Multipower Variable Slot Question

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

I feel silly asking this, because I'm sure I knew the answer at one time. Oh well.

 

Is it possible to use two slots in a multipower on a sliding scale type offense attack? Example:

 

Multipower (50)

m) 10d6 EB

m) 10d6 Flash v Sight

 

Could this be used to fire a 5d6 EB + 5d6 Flash in a single attack roll?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

No. You can't use different Multipower Slots in a Multiple Power Attack.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. And i'm too impatient to wait till I get home to look it up

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

That said, I'd probably allow it just because I've never, in close to 20 years of playing Hero, seen a PC with a multi slot in an MP, rather than an ultra.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

That said' date=' I'd probably allow it just because I've never, in close to 20 years of playing Hero, seen a PC with a multi slot in an MP, rather than an ultra. [/quote']

 

Really? I used 'em all the time for a Fantasy Hero mage. All magic went into MPs, multislots were the best way to keep costs down on the Pool itself and still be able to cast an array of spells.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Sadly, it looks like I'm not going to break your streak

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

That said' date=' I'd probably allow it just because I've never, in close to 20 years of playing Hero, seen a PC with a multi slot in an MP, rather than an ultra. [/quote']

 

Here's one with both:

 

Mega-Mistress

[Bloodstone]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

That said' date=' I'd probably allow it just because I've never, in close to 20 years of playing Hero, seen a PC with a multi slot in an MP, rather than an ultra. [/quote']

 

Many concepts demand ultra slots.

 

Fewer seem to require flexible slots and often the return is not worth the point investment.

 

That said, I seem to make liberal use of them for metamorps and mentalists...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

I feel silly asking this, because I'm sure I knew the answer at one time. Oh well.

 

Is it possible to use two slots in a multipower on a sliding scale type offense attack? Example:

 

Multipower (50)

m) 10d6 EB

m) 10d6 Flash v Sight

 

Could this be used to fire a 5d6 EB + 5d6 Flash in a single attack roll?

Yes, it can. It's not book-legal according to 5ER, but that's a completely illogical ruling that deserves to be crossed out with a black magic marker. If you pay for the flexibility of multi slots in order to use multiple slots at once (that's what "multi" stands for, after all), then you ought to be able to do so. Sometimes I think that the reason Steve doesn't justify his rule design decisions, is because they can't be justified. (OK, that's harsh, I know. I agree with most of his rulings, but this particular one makes no sense at all, so I say ignore it.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Yes' date=' it can. It's not book-legal according to 5ER, but that's a completely illogical ruling that deserves to be crossed out with a black magic marker. If you pay for the flexibility of multi slots in order to use multiple slots at once (that's what "multi" stands for, after all), then you ought to be able to do so. Sometimes I think that the reason Steve doesn't justify his rule design decisions, is because they can't be justified. (OK, that's harsh, I know. I agree with most of his rulings, but this particular one makes no sense at all, so I say ignore it.)[/quote']

 

Agreed - the rule makes no sense. As well, it was a specific rule change from 5e to 5er, something DoJ repeatedly claimed was not going to happen.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Actually the rule is matched by the rules for Force Fields and Force Walls within a Multipower.

 

The rules allow a 10 point multi-slot FF 25pd 25ed (full 50 point reserve allocation) to be used at less than full power at the same ratio (10pd 1ed @ 20 reserve, etc...)

 

However, the rules do not allow the ratio to be

1. dropped (50pd 0ed ff @ 50 reserver)

2. or changed (25pd 0ed @ 25 reserve).

 

To further complicate matters, it IS rules legal (but subject to GM approval as usual) to purchase each Force Field Defense as a separate mult-slot to partially circumvent this rule.

 

example:

5m 25pd ff

5m 25ed ff

2m 10 power defense ff

 

note that this allows for option 2 but not option 1 in my previous example.

 

If a GM allows unfettered mix&match MPA's from within the same multipower then fairness demands that all multi-slot FFields be treated this way as well.

 

I believe that this would encourage players to build Multipowers with every variety of attack and Force Field defense as opposed to just building what fits their non-hero mechanics special effect for their character.

[Kenn]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

yes' date=' It Can. It's Not Book-legal According To 5er, But That's A Completely Illogical Ruling That Deserves To Be Crossed Out With A Black Magic Marker. If You Pay For The Flexibility Of Multi Slots In Order To Use Multiple Slots At Once (that's What "multi" Stands For, After All), Then You Ought To Be Able To Do So. Sometimes I Think That The Reason Steve Doesn't Justify His Rule Design Decisions, Is Because They Can't Be Justified. (ok, That's Harsh, I Know. I Agree With Most Of His Rulings, But This Particular One Makes No Sense At All, So I Say Ignore It.)[/quote']

 

Amen!

[archermoo]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Yes' date=' it can. It's not book-legal according to 5ER, but that's a completely illogical ruling that deserves to be crossed out with a black magic marker. If you pay for the flexibility of multi slots in order to use multiple slots at once (that's what "multi" stands for, after all), then you ought to be able to do so. Sometimes I think that the reason Steve doesn't justify his rule design decisions, is because they can't be justified. (OK, that's harsh, I know. I agree with most of his rulings, but this particular one makes no sense at all, so I say ignore it.)[/quote']

 

Well, in that light you can do anything you want without regard to the actual rules. However I think the intent of the question was not "Does this sound like a good idea" but "Is it legal under the rules to do this".

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

If a GM allows unfettered mix&match MPA's from within the same multipower then fairness demands that all multi-slot FFields be treated this way as well.

I don't think it has anything to do with Multipower. That's just the rules for Force Field (and Wall). If you buy a 25/25 FF, the PD and ED have to remain equal when you use it.

