Game Mechanics

[Qelan]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

If there were a Memory Group, would Darkness (Memory Group) make you (temporarily) forget *everything*? After all, it completely blocks that "Group".

 

 

If that worked it would really produce some interesting effects and dialogue after you turn it off.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

If that worked it would really produce some interesting effects and dialogue after you turn it off.

 

Presuming you remembered how to turn it off.

 

But the thing is, I belive the game presumes (rightly so) that memory is internal to the character. Memory is something we have, not something we perceive. And the only way to change something internal to the character is with Transformation.

[GMumford]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

There was a character in LSH. Dream Girl had a dream of him which Braniac was able to record, but DG had no memory of him in her dream. Braniac was sitting in his lab trying to figure out who it was in this picture of DG's dream when he entered Braniac's lab. Braniac instantly remembered everything about him and he spelled his plot to destroy the universe and left. Braniac went back to trying to figure out who it was in the picture of DG's dream.

 

And an episode of Star Trek: Voyager. Chakotay fell in love with a member of a forgettable race. It ended with Chakotay writing the adventure down with pencil and paper in hopes the forgettable race's technology wouldn't erase it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

Well, memory is usually an INT roll, isn't it? How about

 

Change Environment, -1 to INT rolls [1" radius], -25 to INT rolls [75] 80 points; 0 END [+1/2], Persistent [+1/2] AP 160, no range [-1/2], Always On [-1/2], Self Only [only affects rolls to remember character; -1/2], not while in character's presence [-1/2] Real Cost 64 points

 

"self only" means the cobat effects only apply to the character himself.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

This IMO is an offensive power -- the ability to erase specific memories. As such' date=' it needs a way to defend against its use.[/quote']

 

Then Invisibility would be the incorrect method to model it in your games. As there's no way to "prevent" Invisibility in the system. Therefore - my answer to you use: Use a different Power.

[ideasmith]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

Well, memory is usually an INT roll, isn't it? How about

 

Change Environment, -1 to INT rolls [1" radius], -25 to INT rolls [75] 80 points; 0 END [+1/2], Persistent [+1/2] AP 160, no range [-1/2], Always On [-1/2], Self Only [only affects rolls to remember character; -1/2], not while in character's presence [-1/2] Real Cost 64 points

 

"self only" means the cobat effects only apply to the character himself.

 

As this power is written, only characters right next to the character would have their INT rolls penalized. Also, memory often needs no roll whatsoever.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

I'm not exactly sure why that's relevant.

 

You can't stop someone from using most Powers in the system. If any.

 

How do you stop someone from using Armor in the first place?

Or any other Persistent Power?

 

That doesn't answer my question. My question was how do you stop it from working, not how do you stop it from happening.

 

All or nearly all powers have some method of stopping them from working.

 

Especially the powers that affect other people.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

That doesn't answer my question. My question was how do you stop it from working, not how do you stop it from happening.

 

All or nearly all powers have some method of stopping them from working.

 

Especially the powers that affect other people.

 

How do you stop the following from working:

 

Invisibility (not offensive but affects others perception)

Change Environment (an "offensive" Power in many cases)

Armor

Force Field

Force Wall

Darkness (another "offensive" Power I'll note)

Shape Shift (not offensive, but affects others perception)

 

I think what you want to say is "What's the defense against this Power were I to consider it an Attack Power."

 

which is a completely different question.

 

The answer is: Invisibility is not an Attack Power, it's a Body Affecting Power. Invisible: Sight/Hearing let's you sneak into a room, steal the jailers keys and then go free your friends. There's no "way to prevent you from using the power" at all, but the Jailer cannot see or hear you - in that context it's the same as "the jailer can't remember you after a conversation because his brain simply doesn't register there's anything to remember" like "his eyes don't register that there's anything to see" in the case of our sneak stealing his keys.

 

This Power does assume that one considers Memory a form of Sense within the context of the game. If you do not consider Memory to function that way then this is not the correct construct for you to use. I would suggest the standby Mental Transform as that IS a directly Offensive Power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

As this power is written' date=' only characters right next to the character would have their INT rolls penalized. Also, memory often needs no roll whatsoever.[/quote']

 

First, please review 5er p 138, under Limitations, Self Only. This is used for a CE that affects only attempts to perceive or affect the character. The area need not include the character trying to remember, only the one he will have penalties against remembering.

 

Second, note that

If applicable' date=' the combat effect includes forcing an affected character to make at least one Characteristic , Skill or PER roll. For example, if a character enters a Change Environment field that imposes a -3 to DEX rolls, it doesn't just affect any DEX rolls he has to make for other reasons - he has to make a DEX roll when enteringh the field, at the listed penalty.[/quote']

 

Combine the two, and anyone trying to remember the character must make an INT roll at -21 to do so. Automatic memory is overidden.

