Calm the Storm

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

The Until Superpowers Database covers Weather Control as a power on on p. 251. It even gives an example of canceling a storm. It's written up as a Mega area CE using the Varying Combat Effects and Multiple COmbat Effects adders and a couple of minor rulings about how to use it.

I don't know why I didn't think of this myself (and even less why nobody else did before you). Good call. I'll check that as soon as I get to my book.

[CTaylor]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Seems like the combat adders and such are needless, all you need is just a big effect to change the weather from stormy to calm. All those combat effects are from the storm, not the calm and you're reversing them. It should be fairly cheap: megascale with a bunch of levels of lasting to make it a weather trend instead of a freak calming period.

[薔薇語]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

The thing I most prefer when it comes to suppress as opposed to CE is the need to exactly mimic the storm. If you are building a CE to counter the effects of the storm, you need to have the same amount of effect built in. So if the storm is blowing at 60mph (IE the equivalent minuses) and your CE can only mimic 50mph then even after you finish with you power you are still left with a strong wind.

 

Suppress on the other hand doesn't have such a worry. I don't have to build the suppress to mimic all the conditions of of any individual storm. If I build a CE to counter a strong tropical storm, what do I come across a Blizzard with sever temp changes? I have to have built the CE to be prepared for any of the possible weather conditions that I might come across. With Suppress I don't have to worry about such things.

 

That is why I prefer Suppress to CE.

 

La Rose

[CTaylor]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Why do you need the strength to negate the winds? They area RESULT of the storm, you just need a power that makes the weather stop being a storm, an the results vanish. You don't have to make a power to stop raining when you stop a rainstorm, all you need is to stop the rainstorm. The weather will fix its self.

[薔薇語]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Why do you need the strength to negate the winds? They area RESULT of the storm' date=' you just need a power that makes the weather stop being a storm, an the results vanish. You don't have to make a power to stop raining when you stop a rainstorm, all you need is to stop the rainstorm. The weather will fix its self.[/quote']

 

 

The storm is the special effect of various Perception penalties and OCV penalties, etc. So I was talking about the wind in the sense of what it is cuased by. IE, the differance between a 60 and 50mph wind is probably 1OCV penalty. But if a 60mph storm is a minus 3 ocv and you can only cancel 2 ocv worth then you will still have a portion of the storm there no mater what.

 

Working from the example eightiesboi provided on page one:

Temperature: Let's bop it down one category, although we could probably leave this off due to wind chill. We get this free for the base 5 points.

Rain: Driving, pounding rain. Since "pea soup fog" is listed as a -3 PER for sight and hearing, I think we can reasonaly call this the equivalent, especially since normal rain is a -1 to PER rolls. This will cost us a total of 18 points, 9 for each sense group.

Wind: Wind speeds of 75 mph (yes, we could go higher). That equals a -3 to hearing and a -3 to OCV. This comes to 24 points, 9 for the loss to hearing PER, and 15 for the OCV.

 

If I build the exact CE to counter that, what happens when I come across a white out blizzard? The blizzard will also have -2 or -3 templ levels and probably higher penalties to sight. So if I use the CE power built to counter the Rain storm on the Blizzard I will still have sever cold temp and maybe a couple minuses to sight still left over. That doesn't make sense to me. But with a Suppress you avoid the entire issue of varrying environments and only have to worry about the strength (in points) of the storm. The stronger the storm (light fog or rain to Hurricane) the longer it takes to stop it. That makes sense to me.

 

Did I clear it up any?

 

La Rose

 

Also another advantage of Suppress to CE is that if another power is causing bad weather as its SpF/X but isn't CE then suppress still works just as well against it. This si assuming the SpF/X of the PC's paticular power are compadable to this end. But if you had a power thats effect was a strong wind blowing through to prevent ranged weapons from getting to you (a version of Missle Deflect) and I the great master of the elements wanted to cancel it like I do other such conditions. I wouldn't have to worry about having a power for Weather nuetralizing, the CE, and a dispell / drain / suppress in wait for you. Rather my Suppress weather conditions is all I would need for both situations. One power that can mimic one special effect in two ways. And that one power doesn't involve any lengthy analysis for how it should work (ie comparing your CE to the wind wall guy), it only needs you to calculate active points and move from there.

