Area of Effect Defense

[Jachra]

A spell that provides magical defenses to party members.

Effect: Provides improved defense to the members. The party members should be able to attack, still, so Force Wall is right out.

 

So far, I'm thinking Force Field, Usable as Attack (so she's the one who pays the END), Multiple Targets (and throw in Ranged so the priest doesn't have to touch everyone in the party.)

Would Area of Effect: Selective be more appropriate, or is it simply a matter of choice?

[schir1964]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

I believe one of the Digital Hero articles actually gives a House Rule example of how to apply Area Of Effect to Force Field. You might find that useful.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Psylint]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

An easier, Rules as written way:

 

Everyone in the team takes Armor.

 

The Protector takes "Super Duper Area of Effect Defensiveness"

 

xd6 Aid Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

 

or for the constantly maintained and instantly dropped shield of defensiveness

 

xd6 Succor Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

 

Peace

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

A spell that provides magical defenses to party members.

Effect: Provides improved defense to the members. The party members should be able to attack, still, so Force Wall is right out.

 

You could use Aid. I would allow PD and ED to be aided, or even resistant versions to add to what almost all characters have.

 

You could use advantaged Aid to be able to add to all kinds of defences.

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

An easier, Rules as written way:

 

Everyone in the team takes Armor.

 

The Protector takes "Super Duper Area of Effect Defensiveness"

 

xd6 Aid Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

 

or for the constantly maintained and instantly dropped shield of defensiveness

 

xd6 Succor Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

 

Peace

 

Whoops - should scan thw WHOLE thread before responding!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

A spell that provides magical defenses to party members.

Effect: Provides improved defense to the members. The party members should be able to attack, still, so Force Wall is right out.

 

So far, I'm thinking Force Field, Usable as Attack (so she's the one who pays the END), Multiple Targets (and throw in Ranged so the priest doesn't have to touch everyone in the party.)

Would Area of Effect: Selective be more appropriate, or is it simply a matter of choice?

 

If using a VPP based spell system here's a simple way to do it:

 

36 Friends don't let friends fight without a force field...: Force Field (10 PD/10 ED) (Protect Carried Items), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4), Selective (+1/4) (90 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4), IIF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) [1 cc]

Notes: The AOE Radius just defines the range that allies need to be within when the effect begins. The range is Line Of Site after that.

[Jachra]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

*smack forehead*

Aid! Of course, what an idiot. Except Aid only increases existing powers and I'm technically not permitting armor as a personal power (at the moment. If I do later, it's as a solely cinematic thing that I wouldn't permit to be Aided except by equally cinematic excuses.)

 

Usable Simultaneously is an idea, except then everyone needs to pay the END for its usage... unless I permit it to be 'usable per day' instead of END and so available for a Charge.

 

Also, when Usable by Attack says it can be 'attached' to a target, does that obviate the Line of Sight issue or do I still need to apply the other various Advantage hurdles I would for the other UOOs?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

*smack forehead*

Aid! Of course, what an idiot. Except Aid only increases existing powers and I'm technically not permitting armor as a personal power (at the moment. If I do later, it's as a solely cinematic thing that I wouldn't permit to be Aided except by equally cinematic excuses.)

 

Usable Simultaneously is an idea, except then everyone needs to pay the END for its usage... unless I permit it to be 'usable per day' instead of END and so available for a Charge.

 

Also, when Usable by Attack says it can be 'attached' to a target, does that obviate the Line of Sight issue or do I still need to apply the other various Advantage hurdles I would for the other UOOs?

 

Continuous Charges remove END from the equation. They also have 'uncontrolled' like effects so they might negate the Line of Sight requirements as well.

 

One thing to remember when using Usable As Attack vs. Simultaneously is that the defenses provided by the UAA version can't be used by the caster whereas the defenses with USim can.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Force Field, usable by others works. Buy area effect if you want them to get it in an area, or UBO if you want them to run about with it independently.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Force Field' date=' usable by others works. Buy area effect if you want them to get it in an area, or UBO if you want them to run about with it independently.[/quote']

 

 

Actually,

adding AOE to a Self Only ability like Force Field does nothing without adding some form of UBO first. All the AOE (or Usable At Range) does then is remove the 'touch' requirement to begin the UBO effect. Once an ability is granted via UBO its range is Line of Sight (even without AOE or Usable At Range)

[mmshah]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Aid to ED/PD/Armor however would be subject to the 1/2 effect that adjustment powers have on defensive abilites. They also fade at the full rate which is also bad.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Right, sorry I left that off: usable by one other with area effect will do the trick: anyone within the area gets the protection. You can actually remove the LOS effect from usable by others, it just costs a bit more.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Try some kind of triggered effect. War Man has a Missile Deflection version:

 

War Man

 

Look at the Actuated Energy Grid Interdiction System.

