A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

[Gary]

A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I know the title is very ambitious, but this is what I intend to accomplish.

 

Why do an overhaul?

 

I happen to think that Hero System is a darn good RPG system, possibly the finest in the world. And in truth it works most of the time. About 3 decades of play has shown that it has stood the test of time. However, there are a few things that I don’t like about the Combat and Skill systems:

 

1) It’s not granular enough. There isn’t enough differentiation and precision built into the system, especially at the heroic level.

 

2) Every +1 to a roll has an extremely high effect. Adding +1 OCV to an equal OCV/DCV situation results in a 11.6% increase in to hit. Adding +1 DCV to the same situation decreases the to hit probabilities by 12.5%. That’s a heck of a lot for a single CSL.

 

3) Related to the above is that just a few points of CV differential can make a character almost always hit or be almost impossible to hit. +4 OCV differential means you’ll miss less than 5% of the time. +6 DCV differential means you’ll be hit less than 5% of the time.

 

4) The cost/benefit effectiveness of Dex is massively skewed compared to skill levels for combat and non-combat.

 

5) Mentalists who use non-Ego Blast Mental Powers tend to be super weak or super strong depending on active points of the power. At 40 points, it’s relatively ineffective compared to other 40 pt powers. At 60-70 points, it’s relatively balanced. At 100 points, it’s wildly overpowered.

 

6) Find Weakness is unbalanced in general

 

7) I believe the Skills System can use some improvement. It’s got a fair number of oddities at the moment.

 

I believe my proposed system addresses the above issues. It may create new issues, but that is why I’m throwing out the system for review. To find possible issues and perhaps improve my system.

 

Guiding Philosophy

 

1) Playability is the number one issue. Any new system should be at least comparable to the current system in terms of ease of use and understanding.

 

2) I believe I should make as little change as possible to the character creation process. Ideally, I can use my system with existing character sheets with minimal problems.

 

3) Costs shouldn’t be changed. I want to keep existing costs if possible unless a cost becomes ridiculous under the new system.

 

4) Balance is kept.

 

Basics

 

All Characteristics have a Characteristic Number. Abbreviation will be ChrN. So your Dex Number will be abbreviated as DexN. This ChrN is equal to the Chr/3. So a Dex of 26 gives you DexN of 9. For the most part, the only ChrNs that matter are Dex, Int, Ego, and Pre.

 

Attack Draws

 

The Attack Roll is replaced with an Attack Draw. First get something like a GO set with lots of black and white beads. You can use cards or different colored dice instead, as long as they’re all the same size, shape, and weight. The basic Attack Draw uses OCV and DCV as follows:

 

For each point of OCV, pull a black bead. For each point of DCV, pull a white bead. Put the total in an opaque container of some sort, shake, and draw a bead at random. If a black is pulled, the attack is a hit. If a white is pulled, the attack is a miss.

 

Design note:

Equal CVs means a 50% chance of a hit instead of 62.5% under the new system. This is a deliberate design change since the chance of a runaway DCV score making a character virtually impossible to hit has been greatly diminished and thus there is no need for the increase in basic to hit probability. Plus 50% is more balanced and symmetric.

 

A character’s base OCV/DCV is equal to his DexN.

 

Example:

Snake has a DexN of 9 and attacks Rock who has a DexN of 5. 9 black beads and 5 white beads are thrown into the container. Snake will hit if he draws a black and miss if he draws a white. If Rock attacks Snake, there will be 5 blacks and 9 whites in his draw pile.

 

Combat Modifiers

 

All combat modifiers except for CSLs are applied as follows:

 

CV Penalties: All CV penalties take away one from your CV and adds one to the opponent’s CV. The minimum CV is 1.

 

Example:

Using the above example, Snake uses Offensive Strike on Rock. This gives -2 OCV penalty. Snake loses 2 from his OCV and Rock adds 2 to his DCV. The resulting draw pile goes from 9B5W to 7B7W.

 

CV Bonuses: All CV bonuses add +2 to the relevant CV. Any Dodge type maneuver also subtracts 1 from the opposing CV for every bonus above +3. So Martial Dodge subtracts 2 from the opposing CV and Flying Dodge subtracts 1 from the opposing CV.

