Multitarget Abilities

[Memona]

I'm working on a character that has four different multipower pools with the exact same powers in each, and he can dish out from each of these pool during combat.

 

One of the disadvantages of the slots is that the character cannot target the same opponent twice with his blast. Now there comes the rub.

 

The second, third and fourth multipower pools should gain the modifier but what about the first? The first could always just single target and not even worry about the other three.

 

What do you think?

 

I've also encountered a problem with more than one multipowers with the same power set. Should I remove one power per slot? The character cannot use the same power he is using in another slot, so he can't chain four RKA, but he can switch it up to an EB, TK, RKA and Entangle. Should I remove a few to shave a few points or remove a few for simplicity sake?

[Maelstrom]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Wow. Um . . . wow. This is a really complicated setup. What's the special effect?

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

He's a Beholder from D&D.

 

If you don't know what that is, it's an orb of flesh with a ton of eyes that shoot laser beams that have different powers.

[Beast]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

here is a simple way to do that

 

1 mulitpower with all 11 powers

it has a normal speed of 4(can move,attack, recover,etc..)

then you buy +8 speed only for attacks(cannot move,recover,dodge,etc..)

then have it attack every segment give it the limitation it may only use each slot once per turn(-1/4)

 

Steve Long wrote up Grond in CKC with a +2 Speed for attacks only at -1 plus some other limitation(act 11-, costs end)which you do not need

 

you are going to burn through End like there is no tomorrow so buy it down and give it a large recovery and Endurance

 

He's a Beholder from D&D.

 

If you don't know what that is, it's an orb of flesh with a ton of eyes that shoot laser beams that have different powers.

[CoreBrute]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

I feel, since your trying to be a beholder, here is what you want sfx wise.

 

You want the ability to shoot a lazer beam of the exact same power from his various eyes right? But shoot it repeatedly.

 

I feel it would be far simpler just buying the power as an autofire and with the combat maneuver sweep, thus you can attack multiple targets at once. Far simpler, and you don't need so many multipowers.

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

You want the ability to shoot a lazer beam of the exact same power from his various eyes right? But shoot it repeatedly.

 

It would be easier if I wanted to use the same attack repeatedly, but that's not the effect I'm going for. I want a power that shoots four (out of ten) different laser beams at different opponents.

[gregor3d]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Sounds like what you want to do would fit more in line with a elemental control then a multipower. With the limatation on it "only one beam can effect any one target at a time", but better worded then that . That way you can use multiply powers in a phase as once or the same one on multiply targets.

[Vulcan]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Two things about Beholders (at least the classic D&D variety).

 

First, they can use all their eyes at once, any eyes that can bear on a target. So EC's & MP's are pretty much right out. It's a big MPA that, by special effect, can target multiple opponents. If you feel that is too much for the FX, add a +100 point power 'can target multiple opponents with MPA's.' This relates to my second point: They are almost always NPC's. So figuring out an efficient point build isn't necessary. Give it all of the powers you want it to have straight and let the points fall where they will.

 

Just make sure not to overwhelm your PC's, Beholders are nasty in D&D. The HERO version could be nastier... keep it's OCV a point or two below the campaign average DCV to counter the large number of attacks it will make.

[gmurie]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

I'd just do it as an EC with a set of limitations thus:

 

Restrainable - Flash Attacks will knock out powers for duration of flash (-1/2)

Limited Power - Doing X damage to eye destroys it for the day (-1/4)

Limited Power - Can only bring three/four eyes to bear in each arc (-1/4)

 

A beholder is going to be a whale of a lot of points.

 

I think what you should do is make a character sheet in champions based on the DESCRIPTION in the MM rather than the D&D STATISTICS. It requires you to be less anal retentive, but is easier and no less entertaining for players.

[clsage]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

He's a Beholder from D&D.

 

If you don't know what that is, it's an orb of flesh with a ton of eyes that shoot laser beams that have different powers.

 

Since I don't think anyone has posted this link yet:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscreatures/games/dnd/beholder.html

 

The page also has a HD3 file version, for ease of modification (for those having Hero Designer).

