Haste Spell

[TrickstaPriest]

Essentially, the ability in question buys several points of Speed as per Characteristic. The Limitations are Costs Endurance (per Phase) (-1/2) and Increased Endurance Cost x2 (-1/2). Assuming 4 Levels of Spd are bought, that's a point cost of 20, and costs up to 8 END to use. The question, my friends, is whether the END cost is paid during the character's original Phases, or both original Phases and the Phases given to him by the ability?

[RadeFox]

The END cost must be paid on every phase in which he may take an action while the power is in effect. Should make it a pretty short lived spell, since he wont be able to take a recovery except for post 12, and he'll be burning 32 END plus his base Speed x 8 in END too.

[TrickstaPriest]

Oh!

 

Hmm, I didn't know that! I thought the x8 END would only apply for the points of Speed bought in the Characteristic Attribute. Hmm... what should I do to do it the way I intended? The idea is that the villain is fast, but can move much faster for short periods by burning a lot of END.

[Talon]

He won't pay END for his base SPD, but he will pay END for the extra SPD on his original Phases. So, if he was SPD 4 originally (SPD 8 with the power):

 

Segment 2: Granted Phase, Pay 8 END

Segment 3: Original Phase, Pay 8 END

Segment 5: Granted Phase, Pay 8 END

Segment 6: Original Phase, Pay 8 END

Segment 8: Granted Phase, Pay 8 END

Segment 9: Original Phase, Pay 8 END

Segment 11: Granted Phase, Pay 8 END

Segment 12: Original Phase, Pay 8 END

 

As you can see, that's a lot of END!

[Nightshade]

You have that, but the End cost is too high for it to be useful. Change the increased end cost limitation to something else with a -1/2 (such as a skill roll, or whatever based upon the other powers the character has). This way, instead of 8 end per phase it will be 4 end per phase. This may get it where you want it.

 

Nightshade

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Haste Spell

 

Originally posted by TrickstaPriest

Essentially, the ability in question buys several points of Speed as per Characteristic. The Limitations are Costs Endurance (per Phase) (-1/2) and Increased Endurance Cost x2 (-1/2). Assuming 4 Levels of Spd are bought, that's a point cost of 20, and costs up to 8 END to use. The question, my friends, is whether the END cost is paid during the character's original Phases, or both original Phases and the Phases given to him by the ability?

 

Ok, let's get complicated [hey, if you want "easy", pick a game with less than 100 pages of characetr generation rules ].

 

The effect you want is a character who can burn a lot of END to enhance his Speed, right? So let's make the actual power draw END from an END battery. This will limit how long he can do this, and how often, based on how much END you put in the battery and how much recovery you buy for it.

 

Now, we buy +8 Speed with the limitation "costs END" (END he draws from the END battery). Next, we have to deal with the exhaustion factor, so we should further limit the bonus Speed to carry a personal END cost in every extra phase the character actually uses. How much END is up to you. I'd give you a further +1/2 for paying double END for each extra phase he uses (to get the full +4 will cost you 8 END per extra phase).

 

As an alternative structure (there's always lots of different ways to do things, right?), let's look at the underlying mechanical problem. The character spends END in his normal phases to add extra phases under a strict reading of the rules. This is because of the kludgy "Must change speed at the end of a turn" rule. WAIVE THE RULE. Rule that the character in question spends END only when he uses his extra SPD, which is only when he uses one of the extra phases it grants him. Assuming a base speed of 4, he's not using the extra Speed in phases 3,6,9,12, so why should he have to spend END for it in those phases? If he had +60 STR, 2x END, he wouldn't be required to pay that END unless he uses the STR in that phase. Why should he have to pay END for extra Speed he doesn't use in that phase?

 

The more I think about this, the more reasonable this latter approach seems to me. You don't pay END because you have a power, you pay END when you use it. Why should Speed be any different?

[Tech]

Re: Re: Haste Spell

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The more I think about this, the more reasonable this latter approach seems to me. You don't pay END because you have a power, you pay END when you use it. Why should Speed be any different?

 

I heartily agree with this suggestion. It makes more sense this way.

[Talon]

Re: Re: Haste Spell

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The more I think about this, the more reasonable this latter approach seems to me. You don't pay END because you have a power, you pay END when you use it. Why should Speed be any different?