 

Example:

Snake has used Offensive Strike which gives +1 DCV normally on Rock. Rock strikes back. His 5B9W draw pile goes to 5B11W. If Snake did a martial dodge, Rock’s draw pile would be 3B19W!

 

Design Note: The differentiation between CV penalties and CV bonuses is intentional. This meshes with the rest of the system better and the maneuvers with CV penalties are generally more powerful if a hit lands than a regular maneuver. Thus they should be penalized more and can result in a very small chance of a hit if the attacker is too aggressive. Martial Dodge and Flying Dodge get additional benefits since otherwise they don’t give enough benefit for the cost.

 

Combat Skill Levels

 

2 and 3 point CSLs can only be used to add +2 CV. 5, 8, and 10 pt CSLs and bonuses from Spreading attacks are first used to cancel any penalties in effect. After that, the user has a choice of adding +2 CV or +1 CV and -1 to the opposing CV. CSLs can never reduce the opposing CV to less than half fractions rounded down (FRD) their DexN. All relevant 2 and 3 point CSLs from both sides cancel out appropriately and the same for 5, 8, and 10 pt CSLs plus bonuses from Spreading attacks before further calculations are done.

 

Example:

Snake has 2 3 pt levels with martial arts and conducts the Offensive Strike. His draw pile goes from 7B7W to 11B7W. If they were 5 pt HTH levels, they would cancel the -2 Offensive Strike Penalty first and his draw pile would be 9B5W. If he had 4 HTH CSLs, the first 2 would cancel out penalties, and the other 2 can be used as he pleases. He could use them for +4 OCV, +3 OCV -1 Rock DCV, or +2 OCV and -2 Rock DCV. No matter how many CSLs he has, he cannot reduce Rock’s DCV below 2 (half FRD his DexN) If Snake has 4 HTH CSLs in attack and Rock has 1 in defense, then 3 of Snake’s HTH CSLs would be used to cancel penalties plus Rock’s HTH level, leaving only 1 CSL free.

 

Design Note: Each individual point of CV is worth less than under the current system, thus each +1 or -1 from a maneuver or CSL has double effect to maintain balance. 5+ pt levels are given more flexibility than 2-3 pt levels because of their increased cost and need for balance.

 

CSLs are treated differently compared to maneuvers with regard to how much CV can be reduced because using a maneuver is a conscious choice by the attacker/defender whereas using a CSL to reduce an opponent’s CV isn’t something easy to protect against. Otherwise it’d be too easy to use a bunch of 5 pt CSLs to make yourself hitproof or autohitting the foe. CSLs under this system are balanced with Dex for the same cost.

 

 

Half CV

 

If a combat circumstance or maneuver dictates that the character has half CV, reduce his appropriate color by half FRU. Thus if Snake rapid fires, his 9 whites in defense drops to 5 since his DCV is halved in this circumstance.

 

Rule of 10 (R10)

 

If either color of the draw pile is 10 or greater, then halve each color. If there are 10+ of a color, then halve the color FRU. If there are fewer than 10, then halve the color FRD. Repeat as necessary until both draw piles are below 10. R10 is the ONLY way that a character’s CV can be reduced to 0 aside from certain Powers.

 

Example:

From the Martial Dodge example above, the draw pile is 3B19W. After applying R10, the draw pile becomes 1B10W. Since one of the colors is still 10+, it gets applied again to 0B5W. If Snake used 2 HTH CSLs defensively and was attacked by a Normal with OCV 3, his normal 3B9W draw pile can be changed to 1B11W. After applying R10, the draw pile becomes 0B6W. The Normal literally cannot hit Snake fighting defensively!

 

Design Notes:

1) The main reason for R10 is to simplify. It could bog down the game if 2 people with a bunch of CSLs and MA maneuvers get a draw pile of 17B25W for example.

 

2) R10 gives a small bonus to people with higher CVs.

 

3) R10 can allow for a Spiderman or Flash character to be completely immune to attacks from ordinary OCV 3 Normals without having to increase their DCV to completely ridiculous levels.

 

4) A GM can rule that only mooks and normals can be reduced to 0 CV through R10. PCs and important NPCs should have a minimum of 1 CV.