 

This works specifically vs ranged type attacks, not melee, but a version based on Dispel or Suppress or some other base effect could be built.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

I think suppress goes off after the attack if you buy it as a defense, doesn't it? You can house rule that to work differently as I think it should.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Actually,

adding AOE to a Self Only ability like Force Field does nothing without adding some form of UBO first. All the AOE (or Usable At Range) does then is remove the 'touch' requirement to begin the UBO effect. Once an ability is granted via UBO its range is Line of Sight (even without AOE or Usable At Range)

I prefer Force Field AOE Selective. IMO, saying "AOE does nothing without ..." fails Tesuji's "stupid test". A +1 Advantage (+1.25 in this case) should do quite a bit. Of course, it means that there's a maximum distance that your allies can go from you in order to be affected. And you have to buy Extended Area to increase this. Or you could buy Range, but then you might not be able to cover yourself at the same time.

 

So, just to try out some random numbers:

 

10 PD/10 ED FF (Base = 20 Points), AOE, Selective = 45 Active Points, costs 4 END/phase, but only has a 2" radius. That's probably not good enough, so let's add some Extended Area:

 

x8 Extended Area (+3/4) = 60 Active points, 16" radius around the guy generating the power, and he pays 6 END per phase. An ally who moves more than 16" away won't be protected. Enemies within 16" aren't covered, due to the Selective, though an enemy could always pose as a friend.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

I prefer Force Field AOE Selective. IMO, saying "AOE does nothing without ..." fails Tesuji's "stupid test".

 

Last time I checked the book cover it showed that Steve Long wrote the rules, not Tesuji.

 

According to RAW (rules as written) a self only power will only affect the owner unless some form of Usable By Other is applied PERIOD.

 

Anything else is a House Rule.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Last time I checked the book cover it showed that Steve Long wrote the rules, not Tesuji.

 

According to RAW (rules as written) a self only power will only affect the owner unless some form of Usable By Other is applied PERIOD.

 

Anything else is a House Rule.

So? Just because something stupid is a rule doesn't mean you have to follow it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

When discussing the best way to do something we tend to try to use the RAW. This is not because we have to, but because if everyone posted all of their responses based entirely on a myriad of house rules then nothing would ever get accurately communicated. Plus, stating a rule is "stupid" is fine if it's an opinion, not so much if it's stated as a fact to support an argument. It borders on argumentative without supporting your take on the matter.

 

Edit: Almost forgot, most rules, even the ones you consider "stupid", generally have a reason. Most often the reason is either for game balance, or simply following the idea of reasoning from effect, the core principle of the Hero System. If you take a look I’m sure you’ll find a logical, “non-stupid” reason for the rule, even if you disagree with it.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Since usable by one other (all that's required with AE to cover everyone in the area) and selective costs the same, you've not changed the active cost any with either build. Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone, and allows you to not protect people you choose to in the area.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Since usable by one other (all that's required with AE to cover everyone in the area) and selective costs the same' date=' you've not changed the active cost any with either build. Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone, and allows you to not protect people you choose to in the area.[/quote']

 

No.

 

AOE is only a variant to adding Ranged to an otherwise Self Only ability. They only remove the normal initial touch requirement from abilities with UBO (They have no effect on the continuing Line Of Sight requirement). The LEVELof Usable By Others* purchased is the sole factor that determines the number of targets that can benefit from the base Self Only power.

 

*(if usable by more than one other it's actually becomes Usable Simultaneously)

 

A GM can certainly rule otherwise but that's the base rule.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Since usable by one other (all that's required with AE to cover everyone in the area) and selective costs the same' date=' you've not changed the active cost any with either build. Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone, and allows you to not protect people you choose to in the area.[/quote']

 

How does "Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone"? I know you have to make an attack role for each character if an AoE is selective, but generally helpful abilities (specifically Adjustment Power, but this is acting like an Adjustment Power, so if a GM allowed it at all, he would probably count it as such) are assumed to hit "willing targets". Even requiring a roll for each person you want to cover doesn't make the build any more legal. IMO it would still be more potent than UOO.

 

 

Let’s try this with Force Field using AoE, assuming no AP or DC caps.

 

 

180 Everyone’s Protected: FF-30PD/30ED, (60 AP), AoE Radius, (+1), Selective (+1/2), Double Radius (+1/4), Reduced END, Only to Activate (+1/4). (This would give you a 12” radius.)

Built this way, everyone on your team and any innocent NPCs within over a quarter of a football field away from you have all the rDEF they will probably ever need. Using Standard Effect it would take 10d6K to match the defense. That’s 30 Damage Classes of Killing Damage. I would see this as a potential game breaker.

 

Let’s assume a 60AP cap.

 

60 Everyone’s Slightly Less Protected: FF-10PD/10ED (20AP), plus same advantages listed above (+3) (Your radius is only 4” now, but still…)

3D6K with Standard Effect still couldn’t touch anyone under your protection. 4D6K with SE would only beat it by 2, and 4D6K would hit the 60 AP limit with no Advantages. Still seems potentially game breaking for the fairly low cost of providing your entire team with all the rDEF they could possibly need with the only condition being they stay within 26 feet of Force Field Guy.

 

Now, let’s try it with the Rules As Written using the Usable By Others Advantage.