 

The difference is that SPD affects when all of the character's Phases happen. It's not like STR in that it has discrete uses; it's like DEX in that it's working pretty much all the time.

 

Consider if the character had 3 SPD with +5 SPD as the power. The Segments on which the character can act completely change at 3 vs. 8 SPD.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hey! Official word from Steve (love that rules question board, by the way) is that END cost for extra speed should only be paid on the phases it adds. However, someone has just pointed out that the FAQ says "every phase", so we're back where we started, I guess.

 

To me, charging every phase doesn't make sense. Let's say he has a 2 SPD to begin with and buys +2 SPD costs END. He pays 4 END per turn. A character who has a 6 SPD and buys +2 SPD pays double the end and gets exactly the same benefit. Is this fair?

 

I acknowledge there is an issue of when the character can move, but that's easily overcome with a little creativity. The specific phases are a kludge of the game system anyway, so just work around it.

 

Let's say he has a 3 SPD (4,8,12) with +4 Costs End (7 SPD: 2,4,6,7,9,11,12). Move the bonus phases around a bit. Either he moves in 2 or he doesn't. Either way, he acts in 4. If he chooses to act in 6 or 7, shift his usual Ph 8 to Ph 9. If not, he moves in 8. He chooses whether to move in 11, and moves in 12 regardless.

 

I'd be inclined to say that you move next on the later of the next SPD 8 phase and the next Speed 3 phase. If you move and then don't want to pay more END:

 

- move in 2, you next move in 4

- move in 6, you next move in (7 or 8) 8

- move in 7, you next move in (8 or 9) 9

 

Going the reverse, phase 8 is a problem if you moved in 7. If you pay END and move in 7, you will next move in 9 at no END cost, instead of 8.

 

Alternatively, maybe we just agree that this character gets Ph 4, 9 and 12 as a 3 Speed - a bit of a drawback for the character, as one phase is delayed, but hardly the end of the world.

 

No question it would be cleaner if the lower SPD only moved on phases the higher SPD would also get, but once you figure out how it's going to work, the player and GM will know the ground rules.

[badger3k]

Here's an idea I thought of when reading this thread - the SPD increase doesn't change particular phases - it's actually changing the whole turn. It wouldn't add any phases since its really changing all the phases that the character would move (or act) on. So it would make sense that the END would be paid for the whole turn (8 phases worth for SPD 8) - to my mind you should pay for it all at once at the powers activation (use the -1/4 limitation). However, what about using continuing charges that last one turn - the speed increase would be temporary and limited in uses. For being really draining, you can add costs END (or causes STUN damage when used).

 

Just a thought.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd be inclined to stick to the +1/4 "only when activated" - saving an extra 5 points on 4 bonus SPD hardly seems worth it for the huge multiplier on your END costs.

 

If you had a 4 SPD to begin with, say, that's the difference between 4 END once and 32 END per turn. Better to just pay 2x END to start it (-1 x 1/2 = -1/2).

 

The more I look at this, the more I think a susceptibility to using your bonus phases, which does END damage rather than STUN, is the better way to model SPD which costs END.

[Mr. Negative]

Re: Haste Spell

 

How about this idea, which gives you the same Speed Boost, sidesteps the issue of how Costs Endurance should work, and still costs Endurance (I blatantly hijacked my own post from elsewhere):

 

+4 Speed (40 Active Points), Major Side Effect always occurs and does a predefined amount of damage (3d6 END Drain Standard Effect) (-3/4)

 

This costs 22 points and gives you a speed boost which immediately drains 18 END (9 Character points worth). Alternatively, you could write up a lesser END drain, and make it continuous:

 

+4 Speed (40 Active), Minor Side Effect Always Occurs and Does a Predefined Amount of Damage (1d6 Continuous END Drain, Standard Effect) (-1/4)

 

This one costs 32 Real Points and the Side Effect (which is equivalent to 20 Active Points of effect) drains 6 END per phase. If you stop using the Speed, you stop losing the END, and, of course, if you don't do anything in a Phase, you can probably use your REC to regain the END lost to the Drain that phase. Technically, the Minor Side Effect only needs to be 15 points, but Drain is 10 point per d6.

 

[Farkling]

And what's wrong with 1/2 D6 Drain with Standard Effect? Or Even 1/2 D6+1 Does tha math work right for that?