 

Even if it isn't exactly what you are looking for, it might give you a starting point to build and modify off of.

 

-Carl-

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Since I don't think anyone has posted this link yet:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta.../beholder.html

 

The page also has a HD3 file version, for ease of modification (for those having Hero Designer).

 

Even if it isn't exactly what you are looking for, it might give you a starting point to build and modify off of.

 

That build is not legal under the RAW. Notice how it has one multipower yet calls for them to use two attacks from within the pool.

 

I am using it as a springboard, I used that version for about a year or so. But it's time for an update, with powers that work. It doesn't have to be simple, it only has to be playable.

 

I think what you should do is make a character sheet in champions based on the DESCRIPTION in the MM rather than the D&D STATISTICS. It requires you to be less anal retentive, but is easier and no less entertaining for players.

 

I've simplified it enough that it's not really a problem. I think I've simplified it down to it's core description: it's eyes should only be allowed to hit one target and he cannot use the same beam while the other is active. The powers themselves can change, as long as they are in the 'spirit' in being a Beholder.

 

These problems still do not answer my prime question:

 

If an attack cannot target the same target should it be placed on the multipowers or just the second set on?

 

Restrainable - Flash Attacks will knock out powers for duration of flash (-1/2)

 

Good show. I do like that idea.

[QueenOfItAll]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

That build is not legal under the RAW. Notice how it has one multipower yet calls for them to use two attacks from within the pool.

 

Are you sure about this? As I understand it, one can use more than one slot in a Multipower simultaneously, so long as one has sufficient Pool Points to distribute to more than one Power.

 

What one can't do is make a Multiple Power Attack with different slots from the same Multipower.

[clsage]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

That build is not legal under the RAW. Notice how it has one multipower yet calls for them to use two attacks from within the pool.

 

As long as powers are defined with the pool as "multi's" (ie: variable level as opposed to fixed (AKA "ultra's")) and the pool has sufficient points there is no issue. Yes, ultra's are cheaper than multi's and can provide certain effects that a build concept requires at times, but they are not the only way to put things into a multipower. Review pages 316 thru 322 with special attention to the "buying slots" heading starting on page 317. (5th Ed Revised)

 

-Carl-

[gmurie]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

If an attack cannot target the same target should it be placed on the multipowers or just the second set on?

 

That's just an additional limitation I think, and a decently hefty one:

 

Limited power, only one beam can be used at a time on any one target each phase (-1/2)

 

The wording's awkward, but there it is. Put in the limited attack arcs limit of (1/4) and you could conceivably slap all of those eye powers in an EC and have it not cost all that many points after all. Though I'd think the anti-magic primary eye is a suppress vs. all magic at once, and outside of the secondary "stalk" eye powers.

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

As long as powers are defined with the pool as "multi's" (ie: variable level as opposed to fixed (AKA "ultra's")) and the pool has sufficient points there is no issue. Yes, ultra's are cheaper than multi's and can provide certain effects that a build concept requires at times, but they are not the only way to put things into a multipower. Review pages 316 thru 322 with special attention to the "buying slots" heading starting on page 317. (5th Ed Revised)

 

Page 358. Multiple-Power Attacks. Second paragraph from the bottom. Unless, I'm misreading this, I can't play the Beholder like that.

 

Put in the limited attack arcs limit of (1/4)

 

I'm trying to stay away from different firing Arcs. It makes the game a little clumsy to play. It's one of the reasons I tossed the damage-stops-eye-rays clause, it just caused too much of a headache to worry about. Of course, the Flash restraint makes perfect sense and is quite elegant. Works for me.

[clsage]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Page 358. Multiple-Power Attacks. Second paragraph from the bottom. Unless, I'm misreading this, I can't play the Beholder like that.

 

Yes. The Beholder as written that I referred to can only use one attack from its' MP per phase.....