 

Autofire

 

For Autofire attacks, use the original Draw Pile. DO NOT APPLY R10. If the attacker pulls a black, he gets a hit. Add 1 white and leave the black out. Continue this process until he draws a White which ends the attack or if he runs out of shots. If he would normally be guaranteed a hit due to R10, he gets a minimum of 1 hit.

 

Example:

Snake throws 3 shuriken at Rock. His draw pile after all CSLs and maneuvers is 13B5W. If he draws a white, he misses. If he draws black and then white, he hits once. If he draws BBW, he hits twice. If he draws BBB, he hits 3 times which is the max. After the first black, the pile is 12B6W. After the 2nd, the pile is 11B7W. After the 3rd, the pile is 10B8W in case he had further shots.

 

Skill Draws

 

Skills use the mechanics of the above combat system. Skill Rolls are replaced by Skill Draws. All Skills cost as follows:

 

1 pt gives you 1/3 of your ChrN as your Skill Number.

 

2 pts gives you 2/3 of your ChrN as your Skill Number.

 

3 pts gives you your ChrN as your Skill Number, and you’re allowed to apply SLs for that Skill.

 

Example:

Snake has a 26 Dex and thus a DexN of 9. He wants to buy Breakfall. For 1 pt, he gets a Breakfall skill of 3. For 2 pts, his Breakfall skill is 6. For 3 pts, his Breakfall skill is 9.

 

Joe Normal has a 10 Dex and DexN of 3. For 1 pt, he gets a Breakfall of 1. For 2 pts, he gets a Breakfall of 2. 3 pts gets a Breakfall of 3 and allows him to apply additional SLs with Breakfall.

 

Opposed Skills

 

If one Skill is being opposed by another, the system for combat is used with the opposing Skill Numbers being used to determine the draw piles.

 

Example:

Snake is trying to Stealth past Rock who has a Perception number of 4. Snake’s Stealth number is 9. Snake draws from a 9B4W draw pile.

 

Unopposed Skills

 

If a skill isn’t actively opposed, the base is 3 whites in the pile. All net circumstance bonuses to the skill adds 2 blacks per +1. All net circumstance penalties remove 1 black and adds 1 white. A draw pile can be reduced all the way to 0 blacks through penalties. Thus for an Impossible (-10) skill roll, 10 blacks are removed and 10 whites are added! The character had better purchase a lot of Skill Levels…

 

Skill Levels

 

All SLs retain their current cost structure. All SLs no matter what their cost can be used to cancel penalties, and they can be used to either add +2 blacks or add +1 black and -1 white to the pile. You can’t reduce the pile below half FRD the original white total for Skills using SLs. However, R10 can reduce the final pile to 0 as usual.

 

Example:

Snake has 2 SLs with Stealth in the above example. He chooses to add +2 and apply -2 to Rock. Now his pile is 11B2W. After R10, the pile is 6B1W.

 

Made Skill by X

 

In cases of Skills where making the roll at all is good and making it by more is beneficial, use the autofire methodology. Drawing the first B is equivalent to making the roll exactly. Each additional black drawn counts as an additional 2 that the skill was made by. As usual, you need to add an additional white every time a black is drawn while not replacing the black.

 

Example:

Fatwell the Televangelist is trying to use Oratory to get the crowd to donate. The GM rules that the amount donated depends on how much Fatwell makes his Oratory roll by. Fatwell has an Oratory of 7 with 2 SLs and the GM rules that the crowd has an average 3 for defense. Fatwell uses his 2 SLs to change the draw pile from 7B3W to 9B1W. Fatwell draws 3 Blacks before finally pulling a White. The draw pile while he was pulling went from 9B1W to 8B2W to 7B3W before he finally drew white. This counts the same as if Fatwell had made his Oratory by 4 (1 Black for the original success and 2 per additional Black drawn). Fatwell could have hypothetically drawn 9 Blacks in a row which would mean making the roll by 16! However, this is VERY unlikely…

 

Design Notes:

I gave added flexibility for even the 2 pt SLs because they aren’t terribly cost effective under the current system.

 

Characteristic Draws

 

Characteristic Draws are treated the same as Skill Draws unless another rule supersedes it.

