Follower Vs Summon

[Sociotard]

Why does using disadvantage points (up to the campaing limit)offset the cost of buying Followers, Bases, and Vehicles, but does not for Duplicates, Multiforms and (most of all) Summons? I'm sure there's a good reason behind it, but I can't see it yet, so humor me.

It seems odd that if I want to buy a motorcycle I can slap on a few disadvantage points (okay, I don't know what disadvantages those would be, but I'm sure there are some) and reduce the cost of it a little. But, If I want the cool Tron motorcycle that just appears around me when I strike a pose, I can't. It just seems to me that the Disadvantage points are there because they make any character with them more interesting to play. If there's no advantage to using them, players feel no motivation to put them on their characters (Summoning a 500 point fire demon is fun, even if he has disadvantages. But if a Demon with no disadvantages cost's the same . . .)

One more question. Can I put the Transdimensional advantage on a follower to make it more Summon-like? I.E., I just call, and my follower appears out of nowhere.

[Blue]

But, If I want the cool Tron motorcycle that just appears around me when I strike a pose, I can't.

Sounds like a Running Special Effect.

 

As for the rest of your question I'll leave that for bigger brains.

[Col. Orange]

Re: Follower Vs Summon

 

Originally posted by Sociotard

Why does using disadvantage points (up to the campaing limit)offset the cost of buying Followers, Bases, and Vehicles, but does not for Duplicates, Multiforms and (most of all) Summons?

 

I'm pretty sure they do get points for their disadvantages. Seems logical anyway - why would you go to the trouble of thinking'em up otherwise.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Follower Vs Summon

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

I'm pretty sure they do get points for their disadvantages. Seems logical anyway - why would you go to the trouble of thinking'em up otherwise.

 

Sociotard is correct - the cost of a duplicate, multiform, etc. is not reduced by its disadvantages. ie if I have a 300 point multiform, or summon a 300 point creature, it costs 60 points regardless of whether it has no disadvantages, 100 points of disadvantages or 300 points of disadvantages. Adding another 50 points of disadvantages adds 10 points to the cost of the power, because it is now a 350 point character.

 

Multiforms (I think) and duplicates are specifically designed using the same base points as the base character, so if you want more than your own base points, you have to balance the form with disad's. The FAQ suggests that, if the base pays extra for a duplicate to have more than his own points, these extra points should not also require disadvantages.

 

The FAQ discusses disadvantages in these instances, generally like this (stolen from FAQ on Multiform):

 

"That being said, it’s important to remember that the primary purpose of Disadvantages is to define the character, make him more interesting, and give the GM plot hooks to work with — not to rack up extra Character Points. So, you should probably define some Disadvantages for the character, for 0 points, as part of the character development process. Similarly, as described in the HERO System Bestiary, many animals have certain Disadvantages that help define them as animals (e.g., the Limited Manipulation Physical Limitation), and you shouldn’t take an animal form that doesn’t have those Disadvantages without good reason."

 

Why the difference is a good question. Since the basic summon power summons a "generic" construct, if your summoned motorcycle is stolen or destroyed, you should be able to just Summon another. Your "real" motorcycle would be stolen/destroyed - you need to get it replaced/fixed before you get a new one. Plus, it stays where it was left rather than coming to you through an exertion of the Summon power.

 

As to whether the mnotorcycle is SFX for running, I prefer the Summon approach - that way, it behaves like a real vehicle (turn modes; subject to damage separately; etc.).

 

Same with a follower. Now this begs the question why "Summon a specific motorcycle which could be stolen or destroyed" is a +1 advantage, but there's a whole 'nother thread on that, so let's not reopen that issue.

 

Truth be told, I'd say some of the discrepancy relates to the fact that these powers aren't "mature". They haven't been around as long as, say, Energy Blast or HKA. They're also much more versatile, used for a lot more effects. As such, they haven't had the same years of experience to be fine tuned. Summon, in particular, changed radically between 4th and 5th Ed, and was only introduced prior to 4e in Fantasy Hero. Hey, under 4e rules, you had to pay 30 points at the start just to Summon a base human with NO character points! The ability to Summon a vehicle isn't even in the rules - it's in the FAQ (maybe some supplements), so field testing is pretty limited..