 

Hmmmm. I have to say I am unclear on just what effect you are seeking ? Multiple attacks on the same target ? Or multiple attacks versus multiple targets ? According to the same page (358 5th Ed Rev.) multiple attacks can be used versus only one target in a phase (fourth paragraph, see Defender example).

 

-Carl-

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Hmmmm. I have to say I am unclear on just what effect you are seeking ? Multiple attacks on the same target ? Or multiple attacks versus multiple targets ? According to the same page (358 5th Ed Rev.) multiple attacks can be used versus only one target in a phase (fourth paragraph, see Defender example).

 

Let me expand on my idea.

 

I have four Power Frameworks, in this case, they are all fully loaded ultra-based multipower pools. Each of the multipower pools has the same slots.

 

Now in the process, I started to give each of sets a few modifiers to make it feel more like the canon Beholder. I came down to two conclusions:

 

1) Each ray set cannot be used during the same turn. If one eye is already being used it cannot switch to a different target.

2) The Beholder can only strike against a specific opponent once per phase. This means while he has four power pools, he cannot blast a single opponent with all four power pools. If he's fighting Doctor Destroyer alone, he might have some problems. But if he's fighting Doctor Destroyer with a few of his heavily armored minions, he will do well in the group.

 

Now, logically, I would add a Limitation that states, "Cannot Hit the Same Target as the rest of the power pools?". That's when I noticed the problem. Should the first power pool have this limitation? The later three sholuld obviously, it's a horrible disadvantage, but I should I tack it onto the first set. And if I do, should I reduce the bonus of the limitation?

 

Now the second question one is a bit trickier and one that is mostly a logic issue. If the Beholder has four power pools, should I reduce a slot each power pool? For example, I build the first power set like normal. On the second power set, I remove Disintegration Ray, allowing for a 9 point slot. Since the Beholder cannot use the same power twice in a phase, he could not use a power twice in a turn, so why should be pay for it twice? I continue down this line and remove a second power from the third power pool. This time the Entangle Ray. And eventually remove a third power from the fourth pool.

 

The question is simple: should I even do this? It's not really a rules question. It's legal by the rules, but more of a personal preference. Should I do this simply because I should, like many other rules in HERO?

[Maelstrom]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Personal preference is all about you.

[QueenOfItAll]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

As long as powers are defined with the pool as "multi's" (ie: variable level as opposed to fixed (AKA "ultra's")) and the pool has sufficient points there is no issue.

 

In fact, if there are sufficient Pool Points, one may have any number of "ultras" operating concurrently.

[QueenOfItAll]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

"snipped" to shorten and clarify.

 

I have four Power Frameworks, in this case, they are all fully loaded ultra-based multipower pools. Each of the multipower pools has the same slots.

 

1) Each ray set cannot be used during the same turn. If one eye is already being used it cannot switch to a different target.

2) The Beholder can only strike against a specific opponent once per phase.

 

Why have multiple pools? If a given power can be used but once, and the beast cannot hit any given target more than once, then how does this differ from a single Multipower?

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Why have multiple pools? If a given power can be used but once, and the beast cannot hit any given target more than once, then how does this differ from a single Multipower?

 

One cannot make multiple attacks out of any Framework. Page 358.

 

It's a shame that I can't do this as RAW, it would make things much easier. I guess it does keep the balance-game a little more even spread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

One cannot make multiple attacks out of any Framework. Page 358.

 

It's a shame that I can't do this as RAW, it would make things much easier. I guess it does keep the balance-game a little more even spread.

 

Read it again. The rule is that you can't use two powers from the same framework.

 

Which means, by the way, that Linked attack powers in a VPP don't work, since they rely on MPA to go off together.

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Read it again. The rule is that you can't use two powers from the same framework.

 

You are correct. By any I meant, any one framework.

 

This is why I have four seperate multipowers with the same power sets. It's still cheaper point-wise than buying all the powers individually.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

Perhaps this is an occasion for the Duplication/shared body effect, much like the hydra?

[Memona]

Re: Multitarget Abilities

 

You may be on to something there. Duplication. I'll try that out and get back to you.