition won with superior firepower, discipline, and superior troops. I would suggest that our troops (as great as I think they are) are NOT 300 points supermen.]

 

Destroyer could perhaps use the peasant conscript armies of the former rulers of his lands for static defensive work, and keep his own troops as a reserve. But Third World conscript armies barely rate as speed bumps before a large, modern, mobile combined-arms force.

 

[Over half of our Army right now is in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting such peasant conscripts. The Army Chief of Staff told the Senate Armed Services committee that he believes the US needs to INCREASE it's presence from 148,000 to 'hundreds of thousands', and leave them there for 'several years'. The US could take any one, maybe two, of these 'peasant armies'... trying to attack too many more--while having to defend the US from the real threat that the US might be the real military target of Dr. Destroyer, or that VIPER or others may take advantage of the US being off fighting Dr. Destroyer cronie armies--would be outside of the capability of the US military for some time. Our ability to prepare for such a fight, ironically, would also depend upon such things as a steady supply of industrial diamonds, and other natural resources that we get from some of the very nations we would be threatening to invade].

 

There are small nations and cartels of nations with near-monopolies on certain exotic minerals with industrial uses. But the forces setting the prices of those items are economic forces, not military forces.

 

[Access to natural resources has long been determined by political and military means. In the early 1960s, the Congo attempted to demand a higher price for their diamonds.. the US accused the government of being communists trying to destabilize the American economy, and invaded.]

 

The Congo can demand any price for diamonds they want, and if their customers don't like it, then <>

 

[they invade ]

 

As for politics, could there be any idea LESS communist than exploiting your monopoly on a natural resource to raise prices obscenely? When communist regimes are attacked, from within or without, it is because the attackers loathe the ideas and methods, and frequently the personalities, of communism, not for specific price breaks on specific items. The idea of launching a war over a few percentage points difference in the price of diamonds is so absurd as to be laughable (which, admittedly, would probably get it approved as a major story arc in a Denny O'Neill book).

 

[2 responses to this one:

 

1. This would seem to make Dr. Destroyer's plan more workable. If the US would not go to war over Dr. Destroyer raising the prices on these commodities, even if Dr. Destroyer has a monopoly and could therefore threaten the economic health of the US economy, then he would not need to worry so much about the military balance or calculations.

 

2. Yes, it is sad... and if it was not so tragic that such wars happen, it would also be 'laughable'. However, we have fought wars over the price of oil. Was that laughable? We have fought wars over the price of industrial diamonds. Was that laughable? Governments (even our own) have fought wars over things that probably shouldn't have justified a war.]

 

 

 

"Virtual slavery"? Yeah, Mobutu, Kanunda, and Mugabe (to name just three) were living in conditions comparable to those of Mississippi field hands circa 1859 - NOT.

 

[i would suggest that the people of many of the lesser developed world live in conditions no better, and often worse, than the Mississippi field hands you refer to. The 'Virtual slavery' is living as a servant to the economic north. The actual slavery suffered by the blacks in the old south is not the only standard of slavery.]

 

And the fact that many of these peoples won't put up with "strong leadership" from outsiders, even ones of the same skin color, is the cause of much of the trouble in many of these nations today.

 

[i am unsure what you mean by this section. Perhaps more explanation if you have a few moments... I would suggest that many people will follow leaders that can deliver a better life for them].

 

If intervening in such a Rwanda-like situation would have given the US an opportunity to grab an enemy who had done them as much harm as Destroyer has, I could about guarantee they'd have intervened.

 

[if Rwanda was part of the new world order, and intervening would threaten massive retaliation against US cities, I could about guarantee they'd NOT intervene. The US didn't want to intervene when doing so was fighting some of those 'peasants' you referred to earlier, why would we intervene if we were confronted with a truly deterring threat? I'm afraid I don't understand this one either...]

 

The entire scenario just seems thoroughly un-Destroyer-like.

 

[i respect your opinion on that. Dr. Destroyer is a student of power, and brilliant beyond much comparison. He rarely likes to soil himself with the menial use of fighting to get what he wants. He is far more prone to use his mind than direct force to accomplish his desire of conquest (which is one of the things that makes him such a big threat). See page 9 of the CKC book for what I mean. A man of that brilliance would likely know that conquering the world, and then trying to hold it, would be a fool's game. He developed and built his suit because he knew that he had to account for the superheroes of the world, heroes that often respect the rule of law and the governments (even dictators). He could easily surmise that they would be less likely to act against him, as some in this thread have pointed out.

 

The people have already grown accustomed to being oppressed by dictatorships--a well trained population would be a good target for Destroyer.

 

The militaries of these nations have plenty of fodder to hold fire while his superior troops chooses the point of attack and moves against the enemy. This is similar to his tactical sense in a superpowered fight--he blasts and observes, then when the enemy has made their move, if necessary he adopts a superior tactic and uses it to defeat his foes (again, see p. 9 of CKC).

 

These nations have an enormous untapped power source (natural resources) that the US and others are highly dependent upon.

 

These nations would also be most likely to enter the new world order.

 

I believe Dr. Destroyer would see these things, and seize the opportunity. I think it would be very much like him.

 

Polaris

 

PS: Very good post, btw..

[Polaris]

Okay, GREAT comments! How about this, as the story goes on: The heroes, wanting to stop Dr. Destroyer move to try to "liberate" the people from the oppression of Dr. Destroyer. As they do so, they find a people that do not want "liberation". Their lives are being improved.

 

Do they continue to fight Dr. Destroyer (at least one poster suggested that if Dr. Destroyer is improving the lives of these people, then the heroes should leave it alone)? Would any heroes seek to take political power upon themselves to save the people from the oppression of Destroyer, while still improving their lot?

 

Since Destroyer's plan would likely include continuing to raise the prices of vitally needed natural resources and draining wealth from the economic north, at what point would the heroes intervene (or would they)?

 

A lot of places you could go with this... I had actually thought it might be good to introduce some relatively new players to the world of Champions. If the heroes took the alliance to stop Dr. Destroyer, then at the end of the story arc, Eurostar would do some particularly nasty betrayal of the heroes (thus setting Eurostar up as the team's main arch nemesis... I like that).

 

Thanks everyone for the comments!! :)

 

Polaris

[Polaris]

I just wanted to add that this is not really based upon my prediction of "this is what 192 diplomats at the United Nations WOULD do in this situation". I suggest that this is a plausible course of events that would present an interesting choice for the players. I tend to like to run stories that give the players choices that question/challenge their values or puts them into a decision ("do we work with Eurostar", for example).

 

Polaris

[Broblawsky]

I think you guys may be forgetting something. Destroyer is nothing like Saddam Hussein. He's Osama Bin Laden, only a thousand times worse; I don't know what the civilian death toll of the Battle of Detroit was, but it must have been something huge. Think about it! Do you seriously think that we wouldn't simply try our damned-est to wipe out any country that proved to be willing to host Destroyer, via any means necessary? Even if it meant retaliation on a massive scale? Seriously, any country stupid enough to host Destroyer and willing submit to hs rule - publicly, no less! - would be wiped out by a coalition of pretty much every other country in the world. Destroyer isn't just a threat to the status quo, he's a terrorist mass-murderer with no equal in our world. Destroyer's organization must be far more feared than Al Qaeda, and look how far we'll go to remove threats like that! Not only is this hugely OOC for Destroyer, but any megalomaniacal supervillian like him - including the Warlord (don't forget, he tried to frickin' conquer VIETNAM) - would be pretty much wiped from the face of the earth the second they tried anything like this, via nuclear means if necessary.