 

Summon, Multiform and Duplication (to a lesser extent) also permit you to to attract a character more powerful than you are. I don't believe your "follower" can have more points than you do. There are also other issues between the three - a Multiform is you, so it does what you want. A duplicate is you, and is around at the same time as the base, so it does what you want. A Summon can be forced to do what you want (base ego vs ego, or amicable disad).

 

A follower acts of its own volition - you exert a certain control over it, but your actions can cause it to become less loyal. Bases and vehciles can be broken/stolen. The small point break perhaps makes up, in part, for this difference between Powers and Perks.

[Sociotard]

It's all so clear now

 

Excellent post, Hugh. That makes sense. Followers have to pay extra for any points exceeding those of the main character, but disadvantages can offset their cost a little. Summoned beings can go as high as you please and retain the 1/5 cost, but their disadvantages are just there 'cuz the GM said so. My universe makes sense once more.

[Col. Orange]

Thanks Hugh, gave me a lot to think about.

Not sure I like how Summon works. I can see unscrupulous players choosing “efficient†SFX for the same basic character.

Actually that’s a bit cynical. I can see two players picking different SFX but similar powers and one getting an unfair advantage over the other.

 

E.g. Two Summoners. One summons battle daemons with 0pt disadvantages such as x2 damage from Holy SFX or Iron, various Psych Lims, maybe Hunted by Angels, etc. The other summons equally capable artificially intelligent battle robots (SFX is nanites building them real quick from dirt or rock or concrete of whatever) with NO disadvantages (high tech so EMP hardened electronics, advanced AI design so stable, flawless psyche…).

Both powers cost the same, but our occult friend gets penalised – hardly seems fair.

 

Letting Followers have disadvantage points and Summoned stuff not seems wrong too.

30pts of Follower gets you 150 base points and maybe 150 disadvantage points with the “Totally Loyal†Psych Lim (which is 0pt as it benefits the PC).

30pts of Devoted (+1 advantage) Summoned Follower gets you 75 base points and 0 disadvantage points. ¼ of the total points for the ability to Summon another Follower when your old one gets killed? Seems pricey when you consider the points for the regular Follower don’t disappear if the Follower dies.

Of course a regular Follower can get kidnapped or may not be around to untie our Hero (though depending on SFX (again) the Hero may not be able to use Summon all the time – “I’ve consecrated the ground, you’ll not be able to summon your hellish minions to help you now!â€).

 

The limits on some 1:5 powers/perks not being 1:5 for any points greater than those of the PC isn’t really a limit either – what GM in his right mind is going to let a player build a character with a power that basically generates more points than the character has anyway?

 

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Tron bikes can turn 90 degrees at full speed and, IIRC, take less than a second to "Load". Probably best to buy it as straight Running, maybe with Visible (brightly coloured, trail, noisy).

[caris]

Originally posted by Col. Orange

Letting Followers have disadvantage points and Summoned stuff not seems wrong too.

30pts of Follower gets you 150 base points and maybe 150 disadvantage points with the “Totally Loyal†Psych Lim (which is 0pt as it benefits the PC).

30pts of Devoted (+1 advantage) Summoned Follower gets you 75 base points and 0 disadvantage points. ¼ of the total points for the ability to Summon another Follower when your old one gets killed? Seems pricey when you consider the points for the regular Follower don’t disappear if the Follower dies.

Of course a regular Follower can get kidnapped or may not be around to untie our Hero (though depending on SFX (again) the Hero may not be able to use Summon all the time – “I’ve consecrated the ground, you’ll not be able to summon your hellish minions to help you now!â€).

 

The limits on some 1:5 powers/perks not being 1:5 for any points greater than those of the PC isn’t really a limit either – what GM in his right mind is going to let a player build a character with a power that basically generates more points than the character has anyway?

 

The fact that Summon can produce beings that are more powerful than the character for less cost is not the only place that Summon can get a price break over Follower. Summon is a power that costs END, and Follower is a Perk. Generally, Perks aren’t allowed to have Limitations or be put in Power Frameworks. Summon can do both.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Col. Orange

Thanks Hugh, gave me a lot to think about.

