Failure To Stop Drill

[Toadmaster]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Honestly' date=' isn't the head-shot slower, aimed, and deliberate? Sounds like a double tap, then an aimed headshot the next phase.[/quote']

 

No, its not. When I got out of highschool I looked into law enforcement and took several classes. In the firearms portion we did these drills but they were called Mozambique drills. We had 2 seconds to complete it, and with a little practice 2 seconds was plenty of time. The idea is to stop an armed opponent at close range, if they don't stop with 2 in the chest you want to stop them right now before they shoot you or hack you into pieces. Since you are already on target it just takes a fraction of a second to shift your aiming point, it flowed pretty much as 3 shots.

 

 

We regularly fired 6 shots in 2-3 seconds, and that provided plenty of aiming time. Obviously if I paid attention to this I'd be like speed 6 in HERO.

 

 

This is the kind of thing I was refering to when I said you fix one problem you make 3 more. You come up with a workable FTS and you end up with an expensive "power" that should be available to any trained gunman, you highlight just how slow people act in HERO and you head down the path of what other "special powers" do we need to model.

 

 

I look at it kind of like using a microscope on a photo, at 1 foot you have a great photo, but under magnification you see all the dots.

 

 

At some point it just makes sense to move to something like Phoenix Command if you want all the fine detail, HERO works better with a certain amount of fuzzyness.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

I could see the usefulness of developing a pistol based Ranged Martial Art that had maneuvers that only dealt with different OCV, Range and Penalty bonuses. Might even be a cleaner method to present this type of 'standard drill' on character sheets.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

I could see the usefulness of developing a pistol based Ranged Martial Art that had maneuvers that only dealt with different OCV' date=' Range and Penalty bonuses. Might even be a cleaner method to present this type of 'standard drill' on character sheets.[/quote']

 

I was thinking that as I typed. Using martial arts for weapons training would certainly be cooler than just buying skill levels.

 

In theory you could have civilian firearms training focused on target shooting and or hunting, civilian combat training (police style training), military training (adds in some AF skills) and uber bad a** combat training, CQB, precision sharp shooting etc, for SWAT, SEALs, SAS and similar uber bad a** troops.

 

 

Could really have some fun for sword users, building a character like Inigo Montoya could have a dozen or so sword based martial arts.

 

Of course that does start to enter into the realm of possible insanity.

[OrraBuss]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Do you really want to shoot someone with a drill?

 

 

 

 

 

[bschrempp]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Real life...

 

 

• Police see perp and give command to stop or I will shoot, holds action.
  
• Perp moves forward, use held action to shoot, 2 to the chest, next phase one to the head. (or auto fire three in one phase with two to the chest and one to the head)
  

When a police office shoots his service revolver, 90% of the time it is at 7 feet or less to the target. The perp should be right on your PC when he shoots.

 

 

There is another move, I do not know what it is called. If the perp is out in front of you, and you gun is still in the holster.

 

• The perp starts to move at you.
  
• You draw and start to fire as soon as the gun clears the holster
  
• The first and second shoots hit the ground between you and the perp.
  
• The third shot is low in the torso
  
• The forth is high in the torso
  
• The fifth is in the head.
  

I work with a cop and heard a story about a southern California cop just back from a FBI training course where he learned this. He and his partner were responding to a call at a house. They were not expecting trouble. As the guy opens the door he has a shot gun. The partner starts to shoot and hits the guy a number of times in the chest, with little results. The guy just back from training dose the above described move, the fifth shot stopped the guy, he was wearing some kind of a vest or body armor. The move save him and his partner.

 

 

 

Bob

[ghost-angel]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

One of the biggest issues of "simulating real life" with HERO is that in Hero the base distance is a 2m Hex.

 

In real life the majority of firefights take place inside what we would call 2 Hexes, or less. Often times they target is less than 1 Hex away. If you move to 1 Hex = 1 Meter you can get "more realistic" firefights. Don't forget crappy lighting conditions.

[OrraBuss]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

There is another move, I do not know what it is called. If the perp is out in front of you, and you gun is still in the holster.

• The perp starts to move at you.
  
• You draw and start to fire as soon as the gun clears the holster
  
• The first and second shoots hit the ground between you and the perp.

Why shoot the ground?

The third shot is low in the torso
The forth is high in the torso
The fifth is in the head.

Truth is this is Blazing Away plus Fast Draw. Hitting anything is dumb luck.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Why shoot the ground?

 

I imagine the idea is to use the gun's recoil to help bring the gun into line with vital targets (chest/head) faster, using the 'kick' in your favor.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Real life...

 

 

There is another move, I do not know what it is called. If the perp is out in front of you, and you gun is still in the holster.