 

Success is sufficiently unlikely for me to apply the "absolute" option. Now, this assumes I want to allow the "character cannot be remembered" build. If not, I'm not allowing it regardless of mechanic. if I am, the CE approach seems a rules-legal construction.

 

I only fell over the Self Only rule by accident - my first thought was 1 hex no range CE with enough Megascale to cover the planet (+3 covers 10x the solar system; more would be needed for a gamatcic-scale game), but self only matches exactly what the ability is intended to achieve.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

I think this character could fairly easily be simulated with "functional invisibility". That is, when he doesn't want to be noticed, he's "invisible" to organic senses. This means that things like tripwires, door sensors, cameras, etc. might be able to "detect" him, depending on how you want it to work. The special effects aren't that he's invisible, but observers are forgetting every moment that they just saw the guy.

 

This way no-one is forming memories that the guy was there in the first place, because they (mechanically) fail to perceive him. If he's blocking someone's view while he's "invisible", the person affected will (once again, special effects) simply think they're seeing what they expected to see. Ways to defeat this might be watching/listening to the character with electronic or magical senses, putting flypaper on the floor of a room so you can see if anyone's walked through lately, etc. If someone deduces the presence of someone they can't "see" (because they're forgetting from moment to moment that he's in the room) they still may decide there's someone invisible nearby.

[Qelan]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

Well, memory is usually an INT roll, isn't it? How about

 

Change Environment, -1 to INT rolls [1" radius], -25 to INT rolls [75] 80 points; 0 END [+1/2], Persistent [+1/2] AP 160, no range [-1/2], Always On [-1/2], Self Only [only affects rolls to remember character; -1/2], not while in character's presence [-1/2] Real Cost 64 points

 

I like this idea maybe more then the invisibility, instead of a -20 INT roll I would go with a -3 (if it was an NPC) because this would make it easier to have dialogue about the memory thief that is terrorizing the team.

 

 

I think this character could fairly easily be simulated with "functional invisibility". That is, when he doesn't want to be noticed, he's "invisible" to organic senses. This means that things like tripwires, door sensors, cameras, etc. might be able to "detect" him, depending on how you want it to work. The special effects aren't that he's invisible, but observers are forgetting every moment that they just saw the guy.

 

This makes a good case how invisibility could simulate the effect…err, in other words I agree with you.

 

Several good points throught the thread

[SteveZilla]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

This way no-one is forming memories that the guy was there in the first place' date=' because they (mechanically) fail to perceive him. If he's blocking someone's view while he's "invisible, the person affected will (once again, special effects) simply [i']think[/i] they're seeing what they expected to see. Ways to defeat this might be watching/listening to the character with electronic or magical senses, putting flypaper on the floor of a room so you can see if anyone's walked through lately, etc. If someone deduces the presence of someone they can't "see" (because they're forgetting from moment to moment that he's in the room) they still may decide there's someone invisible nearby.

 

What about the memories of yourself remembering something?

 

IMO this is an extremely powerful ability that has deep ramifications (it lets one character directly manipulate something that is IMO deeply internal to another character). It also (as described, not necessarily as built), seems to have NND qualities -- only without any appreciable defense. I would likely not let a PC have this in an "automatic" form -- they'd have to use an action to erase someone's memory (with IMO Transform).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

If I was going to allow this at all, I wuold not go the invisibility route nor, indeed, teh CE route as that would only affect the target whilst they were a target - it would not (absent considerable handwaving) have a permanent effect on memory.

 

Whilst I'm all for innovation with powers, and I might - might - allow a limited version of the 'memory invisibility' power (for example if it were to be limited to not being able to remember someone's name then I'd perhaps allow Invisibility with IPE on the babsis that you simply do not sense his name (or some other specific details, for instance a description), but, because of the IPE, you do not notice that a power is at work, and so it does not seem to jar.

 

I have built Invisibility with IPE before to simulate the 'Morpheus Effect' - you know when he walks down the street with his hands behind his back (I'm on about the Matrix) and everyone avoids him - he's not invisible but no one notices him. That's quite different though as it is no more powerful than regular invisibility.

 

If you want to prevent someone from remembering something or make them forget there are two basic approaches. The first is to make them actually sense something other than what is really happeneing, which you could do with images, mental illusions or many of the sense-affecting powers. I'd probably let you get away with shapeshift (sight); non-specific, each time someone perceives you theuy perceive you as someone else.