Not sure I like how Summon works. I can see unscrupulous players choosing “efficient†SFX for the same basic character.

Actually that’s a bit cynical. I can see two players picking different SFX but similar powers and one getting an unfair advantage over the other.

 

E.g. Two Summoners. One summons battle daemons with 0pt disadvantages such as x2 damage from Holy SFX or Iron, various Psych Lims, maybe Hunted by Angels, etc. The other summons equally capable artificially intelligent battle robots (SFX is nanites building them real quick from dirt or rock or concrete of whatever) with NO disadvantages (high tech so EMP hardened electronics, advanced AI design so stable, flawless psyche…).

Both powers cost the same, but our occult friend gets penalised – hardly seems fair.

 

This depends on what the GM will or won't allow. Just as easily, one can take a Follower who is designed as a well-rounded human being, and spends points on skills, abilities and stats (eg. comeliness) which will not be hugely combat effective, and the other builds a BattleDroid 100% directed at combat. Assuming equal base points and equal disad's, both pay the same costs but oe gets a more efficient construct than the other.

 

That's not to say I believe the current structure is perfect. I have "difficulties" with the Specific Person is always +1 rule. Again referring to our hypothetical two guys, one takes Summon Police Officer (generic). The other Summons a Specific Police Officer (+1 advantage) with similar/identical stats. If both are badly injured today in a skirmish, the guy who paid half the points gets a fresh one when he Summons tomorrow, and the guy who paid twice as much gets a badly wounded person. Refresh my memory - who had an advantage?

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

Letting Followers have disadvantage points and Summoned stuff not seems wrong too.

30pts of Follower gets you 150 base points and maybe 150 disadvantage points with the “Totally Loyal†Psych Lim (which is 0pt as it benefits the PC).

30pts of Devoted (+1 advantage) Summoned Follower gets you 75 base points and 0 disadvantage points. ¼ of the total points for the ability to Summon another Follower when your old one gets killed? Seems pricey when you consider the points for the regular Follower don’t disappear if the Follower dies.

Of course a regular Follower can get kidnapped or may not be around to untie our Hero (though depending on SFX (again) the Hero may not be able to use Summon all the time – “I’ve consecrated the ground, you’ll not be able to summon your hellish minions to help you now!â€).

 

Well, first off your Summon is slavishly loyal (eg. will commit suicide on command) and I don't see followers coming with the same loyalty. But even if we say the Summoned being has no Amicable at all (we have to control him by force) it costs more. Twice as much if we summon the follower you use as an example; 4 times as much if we make him a "specific person".

 

Let's ignore "Specific Person" for the moment on the assumption that you don't gain an advantage, so you don't pay an Advantage. But we'll make him "Friendly" for +1/4, so the Summon costs 2.5x the Follower. The Follower, as you say, may not always be around. If we send him out to do surveillance, he can't get back when combat starts.

 

Perhaps the character should have to pay a bonus for the follower to have a "Hopelessly Devoted" disadvantage.

 

As for the consecrated ground, if it's fairly common, your Summon should have a limitation ("NOt on consecrated Ground") reducing the cost somewhat. To some extent, this is a matter of SFX. If your follower is a demon, maybe it won't enter consecrated ground either. If it's not common enough to Limit the SUmmon, it's also not comon enough to be a disadvantage for the follower.

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

The limits on some 1:5 powers/perks not being 1:5 for any points greater than those of the PC isn’t really a limit either – what GM in his right mind is going to let a player build a character with a power that basically generates more points than the character has anyway?

 

Duplication or Multiform? Probably not me. I say probably because I hate to shut out a reasonable construct I may not have considered (eg. Multiform into a T Rex). Summon? Well, maybe. Sumoning a 400 point being costs you 8 END. Since he's not amicable at that level, you need an Ego vs Ego contest for control - and your roll is -8, so you'll have to persuade him somehow.

 

But I still believe that much of the problem lies in the lack of playtesting of these abilities, so their costs may not perfectly align. For example:

- why isn't Duplicate a form of Summon? All it does is Summon another you.