 

Find Weakness

 

10 pts gives you basic FW which gives you 3 Black vs a 3 White draw pile against targets without LW. Each level costs 5 pts and gives you +2 Blacks. Each point of LW costs 1 pt and removes 1 black and adds 1 white to the pile, to a minimum of 1 black but no maximum number of whites. Now if you bought enough LW so that R10 applies, then the black can ultimately drop to 0. The draw pile after each success drops by 2B and adds 2W. So base FW against a target with no LW has a 3B3W pile. After 1 success, you have 1B5W. It’s impossible to get a 3rd success with base level FW (what do you expect for 10 lousy points?).

 

Design notes:

I wanted FW to be useful without being overwhelming. I added +/-2 instead of 1 after each success because each FW is extremely powerful. I wanted it to be difficult to have multiple FW successes.

 

Mental Powers

 

Mental powers use OECV vs DECV using the combat mechanics described above. If a Mind Scan, Mental Illusion, Mind Control, or Telepathy attack hits, roll effects as normal. The target draws to Breakout using his EgoN vs the mentalist’s EgoN to determine draw pile. Every 5 pts rolled by the mentalist above what was needed adds 2 white to the draw pile. For any mental power where modifiers would apply, add 2 to the relevant color for every 5 on the chart on the mind control table in 5ER. For a non-maintained mental power, each step down the time chart adds 2 blacks to the target and removes 2 whites from the mentalist during that breakout attempt.

 

Example:

Brain Hulk decides to Mind Control Night Hawk into attacking Defender. He gets +35 on the effects roll. The GM rules that he needed to roll +30 for this effect, so he gets +5 over what he needed. BH has a 9 EgoN and Night Hawk has 6. Night Hawk normally would have 6B9W for his draw pile. However, Brain Hulk had +5 above what he needed which adds +2 to the W pile. In addition, the GM has seen NH and Defender quarreling over the past few adventures and rules that since Defender was getting on NH’s nerves, that applies an additional +2 to the W pile. NH’s new draw pile is 6B13W. After R10, it becomes 3B7W.

 

Example:

After one full turn, Night Hawk gets another chance to Breakout. Since Brain Hulk wasn’t paying the End to maintain the MC, that adds 2 blacks and removes 2 whites. In addition, Sapphire had made an impassioned plea to NH and the GM rules that to be worth +2 blacks to NH’s pile. His 6B13W pile becomes 10B11W which after R10 is 5B6W. A much better chance of breaking out.

 

Design Notes:

I didn’t allow the mentalist to reduce the target’s black numbers other than by R10 for game balance reasons. I already made lower level mental effects much more likely to succeed since the target uses the mentalist’s EgoN as the opposing factor. Conversely, very high active points of mental powers gives the target a better chance of breaking out because of the diminishing returns effect of this new mechanic.

 

Optional Rule:

 

A mentalist can affect the target even if he doesn’t get the effects roll needed. Each 1 pt below what’s needed removes 1 from his draw pile and adds 1 to his opponent’s draw pile.

 

Example:

From the above example, let’s suppose Brain Hulk only got +27. He’s 3 pts short of what’s needed so Night Hawk’s breakout roll instead of being 6B13W, becomes 9B10W. After R10, it becomes 4B5W.

 

Design note:

 

This optional rule allows even lower level mental powers to have a chance. Finally, a low level mental power is balanced with low level other attack powers. And this rule doesn’t affect high level mental powers at all.

[Checkmate]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I made it as far as the Attack Draw, and realized I'd never use it (I'll go through the rest later). Using beads in a container for each point of OCV/DCV is incredibly inefficient. Every time once character wants to attack another, I'm counting beads. Assuming you're not changing the way CSL's work just the cost, I couldn't even have prepared containers of beads.