 

The other approach requires far more interevention and can only really be accomplished by a mental transform or perhaps a mind control (do not recall the following details). generally, for a MC, I'd suggest that might just be a roll in excess of EGO BUT if evidence is presented that you SHOULD remember, the level goes up to EGO+10 or EGO+20. EGO+30 will definitely prevent you remembering a specific thing no matter what BUT unless you take the additional 'won't remember being affected by power' adder for level of effect the character will know they have been got at and may even realise they have been made to forget something - but won't recall what.

 

OTOH how the power is to be used is important. If it is just a 'cool' power, I might allow it to slide as invisibility to memory.

 

But probably not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

First' date=' please review 5er p 138, under Limitations, Self Only. This is used for a CE that affects only attempts to perceive or affect the character. The area need not include the character trying to remember, only the one he will have penalties against remembering.[/quote']

 

...but the effect still goes away when the power turns off, or you get out of range

 

Second, note that

 

 

Combine the two, and anyone trying to remember the character must make an INT roll at -21 to do so. Automatic memory is overidden.

 

Success is sufficiently unlikely for me to apply the "absolute" option. Now, this assumes I want to allow the "character cannot be remembered" build. If not, I'm not allowing it regardless of mechanic. if I am, the CE approach seems a rules-legal construction.

 

I only fell over the Self Only rule by accident - my first thought was 1 hex no range CE with enough Megascale to cover the planet (+3 covers 10x the solar system; more would be needed for a gamatcic-scale game), but self only matches exactly what the ability is intended to achieve.

 

Megascale: that would just about cover it

 

Watchtower Memory Supression Field: Change Environment 1" radius, -8 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), MegaScale AoE (1" = 10 million km; +2), Invisible Power Effects, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible; +2) (156 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to make people forget about me; -1), No Range (-1/2) 62 real points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

...but the effect still goes away when the power turns off' date=' or you get out of range[/quote']

 

It's persistent and always on. It doesn't turn off.

 

Where is "out of range"? The example of this construct in the book imposes minuses to PER rolls, and the discussion notes that it would rarely need more than one hex of effect, unless the user is especially large. It doesn't need to cover the person trying to remember - it need only cover the person he is trying to remember. By the book, that is sufficient.

 

 

Megascale: that would just about cover it

 

Watchtower Memory Supression Field: Change Environment 1" radius, -8 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), MegaScale AoE (1" = 10 million km; +2), Invisible Power Effects, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible; +2) (156 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to make people forget about me; -1), No Range (-1/2) 62 real points

 

It should also be Always On, and it is still Self Only.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

It's persistent and always on. It doesn't turn off.

 

Where is "out of range"? The example of this construct in the book imposes minuses to PER rolls, and the discussion notes that it would rarely need more than one hex of effect, unless the user is especially large. It doesn't need to cover the person trying to remember - it need only cover the person he is trying to remember. By the book, that is sufficient.

 

Range, for CE, is 5x points, so if you are outside that area/range then you no longer have INT supressed and you can remember just fine.

 

Like I say, megascale would cover it, but it just seems daft to me. Also, should someone actually work out that their memories are being supressed (by, for instance, deduction), then a CE build is a bit awkward to counter. You could buy a dispel or supress, or a drain...but when you have an enormous AoE I'm never quite sure what you target the drain/supress/dispel on - the actual effect generator, or any part of the effect.

 

The weird thing is that, if the power ever was turned off, despite the 'always on', everyone would remember - the memories are not gone, they are just repressed. Of course most effects work that way, even a mental transform (although it wouldn't cause everyone to remember if turned off until t ehy had 'healed' the memories back).

 

Invisibility would prevent the memories ever being recorded, but would not allow interaction.

 

Do you know, I'm shading towards shapeshift: shapeshift to someone not worth remembering anything about (bought for all senses): the memories are recorded as inconsequential, so whilst they are there, you tend not to remember them, and you can't actually recall any details...but there is clearly someone there to interact with.

 

That seems much more satisfying then blanketting the entire solar system with an energy field, but horses for courses.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

The weird thing is that' date=' if the power ever was turned off, despite the 'always on', everyone would remember - the memories are not gone, they are just repressed.[/quote']

 

And this is one of the things IMO that separates a Comic Book (where the plot and all actions are worked out beforehand, regardless of fairness or balance), and a RPG (where fairness and balance usually are paramount). I.e., that other characters cannot usually make absolute/permanent changes to your character (as a default), as those can often be unbalanced and unfair to that character.