- why are Multiform and Duplicate generally worth the same amount? One puts two characters on the battlefield and one changes an existing character. Maybe it's reasonable - Multiform builds in a complete change to the character where Duplicsate requires a +1 advantage for this.

- what about the "twice as many for +5 points" rule? Consider Summoning 8 100 point creatures (no advantages) costs 35 points. Or I could Summon a 175 point creature which spends 75 points buying 128 duplicates which Cannot Recombine and each have 100 points (and only the base form has Duplication)

- why isn't Follower a variation on Summon, or Summon an advantage for Follower? They both serve the same purpose - give me a helper.

 

All of these merit a pretty close examination under the GM microscope to ensure they're reasonable. That includes both not overpowered for their cost, and not overpriced for their power.

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

Tron bikes can turn 90 degrees at full speed and, IIRC, take less than a second to "Load". Probably best to buy it as straight Running, maybe with Visible (brightly coloured, trail, noisy).

 

Maybe. I'm just not enamoured of vehicles not bought as Vehicles. It would be interesting to do the math - with the 5:1 break, but the need to buy off turn modes, etc., I wonder whether the cost would vary materially.

[Col. Orange]

This is why I love these boards - always a smart new way of looking at things.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This depends on what the GM will or won't allow. Just as easily, one can take a Follower who is designed as a well-rounded human being, and spends points on skills, abilities and stats (eg. comeliness) which will not be hugely combat effective, and the other builds a BattleDroid 100% directed at combat. Assuming equal base points and equal disad's, both pay the same costs but oe gets a more efficient construct than the other.

 

I see what your saying but both Follower types are equally usefull.

My friend wrote up the videogame character Stryder and bought Outrider as a fairly cheap but effective combat machine.

I've got a Punisher/Crow type character with a Crow called Loki as his Follower. Loki's mean old bird who stays well out of combat, but acts as a spy and spiritual guide for my PC.

Both of us have enjoyed and benefited equally from having a Follower, even though they're designed for completely different things.

 

That's not to say I believe the current structure is perfect. I have "difficulties" with the Specific Person is always +1 rule. Again referring to our hypothetical two guys, one takes Summon Police Officer (generic). The other Summons a Specific Police Officer (+1 advantage) with similar/identical stats. If both are badly injured today in a skirmish, the guy who paid half the points gets a fresh one when he Summons tomorrow, and the guy who paid twice as much gets a badly wounded person. Refresh my memory - who had an advantage?

 

Totally agree. But... Specific beings know specific things. I want to summon Lt. Briggs of Homicide 'cause I know he's been assigned the case my Vigilante is also investigating I need him specificly, not random Cop #1.

 

Well, first off your Summon is slavishly loyal (eg. will commit suicide on command) and I don't see followers coming with the same loyalty.

 

As can your Follower be - for free. The suggestion you made to have this cost points makes more and more sense - maybe an Advantage like Summon, maybe having Follower as an Independent Summoned thing that "Arrives under it's own power".

 

Duplication or Multiform? Probably not me. I say probably because I hate to shut out a reasonable construct I may not have considered (eg. Multiform into a T Rex).

 

Yeah, but should the T-Rex be built on more points than any member of the rest of the team? Seems a little unfair - One guy makes a Detective, another a Brick the third makes a Multiform Detective/Brick...

 

Summon? Well, maybe. Sumoning a 400 point being costs you 8 END. Since he's not amicable at that level, you need an Ego vs Ego contest for control - and your roll is -8, so you'll have to persuade him somehow.

 

But I still believe that much of the problem lies in the lack of playtesting of these abilities, so their costs may not perfectly align. For example:

- why isn't Duplicate a form of Summon? All it does is Summon another you.

- why are Multiform and Duplicate generally worth the same amount? One puts two characters on the battlefield and one changes an existing character. Maybe it's reasonable - Multiform builds in a complete change to the character where Duplicsate requires a +1 advantage for this.

- what about the "twice as many for +5 points" rule? Consider Summoning 8 100 point creatures (no advantages) costs 35 points. Or I could Summon a 175 point creature which spends 75 points buying 128 duplicates which Cannot Recombine and each have 100 points (and only the base form has Duplication)

- why isn't Follower a variation on Summon, or Summon an advantage for Follower? They both serve the same purpose - give me a helper.