 

The 1d6 would be 6 END/phase...right? (Power Points)

So, 1/2d6 +1 would be 5 END/phase, and 1/2d6 would be 3 END/phase....

 

I'll do the math to keep it fair... after all, I'm messing with a munchkin effect... (grins at Hugh)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Haste Spell

 

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

+4 Speed (40 Active Points), Major Side Effect always occurs and does a predefined amount of damage (3d6 END Drain Standard Effect) (-3/4)

 

This costs 22 points and gives you a speed boost which immediately drains 18 END (9 Character points worth).

 

You could also reduce the cost to 16 points, a big 6 points extra, at the cost of leaving the roll for the side effect. Now you average 21 END cost, but risk fluctuations in that amount. Reduce the cost to 20 by making it a -1 side effect (4d6 END drain) and you average 14 END, and need a pretty high roll to beat the 18 charged above. It would likely be more efficient (but riskier) to use that approach. Spend the 2 points you saved on END.

 

Save 18 CP at the cost of 18 END for each use of the power. Actually, I don't see a more practical way to achieve the effect. As an alternative, you could take costs END (-1/2), 3x END (-1), only costs END to activate (cut limitation by half to -3/4 in total), and get the same -3/4 limitation. You now only lose 12 END for starting up the power.

 

Problem is, while 12 END for 4 extra phases is 3 END per phase (and may be reasonable), technically I think the power can then remain up indefinitely. Since you only paid END on startup, I'm not convinced you must shut the power down to take a recovery (off PS 12, of course).

 

Without any "rules support", I'm inclined to say I would allow this on one of two bases. One - you must shut the power down if you wisah to take a recovery other than PS 12 (which may be correct anyway). Two - the power is "activated" once per turn, so you pay 12 END each turn to maintain the power. Now we're paying 3 END per bonus phase, which doesn't seem unreasonable on either side. [To me - the player will call it highway robbery, and Farkling will call me a munchkin enabler for considering it

 

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

+4 Speed (40 Active), Minor Side Effect Always Occurs and Does a Predefined Amount of Damage (1d6 Continuous END Drain, Standard Effect) (-1/4)

 

This one costs 32 Real Points and the Side Effect (which is equivalent to 20 Active Points of effect) drains 6 END per phase. If you stop using the Speed, you stop losing the END, and, of course, if you don't do anything in a Phase, you can probably use your REC to regain the END lost to the Drain that phase. Technically, the Minor Side Effect only needs to be 15 points, but Drain is 10 point per d6.

 

I think the 1 1/2 d6 side effect mentioned below is more in the game, but that's now 5 points per phase (1/2 die will average 2 so that should be the standard effect). Given the nominal variance and frequency of die rolls, I think you're wasting points to go with a standard effect. Mind you, if you figure the character is almost certain to have a base Speed of 3 or 4, he's spending 35 or 40 END per turn on this - the power is self-defeating.

 

OVERALL: I think either side effect or susceptibility works better than SPD - Costs END due to the mechanics of speed. Costs END only to activate also works reasonably well if appropriately defined, but no way would I let a player spend 12 END when he wakes up and keep +4 Speed running for free until he's forced to shut the power down. "SPD costs END" in any formn should mean significant END while the SPD is in use.

 

Speed that takes an END toll isn't unreasonable, at least in my opinion. The bigger question is whether you would allow someone to achieve a Speed that high in any case. I'd be pretty leery of +4 SPD in, say, Fantasy Hero without some pretty crushing limits. Definitely time to take the player aside and discuss the availability of this effect to NPC's as well.

 

In a Champions campaign, it may not be as devestating, depending on the character, but a high Speed remains very valuable, so it would definitely be a character by character decision. Speeds above a certain level is a definite "Stop Sign" in my books.

[Farkling]

Munchkin enabler....

 

 

No seriously, I like it a lot better in this format than the "costs End" construction...I really do. This is the direction I would send the "HyperMode" players in for constructing the effect.

 

The combat mechanics don't really support "SPD - costs END" because of the method of turn cycling. So the Side Effects or Susceptibilities are definitely the way to go, since they don't put a demand on the model utilized for combat.