 

a) 50 25/25 FF

Costs 50 points

 

50 MP

Slot 1 10m 50 PD FF

Slot 2 10m 50 ED FF

Costs 70 points - you pay extra for the flexibility.

[Kdansky]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

And there is actually a "move PD <-> ED around" advantage, you know, at least I saw it in a supplement (ultimate something I think). That was priced at +1/2 to +1, I'm not sure, but +1 seems excessively expensive. I would allow the flexible slot version, assuming that the PC does not go overboard.

 

FF 40 points

8: 30/10

8: 10/30

definitely going to fly with me

 

FF 40

8: 40/0

8: 0/40

borderline

 

pool 40

2u: 20/0

2u: 0/20

4f: 20/0

4f: 0/20

2u: 10 powerdefense

2u: 10 flashdefense

2u: 10 mental defense

 

not so much.

 

Flash example from above: Go ahead. It's a rather weak construct to begin with. Using an attack at less than 8d6 of 10d6 will probably bounce off completely and you would rather use 10d6 flash instead anyway... I'd rather buy the Attack with ultra slots and a small flash linked to the EB slot if you want to have both effects at once.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

And there is actually a "move PD <-> ED around" advantage' date=' you know, at least I saw it in a supplement (ultimate something I think). That was priced at +1/2 to +1, I'm not sure, but +1 seems excessively expensive. I would allow the flexible slot version, assuming that the PC does not go overboard.[/quote']

 

The Advantage is in the Ultimate Energy Projector.

 

There's actually a lengthy thread around here where folks argue for and against the balance of the Defensive MP:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56578

[Bloodstone]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Agreed - the rule makes no sense. As well' date=' it was a specific rule change from 5e to 5er, something DoJ repeatedly claimed was not going to happen.[/quote']

 

5E didn't have the rule prohibiting two powers from a single framework from being combined into a MPA?

 

I swear that's been around longer than 5ER, but I don't have a copy of 5E handy to check...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

The Advantage is in the Ultimate Energy Projector.

 

There's actually a lengthy thread around here where folks argue for and against the balance of the Defensive MP:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56578

 

You actually read that whole thread?!?

 

I thought it was Hugh and Gary doing the HERO version of the classic "Who's on First?" (Abbot and Costello).

 

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

5E didn't have the rule prohibiting two powers from a single framework from being combined into a MPA?

 

I swear that's been around longer than 5ER, but I don't have a copy of 5E handy to check...

 

I think you can find the difference in the online FAQ.

Just do a search under the specific rulebook (5e or 5er).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

I think you can find the difference in the online FAQ.

Just do a search under the specific rulebook (5e or 5er).

 

Ok, there is a difference, but it only applies to EC's.

 

In 5E you are allowed to MPA with different attack powers in an EC. 5ER rules against that. But the FAQ says you CAN MPA with different slots of an MP or VPP so long as you have enough reserve points. The 5ER language clears that up a bit better than the 5E answer does.

 

Can a character use a slot in a Power Framework as the attack for a Sweep, or as part of a multiple-Power attack?

 

A character could use a Power Framework slot as one of the powers in a multiple-Power attack, provided the following apply: it’s the only power in the Framework used in the attack; the Framework is a Multipower/VPP with enough reserve/pool points to allocate to two or more slots used in the attack simultaneously; the Framework is an EC with two or more Attack Powers.

 

 

Can a character use a slot in a Power Framework as the attack for a Sweep, or as part of a multiple-Power attack?

 

A character could use a Power Framework slot as one of the powers in a multiple-Power attack, provided one of the following applies: it’s the only power in the Framework used in the attack; the Framework is a Multipower/VPP with enough reserve/pool points to allocate to two or more slots used in the attack simultaneously. Per 5ER 315, a character can’t use two or more slots in an EC as part of a multiple-power attack without the GM’s permission.

 

I snipped the rest, as it was about Sweep and GM adjudication of which MP SFXs should allow MPAs.

 

So, it looks like not only am I remembering it wrong from 5E but I'm also doing it wrong in 5ER!

 

Or has me reading comprehension just caught the dumb?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

This might need revisiting in the Rules Forum but I highlighted and reformatted the section that we are getting confused on.

 

Originally Posted by 5ER FAQ

Can a character use a slot in a Power Framework as the attack for a Sweep, or as part of a multiple-Power attack?

 

A character could use a Power Framework slot as one of the powers in a multiple-Power attack, provided one of the following applies:

 

1. it’s the only power in the Framework used in the attack;
   
2. the Framework is a Multipower/VPP with enough reserve/pool points to allocate to two or more slots used in the attack simultaneously.
   

Per 5ER 315, a character can’t use two or more slots in an EC as part of a multiple-power attack without the GM’s permission.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

This might need revisiting in the Rules Forum but I highlighted and reformatted the section that we are getting confused on.

So, looking at point 2) on the FAQ there, then my original proposition would be legal? Or does it mean I would need enough points in the pool to pay for the full slot even if it is a multi and I only use half of the points?

[Maur]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Depends on if you bought the slot as an ultra or variable. If you bought it as an ultra, then it eats up the full points even when used at a reduced level.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Agreed based on the FAQ, but lets ask Steve, just to be sure

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1615458#post1615458

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower Variable Slot Question

 

Ok, there is a difference, but it only applies to EC's.

 

In 5E you are allowed to MPA with different attack powers in an EC. 5ER rules against that. But the FAQ says you CAN MPA with different slots of an MP or VPP so long as you have enough reserve points. The 5ER language clears that up a bit better than the 5E answer does.

 

No, I'm 100% certain 5e prohibited use of multiple attack powers in an EC for an MPA. It was OK for powers in other frameworks as long as you had enough reserve to use them at the same time.