 

I would recommend finding a way to use dice. What if the Attacker and the Defender both rolled 3d6 and added their respective OCV or DCV for every attack? Would that work out better mathematically?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

Interesting, but I it seems incredibly impractical to me for the same reason Checkmate mentioned. I mean, counting that many beads that many times, would at least triple our current combat time. Also, while I agree the current system isn’t perfect, and it could use more granularity (at least in Heroic level games) I really don’t see this alternative of yours as simpler. In fact, while your method of counting things out may in fact be simpler, I think the whole idea of “Attack Draws” and such is more complicated than rolling a few dice.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

a lot of the things you mention (most especially the lack of granularity in the skill system) are things that I like about HERO. I like that fact that a bonus of +1 is fairly significant and that +3 is a helluvalot. The Bell Curve is king.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I'm also a little confused by all the bonuses and penalties and why they are handled so differently from each other. If I were to use such a system (and I'm not sure I would for reasons similar to those given in the posts above) I think I'd want it to be simpler and more consistent. Why does someone with a 5 OCV and a -1 penalty have a worse chance to hit than someone who starts with a 4 OCV but has no bonuses or penalties? Maybe I'd have to sit down and analyse some actual probabilities for it to make more sense, but off the top of my head it's a bit odd.

[The Dude]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I barely understand the probabilities of the current system.

 

Learning a whole set of new ones would give me a headache worse than some all night drinking binges!

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

OCV 6 against DCV 4 means you have a 6/10 (60%) chance of hitting. OCV 6 against DCV 8 means you have a 6/14 (43%) chance of hitting. The defender doubles their DCVbut the chance to hit goes down 17%.

 

Personally I like the bell curve because I prefer superhero genre, and it better simulates big differences in ability without having massive stat inflation.

 

If you don't like that though, it would be quicker to just replace the 3d6 roll with a d20 roll, hitting on 10-. In the above examples the first would hit on 12- (60%) and the second would hit on 8- (40%): similar to your results but MUCH quicker to work out.

[Kdansky]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

It is an interesting way of doing it. Basically you are doing not a comparison like d20 or hero, where you add/subtract OCV/DCV, where REAL differences are relevant, but rather one where RELATIVE differences count. 10 vs 5 is the same as 20 vs 10.

 

That means that boni and mali get less relevant the better both combatants are. At 3 CV, dodge is killer. At 30 CV, dodge is nearly pointless. Which is the total opposite from right now. You essentially replace the horrible scaling in regards to different powerlevels (12 ocv vs 6 dcv) right now with horrible scaling in regards to high/low power characters. You also remove the bell-curve, which made Dodge useful in the first place (try a +3 DCV Dodge and roll a d20. It's not worth doing for 15% -hit).

 

Another thing I don't like: You get choices of how to allocate levels where you always have an ideal choice (from a probability point of view), but for most people, this is very difficult to calculate. This means that some people (like me) would have a tremendous advantage if they can do the math in their head. I would also slow play down, since I would insist of doing that math to know which maneuver gives me better chances. And other players would have to guess which means they lose. I know another system which does something similar, and I hate it for it.

 

I also don't think it's workable in practice, since recounting the beads and drawing takes ages compared to rolling dice. I also like rolling dice (though I do play Go and I like that too from a tactile point of touch).

 

But thanks for the interesting read.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

Sorry once you start counting beads or using cards or any such ,you lose me. I like my nice simple quick die rolls.

[Gary]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I made it as far as the Attack Draw, and realized I'd never use it (I'll go through the rest later). Using beads in a container for each point of OCV/DCV is incredibly inefficient. Every time once character wants to attack another, I'm counting beads. Assuming you're not changing the way CSL's work just the cost, I couldn't even have prepared containers of beads.

 

I would recommend finding a way to use dice. What if the Attacker and the Defender both rolled 3d6 and added their respective OCV or DCV for every attack? Would that work out better mathematically?

 

If you read further, I've taken care of the problem with the Rule of 10. You never have to worry about drawing more than 9 of each color for any roll. I figure gamers who are used to rolling 10-15d6 every attack shouldn't have any problems drawing a few beads...

 

If you really must go for dice, it's easy. Just take the total number of beads in the draw pile and roll the appropriate dice type. For example, a final 4B5W pile has 9 total beads and would roll a d10. A 1-4 is a hit and 5-9 is a miss. 10's would be rerolled. Nice and quick. Autofire attacks would have to pull the full beads, but that's rare enough that it shouldn't slow down play.

[Gary]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

It is an interesting way of doing it. Basically you are doing not a comparison like d20 or hero, where you add/subtract OCV/DCV, where REAL differences are relevant, but rather one where RELATIVE differences count. 10 vs 5 is the same as 20 vs 10.