[TrickstaPriest]

Good thoughts

 

I was mainly using +4 Spd as an example because it's a large enough number that the math comes out about right. No rounding and a good reflection on the overall differences between the costs of the various tweakings. The side effect one sounds about the best that I've heard so far, though this entire discussion reminds me about another END based puzzle I've been working on.

Anyway, essentially what I'm looking for is a Characteristic power that costs less than 40 (in this example of +4 Spd, anyway) but requires non-prohibitive amounts of END to use. Even if it cost 39 it'd be okay, I'm just trying to figure out how exactly this would be done. I tend to work by example, so I can apply this sort of thing to other powers as well. My main question was more, "how exactly is the END paid for this damn thing", the increased END multiplier was simply because I didn't realize how damn fast the costs would add up. I suppose taking "No END cost" for the last 30 points would reduce it to 1 END per phase, but it still doesn't answer the hairy questions of "When do we spend the END?" The Backlash (Drain) concepts look to be a way around that ugly hairball, fortunately.

[Blue Jogger]

Is there some reason why it should take any END? Having +4 Speed means the character is more than likely going to spend something like 16 END (at least) just moving and attacking or spellcasting on the four extra phases. Although, I suppose he could recover on those phases, assuming that he doesn't get attack.

 

A lot of grief could be saved if the spell is bought with continous charges.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger

Is there some reason why it should take any END? Having +4 Speed means the character is more than likely going to spend something like 16 END (at least) just moving and attacking or spellcasting on the four extra phases. Although, I suppose he could recover on those phases, assuming that he doesn't get attack.

 

A lot of grief could be saved if the spell is bought with continous charges.

 

I suspect one reason is getting around GM reluctance to allw the speed boost. I know I review extra SPD very carefully. Seeing a drawback like a big END hit might show me it will be used sparingly, not have the effect of granting the character an 8 or 10 Speed for most combats, and convince me the character should not have , say, very low attacks to justify this very high Speed.

[TrickstaPriest]

Yep yep

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I suspect one reason is getting around GM reluctance to allw the speed boost. I know I review extra SPD very carefully. Seeing a drawback like a big END hit might show me it will be used sparingly, not have the effect of granting the character an 8 or 10 Speed for most combats, and convince me the character should not have , say, very low attacks to justify this very high Speed.

 

That's the gist of it. In this case though, I'm the GM. ^^ I've used Champions way back when, but HERO is quite a bit different, and I'm still getting used to some of the things in it.

 

But yes, I tend to allow some pretty powerful abilities to my players if they can describe the powers and if they have enough restrictions to keep it from getting out of hand. Nothing too powerful or restrictive, of course, but enough to give the characters some kind of specialization or useful trick. Also, I tend to think of power bonuses in a broken-down fashion. That is, I list the benefits, then the disadvantages. This works well with HERO, but it runs into some problems. For example, the ability instantly heal damage or convert END to Stun or Body and vice versa... as a 0 Phase action. Of course, such a power would be ridiculously powerful... if it weren't for several disadvantages placed on the powers to restrict them. However, this often means I'm creating powers with very large Active Costs and fairly low Real Costs, and I often have to make some things up. (Such as, Aid being able to be used as a 0 Phase action... I don't suppose anyone would have a clue on the multiple of THAT bonus? ) Such a power would be almost totally invincible... if it didn't have some very heavily restrictions on its use. (Though, for the record, any "Attack Powers" that are 0 Phase I would only allow to be used once per Phase) Even with the restrictions, the cost may be higher than normal, but at least reasonable. There are plenty more powers I'm working out like this, some still very strong, others vital to a campaign world... (still need to decide how I want to represent "Converting Stamina to Chakra" in Naruto... and "concentrating all your Chakra into your legs" or whatever, since technically using all your Chakra is fatal.)

Another thing I'm looking at is something similar to Uncontrolled's use of END, where the total END is paid for up front instead of over a period (this would be good for the Spd enhancement, requiring it to be activated at the beginning of the Turn for the total END cost over the Turn). The main reason I'm thinking this out is I'm going to use it for powers that can be used over long periods. That is, it will have a END cost of less than 1 END per phase, but with the restriction that you cannot recover the pre-paid END using recoveries until after the power ends.

I tend to like HERO because it really lets me customize powers like this, it's just so many of the enhancements are so game-breaking on their own that it's hard to give a point cost to it.