 

• The perp starts to move at you.
  
• You draw and start to fire as soon as the gun clears the holster
  
• The first and second shoots hit the ground between you and the perp.
  
• The third shot is low in the torso
  
• The forth is high in the torso
  
• The fifth is in the head.
  

 

I have a name for this: lawsuit. Seriously, I would question the competence of any current member of any U.S. police agency that would tell you this is a "trained" manuever. We own every shot we take, and believe it or not, bullets will bounce. If you don't have a target that you are willing to shoot in front of your muzzle, you *don't* pull the trigger. We are trained different stances, depending on whether someone is 4 feet away, or 25 yards (the general limit for police training with a handgun), but we aren't trained to shoot wildly, or shoot the ground. Note, I am *not* saying that this type of manuever doesn't happen; but it does not realistically represent police training.

 

For the failure drill itself, with due respect to Toadmaster, the double tap is sights-optional; the head shot is with your sights. The reason for this, as already suggested, is that the head is a more difficult target to hit. Toadmaster may be a natural shot, or may be very quick on the draw, but my guess is that he or she was picking up her or his sights for the final shot. A two-three second time frame is indeed accurate, as the first two shots (the double tap) are done very quickly and usually result in a fairly tight grouping despite the recoil.

 

If you really want to model real life, the double tap should be an autofire or rapid shot (held action or not), and the head shot done in a separate phase, possibly with a few PSLs to reflect the use of iron sights. Just remember to call out "RED" when you need to do a combat reload.

 

And for the curious, police shoot not to "kill" but to "stop", because our intent is not to end your life but to end whatever threat you pose. Unfortunately, the areas of the body that provide the desired result, i.e., the quickest and most certain ways of ending a threat, are also the areas that are the most likely to result in death. Ah, anatomy.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

 

There is another move, I do not know what it is called. If the perp is out in front of you, and you gun is still in the holster.

 

• The perp starts to move at you.
  
• You draw and start to fire as soon as the gun clears the holster
  
• The first and second shoots hit the ground between you and the perp.
  
• The third shot is low in the torso
  
• The forth is high in the torso
  
• The fifth is in the head.
  

 

Bob

 

That sounds more like walking your fire which can be done with automatic weapons. That would be a battlefield situation, not law enforcement, and would usually be done with a machinegun.

 

That was basically how the hull machinegun in WW2 tanks aimed. The sights were not that great so they would aim low to see where they were hitting with the burst then walk it onto the target, of course they had several hundred rounds of ammunition and any stray rounds were most likely going to hit another enemy soldier or pass merrily on its way relatively harmlessly. That would not be the preferred method to clear soldiers out of a town full of friendlies.

[Vondy]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Real life...

 

 

• Police see perp and give command to stop or I will shoot, holds action.
  
• Perp moves forward, use held action to shoot, 2 to the chest, next phase one to the head. (or auto fire three in one phase with two to the chest and one to the head)
  

When a police office shoots his service revolver, 90% of the time it is at 7 feet or less to the target. The perp should be right on your PC when he shoots.

 

Mechanically the cop should be using the cover maneuver to allow himself the first shot.

 

 

There is another move, I do not know what it is called. If the perp is out in front of you, and you gun is still in the holster.

 

• The perp starts to move at you.
  
• You draw and start to fire as soon as the gun clears the holster
  
• The first and second shoots hit the ground between you and the perp.
  
• The third shot is low in the torso
  
• The forth is high in the torso
  
• The fifth is in the head.
  

I work with a cop and heard a story about a southern California cop just back from a FBI training course where he learned this. He and his partner were responding to a call at a house. They were not expecting trouble. As the guy opens the door he has a shot gun. The partner starts to shoot and hits the guy a number of times in the chest, with little results. The guy just back from training dose the above described move, the fifth shot stopped the guy, he was wearing some kind of a vest or body armor. The move save him and his partner.

 

Bob

 

From an FBI training course? Really? Was it SWAT specific, because in terms of normative law enforcement situations its completely out of line. Soldiers, yes. Out of control raid situations... maybe. But generally speaking its counter to the goals of a law enforcement officer in a shoot situation.

 

First, firing at the ground potentially creates ricochets, which is a huge safety and liability issue. Cops don't have acceptable collateral damage. Second, its wasted time and ammunition. In firefights tenths of a second matter and few cops are using fully automatic weapons. You just wasted several tenths of a second getting on target if you do this. Nor does it require much to adjust to the head after you put your first 2-3 center mass where they belong.

 

This runs counter to the training I received and, IMO, borders on the idiotic. We were even trained to check the background because bullets don't always stop in targets when you hit, let alone when you intentionally miss (?). The comment "we own every shot," is dead on.