 

Of course most effects work that way' date=' even a mental transform (although it wouldn't cause everyone to remember if turned off until they had 'healed' the memories back).[/quote']

 

Right. This is a reasonably balanced and fair method (IMO).

 

Invisibility would prevent the memories ever being recorded' date=' but would not allow interaction.[/quote']

 

Right. If the character never perceives something, how could he remember it? And as Sean points out, that also precludes interaction.

 

Not only does one remember perceiving a subject, one also remembers interacting with that subject. And also remembering perceiving, and remembering interacting -- while perceiving and interacting. This IMO is a significantly parallel process (i.e., memory is) -- the "hall of mirrors" effect, as it were.

 

Do you know' date=' I'm shading towards shapeshift: shapeshift to someone not worth remembering anything about (bought for all senses): the memories are recorded as inconsequential, so whilst they are there, you tend not to remember them, and you can't actually recall any details...but there is clearly someone there to interact with.[/quote']

 

The problem is that any interaction this character has also has to be inconsequential, or else the interaction, IMO by extension, the person, becomes memorable. If Mr.-Average-John-Q.-Public walks up to you and asks the time -- easily forgettable. If he walks up and starts talking about quantum physics -- not easily forgettable.

 

That seems much more satisfying then blanketting the entire solar system with an energy field' date=' but horses for courses.[/quote']

 

True, but I propose that this is one of the few powers that while it technically can be built (in a limited form) in Hero System, it doesn't translate 1:1 (and because of fairness & balance, it IMO shouldn't). This is not because of a shortcoming of The Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit, but because of the different mediums (Comic Books vs RPGs).

 

Another question to ask about this power would be:

 

Would someone interacting with the person remotely (say by telephone/vid-phone, email, online chat, snail mail, etc.) remember him?

 

What about someone viewing this character remotely, say by using some form of Clairsentience? Would they remember viewing this character?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

Range' date=' for CE, is 5x points, so if you are outside that area/range then you no longer have INT supressed and you can remember just fine.[/quote']

 

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe if you read the "self only" discussion under CE, you will find that range is meaningless. The CE always targets the character's hex. All people, regardless of range, suffer the CE penalty against the character that the "self only" affects unless he somehow manages to leave his own hex.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

I don't have the book in front of me' date=' but I believe if you read the "self only" discussion under CE, you will find that range is meaningless. The CE always targets the character's hex. All people, regardless of range, suffer the CE penalty against the character that the "self only" affects unless he somehow manages to leave his own hex.[/quote']

 

5ER, p128, under "Self Only(-1/2)". This is not the standard way that Self Only works, so it is understandable that those who aren't aware of this power-specific variation might be confused.

 

"... that only applies it's combat effects with respect to attempts to affect or perceive him. ... doesn't cover an area, only his person.

...

If the character or object is larger than human size, the CE should have a radius equal in size to the character or object's largest dimension."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

5ER, p128, under "Self Only(-1/2)". This is not the standard way that Self Only works, so it is understandable that those who aren't aware of this power-specific variation might be confused.

 

"... that only applies it's combat effects with respect to attempts to affect or perceive him. ... doesn't cover an area, only his person.

...

If the character or object is larger than human size, the CE should have a radius equal in size to the character or object's largest dimension."

 

Thanks for the quotes and page references! Unfortunately "you must spread rep around".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

*sigh* I tell you what I am going to lobby for in 6th edition:

 

1. Not calling two quite different things by the same label, and

2. Not using limitations as advantages.

 

Buy 'self only', discount the cost of the power AND get to ignore the range/AoE thing.

 

I imagine that this was brought in to deal with the situation where someone is perceiving into an area which is defined as 'foggy' or whatever: if you are outside you can't see in (or get a PER penalty) just like you can't see through a darkness field, even if you are not in it.

 

If that is right, it is not affecting the perceiver it is simply putting up a barrier to perception...but the PER of the perceiver is unaffected. So it would make no sense to allow someone looking at a person using CE to be affected by, for instance, having their memories supressed. I can see someone who is looking at the person using the power having (for instance) a reduced INT ('He looked so...confusing') but I cannot imagine for a moment that this was meant to have a 'permanent' effect on the perceiver: they do not remain confused when not looking at the person using the power.

 

They remember being confused by the persons appearance and they probably still can't recall what they actually looked like, but that is because they did not properly perceive them in the first place, rather than because their memories were messed with, so there is nothing accurate to recall.

 

I don't think this version of 'self only' is an appropriate use in the current context as a 'permanent' memory supression power.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

Well, "Self Only" technically means it can only affect one's self in some manner. If that's on a beneficial power like Aid or Healing, everything is hunky-dory. But since one wouldn't put Self Only on an Attack Power and expect to damage themselves, it seems that Self Only would have two functions.