 

180 Everyone’s (Debatably) Legally Protected: FF-30PD/30ED, (60 AP), Usable Simultaneously (+1/2)(This would usually only allow you to use it on yourself and one other person, or on two people other than yourself with GM permission), x8 Targets (+3/4) (Now you can use it on 16 people, including yourself), Range, Line of Sight (+1/2) (All recipients need to be within Line of Sight to receive power, and must remain within LOS to continue to use it), Reduced END, Only to Activate (+1/4) (everyone using the FF must pay the END to use it).

 

Still almost certainly game breaking, but still much more limited than using AoE. Only 16 people can receive the power, they must be willing to receive it (it’s UOO Simultaneous, Not Usable as Attack), they must spend their own END on it, and they must stay within his LOS (presumably in front of him).

 

60 Everyone’s Slightly Less (Debatably) Legally Protected: FF-10PD/10ED (20AP), Plus same advantages as above (+3)

While these two builds are closer to being book legal, most GM’s with a lick of sense would probably consider them over powered and potentially game breaking, unless they fit the feel and abilities of a very specific campaign. There is a reason why Usable On Others has a “Stop Sign” in the book, and there’s a reason why Force Fields are specifically mentioned in the “The Dangers Of Usable On Others” section of the rules. It’s a game breaker, and using AoE instead of UOO makes it, IMO, even more so. It’s something most GMs simply would not allow. If you would, great, Hero is flexible that way. You’re allowed to change anything you want. But if you ever game with anyone else, things like that probably won’t fly. They probably won’t even flutter around limply.

 

In the case of the OP, since it will be limited by being a spell in a specific setting it may not be as horribly game breaking. Protective spells are common in fantasy games and the fantasy genre in general, but if you have 60 point VPP either the AoE or UOO versions would make the party all but invincible against common, non-magical, melee weapons (Great Sword, Battle Axe, and Spear are all 2d6k +STR above Required STR Min). Aid or Succor to PD and ED (or maybe DCV, is that legal?) or even a modified Transform, would seem to be much more “book legal”. While you don’t have to use “book legal” builds, they are more likely to get GM approval, they tend to be more balancing, and generally transfer from genre to genre, or to other groups of gamers much more easily.

 

P.S. What has been stated is mostly opinion, but I have attempted to logically explain that opinion and support it with examples. It seems to me such rampant amounts of “group defense” are exactly why the effect of Adjustment Powers to any sort of defense is halved. It is unbalancing and potentially game breaking. Of course players can build anything their GMs will let them get away with, and GMs can change the rules however they would like. Versatility and customization are the biggest selling point of the Hero System for a lot of people; however, it’s always wise to think through the reasons for certain rules before haphazardly labeling them as “stupid”. At the very least, consider the impact on your own game, before you cause a problem that you’ll have to go back and fix later, when the RAW would’ve accounted for the issue all along.

 

EDIT: For the record, I haven't double checked my math. I did this at work, not using HD. If anything is off, I'll adjust it later, but I think the examples pretty much make my point, even if I'm off by a couple of points...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Great synopses bigbywolfe.

 

A very minor quibble though. The Advantage Line Of Sight is not necessary. It's actually a built in limitation of UBO.

 

According to Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One page 273

 

BASIC RULES

The following basic rules apply to all Usable On Others powers:

 

Range; Line Of Sight

All Usable On Others (“UOO”) powers have No Range. This means a character has to be within HTH Combat range of (or touch) a person he wants to grant a power to. However, once he does so, the recipient can use the power without having to remain in contact with the caster; the caster just has to maintain Line Of Sight to him. A character can buy a UOO power with the Advantage Ranged, giving that power the standard Range of 5” x Active Points, but in that case he has to have Line Of Sight to a recipient to grant a power to him. (A character can substitute the Range Based On STR or Limited Range Advantages for Ranged, if he prefers.)

There is also another important difference between buying Ranged or AOE for a UBO ability.

 

• Adding Ranged means that each recipient still has to be granted the ability separately. If the recipients are not grouped together this can make the act of granting the ability to everyone take additional time.
  
• Adding AOE allows everyone in the affected area (up to the maximum # of targets allowed by UBO) to get the ability at the same time.
  

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

"A character can buy a UOO power with the Advantage Ranged, giving that power the standard Range of 5” x Active Points, but in that case he has to have Line Of Sight to a recipient to grant a power to him. (A character can substitute the Range Based On STR or Limited Range Advantages for Ranged, if he prefers.)"

 

I was just trying to emphasize that LOS was still required even with Range being bought...

 

• Adding Ranged means that each recipient still has to be granted the ability separately. If the recipients are not grouped together this can make the act of granting the ability to everyone take additional time.

• Adding AOE allows everyone in the affected area (up to the maximum # of targets allowed by UBO) to get the ability at the same time.

 

You're right, I totally missed that point. That makes AOE even more obviously broken.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

How does "Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone"? I know you have to make an attack role for each character if an AoE is selective

 

Thanks for answering your own question and saving me the time.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Area of Effect Defense

 

Thanks for answering your own question and saving me the time.

 

Thanks for ignoring the rest of the comment. I guess I find it funny trying to apply strict rules on an broken build that already ignores the RAW. Either way, it is still more effective, and hence more unbalancing, than trying to use the UOO method on everyone involved.