 

Again, I think adjustment powers are the way to go and in paticular a Suppress.

 

La Rose.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

re: CE vs. various Adjustment powers

 

A Weather/Wind based CE should always have 'some' effect (Storm vs. Thor, Red Tornado vs. Wind Dragon, etc...). It just comes down to which CE is more powerful.

 

A Dispel/Suppress/Drain construct could certainly be Weather/Wind based but even if it wasn't it might instead target the source of the un-natural Weather/Wind effect. That source could be a technological device or a character with powerful magic (a Magic VPP). If the Adjustment can target that particular sfx source then it could shut down the storm without having any direct Weather/Wind affecting capabilities.

 

It's all about what you want to do.

[CTaylor]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

The storm is the special effect of various Perception penalties and OCV penalties, etc.

 

I understand that's what you are insisting, but I don't believe that's necessarily accurate or even relevant. If a storm is a big change environment, all you need to do is alter that environment to something else and it stops having all of those effects.

 

See, I'd argue a sunny day is just a sunny day, it's not a series of powers that are accompanying a sunny day as a special effect. Not everything in Hero, I would argue, is a series of powers and special effects, some of the world is just the world. A planet's gravity isn't a huge telekinesis pulling people toward it, that's just gravity. The earth its self isn't a huge summon of stones you can dispel, it's just the earth. A storm is just weather.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Seems like the combat adders and such are needless' date=' all you need is just a big effect to change the weather from stormy to calm. All those combat effects are from the storm, not the calm and you're reversing them. It should be fairly cheap: megascale with a bunch of levels of lasting to make it a weather trend instead of a freak calming period.[/quote']

 

Hmmm... the potential problem I see here is that it would be *much* easier to make a sunny day than to make a storm using the same power base (CE), which seems wrong.

 

Why do you need the strength to negate the winds? They area RESULT of the storm' date=' you just need a power that makes the weather stop being a storm, an the results vanish. You don't have to make a power to stop raining when you stop a rainstorm, all you need is to stop the rainstorm. The weather will fix its self.[/quote']

 

Well, no. The are not the result of the storm, they are part of what we are calling a "storm" or in other terms, when temperature, wind, and rain combine sufficiently, we call it a "storm". You are saying here that without the storm, we wouldn't have the wind and the rain. I think it is the other way around, and that this is not merely semantics. Stop the wind and rain, and the "storm" is gone.

 

The storm is the special effect of various Perception penalties and OCV penalties' date=' etc. [/quote']I understand that's what you are insisting, but I don't believe that's necessarily accurate or even relevant. If a storm is a big change environment, all you need to do is alter that environment to something else and it stops having all of those effects.

 

I think that The Rose's statement is both relevant and accurate. If I buy a simple CE megascaled to make it warmer (the cheapest CE I can think of), why would that end the "storm"? Sure it's warmer now, but the penalities to OCV and PER from driving rain and gusting wind haven't gone away. I think the argument can be made that for a CE to completely cancel out the effects of another CE, the AP needed should be similiar, if not the same. Dispels, of course, are a bit cheaper, by design (i.e., the work via a different mechanism).

 

See' date=' I'd argue a sunny day is just a sunny day, it's not a series of powers that are accompanying a sunny day as a special effect. Not everything in Hero, I would argue, is a series of powers and special effects, some of the world is just the world. A storm is just weather. [/quote']

 

I agree that a storm may just be natural weather (then again, it may be the result of deliberate action, but the OP specifically referred to natural storms); however, if a character wants to change the storm, *that character* needs to rely on powers and special effects. Otherwise, how will I (the player or GM) know just how difficult it is to dissipate the storm?