 

1. Limits beneficial powers to only helping you, not anybody else.

2. Limits harmful powers to only harming others with respect to you. (Normally, Area and Range would matter, but when dealing with PER modification, it's all Line Of Sight).

 

Though I do think that this use of CE should also have Personal Immunity, so that Self Only becomes essentially the "cashing in" of the Area aspect of the power.

 

I have seen some people put things like "No Area, Personal Target" in place of Self Only in thsese situations for the same -1/2 value.

 

And I don't think there should ever be a *permanent* memory prevention/suppression power. IMO it's in the same category as a Fully Invisible Power Effects Darkness Field.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

Why couldn’t memory be a sense? What is memory and how does it work? Can you buy invisibility to unusual sense groups or specific detect powers? Anyway' date=' as you were saying, it really depends on the GM running the game.[/quote']

 

Senses and sense groups allow the perceiver to detect details about the outside world.

 

Memory allows the rememberer to recall details about things that are stored inside the brain.

 

So, to affect a sense group, you could be affecting the transmission media of whatever sense that was, turning off the lights affects sight, a white noise generator makes hearing difficult or impossible, etc.

 

These things can be done without directly affecting the person. (although doing something about the taste or touch groups might be a borderline case)

 

To affect memory, you have to affect a person's brain and that starts to sound a lot like an offensive power to me.

 

Trust me, you don't want to start making arbitrary and abstract things senses, because then you start getting into situations like, oh - I flash your sense of time and now you don't get any more actions. Stupid things like that happen.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

Well, "Self Only" technically means it can only affect one's self in some manner. If that's on a beneficial power like Aid or Healing, everything is hunky-dory. But since one wouldn't put Self Only on an Attack Power and expect to damage themselves, it seems that Self Only would have two functions.

 

1. Limits beneficial powers to only helping you, not anybody else.

2. Limits harmful powers to only harming others with respect to you. (Normally, Area and Range would matter, but when dealing with PER modification, it's all Line Of Sight).

 

Though I do think that this use of CE should also have Personal Immunity, so that Self Only becomes essentially the "cashing in" of the Area aspect of the power.

 

I have seen some people put things like "No Area, Personal Target" in place of Self Only in thsese situations for the same -1/2 value.

 

And I don't think there should ever be a *permanent* memory prevention/suppression power. IMO it's in the same category as a Fully Invisible Power Effects Darkness Field.

 

I don't think a 'harmful' power can harm others with respect to you at all if you are not within the range/AoE of the power. The 'self only' use for CE works ONLY when something happens to you that others can perceive (or that makes you harder for others to perceive). A self only CE can never, ever, under any circumstances, 'harm' anyone else.

 

Sure that's a judgment call, and there it is, made, but not made arbitrarily. If you can affect the memory of someone who look sat you then why can't you, for instance, damage someone who looks at you with a self only CE? Because that is self evidently daft, but, take away the trimmings, and that is what is being suggested.

 

I think BNakagawa has the right of it: you have to be terribly careful in making up senses for the arbitrary and abstract, or better yet, not do it at all. Just because you can do anything with Hero doesn't mean it is a good idea to.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Game Mechanics

 

I don't think a 'harmful' power can harm others 'with respect to you' at all if you are not within the range/AoE of the power. The 'self only' use for CE works ONLY when something happens to you that others can perceive (or that makes you harder for others to perceive). A self only CE can never, ever, under any circumstances, 'harm' anyone else.

 

Sure that's a judgement call, and there it is, made, but not made arbitrarily. If you can affect the memory of someone who look sat you then why can't you, for instance, damage someone who looks at you with a self only CE? Because that is self evidently daft, but, take away th etrimmings, and that is what is being suggested.

 

I agree that looking at you wouldn't carry a CE - NR/SO with a damage componenet to them. But PER modifiers are a different matter altogether. If I have a regular CE that imposes a -8 PER roll, does it not impose that -8 on not only anybody who is within it's area, but also those who are looking into/though the area?

 

And with regards to this issue, I think that PER, Temperature Levels, and OCV modifers (it's a "deflection field") are the only acceptable use of a No Range/Self Only CE. All other modifers get too wacky in that build -- like INT Rolls (to remember something).

 

I think BNakagawa has the right of it: you have to be terribly careful in making up senses for the arbitrary and abstract' date=' or better yet, not do it at all. Just because you can do anything with Hero doesn't mean it is a good idea to.[/quote']

 

I agree! I don't want someone flashing my sense of self!