 

All of these merit a pretty close examination under the GM microscope to ensure they're reasonable. That includes both not overpowered for their cost, and not overpriced for their power.

 

Valid points all. I guess the general rule is the same for any other power - GM has to tread carefully and not let anything too dangerous through.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Col. Orange

This is why I love these boards - always a smart new way of looking at things.

I see what your saying but both Follower types are equally usefull.

My friend wrote up the videogame character Stryder and bought Outrider as a fairly cheap but effective combat machine.

I've got a Punisher/Crow type character with a Crow called Loki as his Follower. Loki's mean old bird who stays well out of combat, but acts as a spy and spiritual guide for my PC.

Both of us have enjoyed and benefited equally from having a Follower, even though they're designed for completely different things.

 

I'm not referring to what they're designed for. I'm referring to points spent on things they aren't designed for. Your examples are a bit tough to work with, as they aren't "well rounded humans". But perhaps a crow might have bonus perception rolls, only to find shiny things. PS: Worm Hunter for a bird doesn't make it a better scout, only a better bird. What about some extra COM ("Pretty Bird!") None of these make it a better scout (ie more useful to you) but they all cost points.

 

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

Totally agree. But... Specific beings know specific things. I want to summon Lt. Briggs of Homicide 'cause I know he's been assigned the case my Vigilante is also investigating I need him specificly, not random Cop #1.

 

And if the +1 advantage meant "Summon any cop within your point total, specific or random", I would agree this is a +1 advantage. But it doesn't. It means "Summon only Lt. Briggs of Homicide and lose the ability to summon any other cop". Steve has confirmed this. So I'd better know up front which cop will be assigned to cases of interest (and which one will die in the first adventure) or my power loses its utility very quickly.

 

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

As can your Follower be - for free. The suggestion you made to have this cost points makes more and more sense - maybe an Advantage like Summon, maybe having Follower as an Independent Summoned thing that "Arrives under it's own power".

 

A slavishly loyal follower is far from automatic. The rules allow for followers who would generally be slavishly loyal. As a GM, however, I'm going to consider that one pretty carefully. If the creature is alive, it has its own quirks, fears and survival instinct. If not (a zombie, golem or robot, perhaps), I will likely rule that the character is slavishly loyal, but lacks any independent thought process. It does whatever you say, but you must say it. So, if the flames are approaching your unconscious character, Lassie might well drag you to safety. Your robot just stands there, impassively, waiting for orders. You cold buy him an on board computer and automatic programs - but that costs more points. Nothing comes free.

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

Yeah, but should the T-Rex be built on more points than any member of the rest of the team? Seems a little unfair - One guy makes a Detective, another a Brick the third makes a Multiform Detective/Brick...

 

This is the tough call, but the rules are pretty clear the ability to exceed the point limit is intended specifically because concepts like T Rex Man are impossible without it. While he's got more raw power, he must also have more drawbacks - you need to balance the form using only your base points so it needs more disads.

 

Would I allow a 400 point T Rex as a form? Maybe. Would I allow a Multiform that steps on the toes of other players' specialties? Probably not. Would I allow a VPP Multiform only to pick up the powers and drawbacks of one or more other characters (ie a true mimic pool)? Possibly.

 

Originally posted by Col. Orange

Valid points all. I guess the general rule is the same for any other power - GM has to tread carefully and not let anything too dangerous through.

 

It's always a judgement call. I find Mutants and Masterminds had an interesting paragraph. They discuss "Saying Yes to players". Noting that a lot of the book (like a lot of Hero) discusses saying No, they also talk about saying Yes whereever possible. After all, you don't want a bunch of frustrated players, you want players with characters that fit their concept. So, no, a 30d6 EB is not allowed. But maybe a 400 point T Rex form is - if I can conclude it won't be unbalancing

[zornwil]

All I can really say is that I let disad points reduce the amount the player has to pay for summons, followers, multiform, etc., and have never had a problem with it. Obviously YMMV, but just reporting in case the original posters or others are wondering who it's worked out in real life.