 

In fact, Hero seems designed with this in mind. For example, I can't simply buy a cheap CE to always make the environment extremely cold, as temperature change is based on a relative system. If I am in an area that is already really fracking cold, then to go one more step to "extremely cold" is easy (and cheap). If I am standing on the surface of the sun, it would be more difficult, and therefore more expensive, to change the environment to "extremely cold". The world doesn't have to "pay" for its weather, but I do have to pay to change it, and because the changes are relative to the current conditions, I also need to have an idea of how much change is required. IMO.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

I think having to specify WHICH aspects of the weather you are affecting (wind, visibility, temperature, etc.) would be a fair requirement, but you shouldn't have to buy it to the same level as a CE that is going to adversely affect targets (the same number of temperature levels, the same offset in Per rolls, etc.). Also, since there's an infinite variety in the rolls the negative CE could influence, I think requiring the fair-weather CE to just cover the major aspects is reasonable. "Defenses" SHOULD generally be cheaper than "offsenses", and CE is pretty cheap; if you really want a more dramatic, effective, hard-to-counter attack, use something else (like attack powers specifically intended for that sort of thing).

[CTaylor]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Hmmm... the potential problem I see here is that it would be *much* easier to make a sunny day than to make a storm using the same power base (CE), which seems wrong.

 

Not really. You can make a storm for the same price as a sunny day; you just can't make a really horrific wracking storm that causes physical damage and combat penalties for as cheaply as a sunny day.

 

And since the rules are about how it affects the game in terms of character interaction that makes sense. Making it be sunny instead of rainy is largely indifferent to character interaction. Making a hurricane instead of a rainy day is very important. Thus, the sunny day should be fairly cheap, and the hurricane expensive.

 

In fact, in my opinion, making a sunny day should be pretty darn cheap for the benefits and impact it has on the game. That's a very minor result - if you make people pay over a hundred points just to create a balmy day something's wrong with the system.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

In fact' date=' in my opinion, making a sunny day should be pretty darn cheap for the benefits and impact it has on the game. That's a very minor result - if you make people pay over a hundred points just to create a balmy day something's wrong with the system.[/quote']

 

Unless there is a raging storm going on, in which case I disagree that making it a sunny day should be cheap. YMMV.

[薔薇語]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Not really. You can make a storm for the same price as a sunny day; you just can't make a really horrific wracking storm that causes physical damage and combat penalties for as cheaply as a sunny day.

If the storm isn't causing any negative effects on the players, then it probably isn't a storm.

 

And since the rules are about how it affects the game in terms of character interaction that makes sense. Making it be sunny instead of rainy is largely indifferent to character interaction. Making a hurricane instead of a rainy day is very important. Thus, the sunny day should be fairly cheap, and the hurricane expensive.

 

In fact, in my opinion, making a sunny day should be pretty darn cheap for the benefits and impact it has on the game. That's a very minor result - if you make people pay over a hundred points just to create a balmy day something's wrong with the system.

 

I think your right on the money. Creating a Sunny, nice day should be very very cheep. Something like a CE with +1 Temp, Megascaled. That is cheep and easy.

 

BUT canceling a Horrible day shouldn't be. After all what if I am a Storm from the X-Men, and I create a hurricane. It cost me a good deal of points to do so. How easy should it be for someone to cancel that ability?

 

In other words:

 

Sunny Day: Change Environment 1" radius, +1 Temperature Level Adjustment, MegaScale (1" = 10 km; +1/2) (7 Active Points)

---Makes an average day into a clear sky with the sun shining

 

Hurricane: Change Environment 1" radius, -3 to Sight Group PER Rolls, -4 to Hearing Group PER Rolls, -1 Temperature Level Adjustment, -2 Characteristic Roll and all Skill Rolls based on Characteristic (Dex), -4 OCV, -4" of any one mode of Movement (Running), -6" of any one mode of Movement (Flight), Multiple Combat Effects, Varying Combat Effects, MegaScale (1" = 10 km; +1/2) (148 Active Points)

---(rough draft, and lacks wind damage) Makes an average day into something equivalent to a Hurricane.

 

Should Sunny day be allowed to counteract Hurricane? I don't think so. Quite simply, I don't think it should have any effect at all.

 

La Rose

[CTaylor]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Let's just say the defense and ability to cancel a power is always cheaper than the power in Hero.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Defense is, but is the ability to "cancel" a power always cheaper? Even if it is, it should still cost more to make a "sunny day" out of a partly cloudy day, than out of a hurricane, shouldn't it? Maybe not as much as making a hurricane, but still...

[薔薇語]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Let's just say the defense and ability to cancel a power is always cheaper than the power in Hero.

 

Suppress doesn't have an upper ceiling to effect so you can buy a cheaper version of Suppress as compared to the Change Environment. The only question is on how fast you want it to act. While Suppress of comparable active points will take two to three attacks to stop the use of the power. And all though it does take multiple turns to completely stop the targeted power, it does work incrementally on it. So in a single turn the targeted power will lost about half of its affect. IE it turns a hurricane into a storm and then into nothing.

 

Although I will agree that the average defense does and should usually cost less (this is qualified by the 3rd paragraph), but that ins't guaranteed. In this case the defense against the CE is also useful for a large verity of powers possessing the same spf/x. I cite the wind wall example above.Also how much cheaper do you want the defense to be? Is it reasonable that the Sunny Day CE that was presented should be able to cancel the hurricane? If so, then I can just build a character who spends 11 active points and cancel ALL CEs on the entire world (CE with +1 1/4 megascale). That would be awful!

 

Last thought. Does Defense always cost less than the offense? I say no it doesn't. Think about a Energy blast as compared to ED. It cost 10 points to buy a 2d6 attack and yet it cost 12 points to completely stop the attack. That is a 20% mark up in cost to completely stop the effects of the power. It would seem that a complete defense actually cost MORE than the power it works against. Now yes I can stop the average damage for just 7 points of ED but still that is not going to stop the whole power as it only works fully half the time. So when it comes down to it, defense isn't cheaper compared to any single power but rather it only gets to have that aspect of 'being cheaper' because of our perceptions of gained affect.

 

La Rose

[CTaylor]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Actually my response was too short yesterday because I didn't have time, but Rose did a good job explaining part of what I was thinking:

 

There's a difference between a natural event and a power a character uses. A natural storm should be cheap to turn off, or change to something else. A character's power should be more expensive.

 

I would allow a Change Environment to turn natural weather off, but I'd require an adjustment power such as dispel or suppress to shut off someone's power.

 

And while I agree that it is more expensive to completely ignore a power, it is much cheaper to effectively ignore a power. You don't have to have 12 ED to ignore a 2D6 energy blast, 7-8 points will do so in most cases. And other powers make it even cheaper. For 12 power defense I can shrug off a 30 point major transform. For 12 flash defense I can ignore a 30 point Flash.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Let's just say the defense and ability to cancel a power is always cheaper than the power in Hero.

 

 

Sorry, personal bugbear, but, whilst we like to say that, it has never been true:

 

1d6 EB: 5 points

 

Energy defence to completely protect yourself from 1d6 EB: 6 points

 

(bit of a simplification: it should be 4ed (does not stop BODY -1/2) 3 points + 2ed (5 point total) +2" KBR (9 point total), but you get the point)

[CTaylor]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Heh, see above.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Calm the Storm

 

Heh' date=' see above.[/quote']

 

Good point well made, although, realistically to ignore 1d6 EB you'll need 4 ED and, arguably, 1 point of KBR, which still comes to 6. There are some powers which are very cheap to ignore, but normal attacks are pretty evenly balanced with defence costs and it is almost impossible to realistically be able to ignore killing attacks unless you spend well over the attack cost on defence.

 

In addition the actual cost of defences is increased by the diversity of attacks available: there is always an attack that can circumvent your defences so you need to spend on CON/STUN/REC and most characters will spend at least something on defences that will rarely be called into play. IIRC I once worked out that to be able to completely ignore 1DC of ANY attack (except of course NNDs) costs something like 66 points.

 

It is not a straightforward relationship, but the old saw about defences costing less than attacks is not accurate, even just looking towards expected results.