 

That means that boni and mali get less relevant the better both combatants are. At 3 CV, dodge is killer. At 30 CV, dodge is nearly pointless. Which is the total opposite from right now. You essentially replace the horrible scaling in regards to different powerlevels (12 ocv vs 6 dcv) right now with horrible scaling in regards to high/low power characters. You also remove the bell-curve, which made Dodge useful in the first place (try a +3 DCV Dodge and roll a d20. It's not worth doing for 15% -hit).

 

Yes, there is a diminishing returns aspect to CV and Levels. However at the most common CV levels 5-15, the system probabilities work quite well. At CV 30 for each participant (Flash vs Reverse Flash?), a Martial Dodge still changes the pile from 30B30W to 28B40W. After R10, the final pile would change from 8B8W to 3B5W. Still a significant bonus, but not as good as if you started with 8 CV each.

 

 

Another thing I don't like: You get choices of how to allocate levels where you always have an ideal choice (from a probability point of view), but for most people, this is very difficult to calculate. This means that some people (like me) would have a tremendous advantage if they can do the math in their head. I would also slow play down, since I would insist of doing that math to know which maneuver gives me better chances. And other players would have to guess which means they lose. I know another system which does something similar, and I hate it for it.

 

From a probability standpoint, the math is easy. You want to remove whites if you have equal or higher blacks, and you want to add blacks if your pile has fewer blacks even after adding the extra blacks.

 

Honestly, the choice doesn't make that much difference from a probability point of view unless one of the piles is already very low. However, the system is set up so that having skill levels is very appealing. I see this as a feature, not a bug.

 

I also don't think it's workable in practice, since recounting the beads and drawing takes ages compared to rolling dice. I also like rolling dice (though I do play Go and I like that too from a tactile point of touch).

 

But thanks for the interesting read.

 

I've practiced, and it takes surprising little time to draw a few beads once you're used to it. And you can change it to a dice system. See my above post.

[Warp9]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

1) It’s not granular enough. There isn’t enough differentiation and precision built into the system, especially at the heroic level.

 

2) Every +1 to a roll has an extremely high effect. Adding +1 OCV to an equal OCV/DCV situation results in a 11.6% increase in to hit. Adding +1 DCV to the same situation decreases the to hit probabilities by 12.5%. That’s a heck of a lot for a single CSL.

Ideally what I'd like to see here is a more spread out bell curve, where every single point makes a difference.

 

I'd like there to be a difference between 11 and 12 DEX. It might not be a +1 OCV on 3d6, but perhaps it could be a +1 on some larger curve.

 

I actually liked GURPS (at least GURPS 3rd edition, I don't know about 4th ed), because every single point was relevant. Although they used a 3d6 curve, so your second point about each +1 being a big deal would still be a problem.

[Blackberry]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

It's an interesting idea. It's extremely fiddly, though, and like was mentioned, I can't even count out tube of beads in advance because I just have to dump then out and recount them to make adjustments. Or have literally hundreds of beads and dozens of tubs on the table.

 

And even then, once I've determined success, I have to push the beads aside and pick up the dice anyway to determine effect.

 

If what you want is to eliminate the odd numbered hump at the center of the bell curve and emphasize the difference between CVs, seems to me it would be easier to do something based around Fudge dice.

[Lucius]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I figure gamers who are used to rolling 10-15d6 every attack shouldn't have any problems drawing a few beads...

 

 

I think you figured wrong.

 

First, go back and figure out how much time this will actually add to a combat.

 

Then, go back to the drawing board.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Back to the palindromedary

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

Ideally what I'd like to see here is a more spread out bell curve, where every single point makes a difference.

 

I'd like there to be a difference between 11 and 12 DEX. It might not be a +1 OCV on 3d6, but perhaps it could be a +1 on some larger curve.

 

I actually liked GURPS (at least GURPS 3rd edition, I don't know about 4th ed), because every single point was relevant. Although they used a 3d6 curve, so your second point about each +1 being a big deal would still be a problem.

 

First off it is worth pointing out that almost all Hero characteristics have point by point granularity:

 

STR you can lift more with each point

DEX you go faster in combat with each point

CON you are better able to resst being stunned with each point

BODY you are better able to stay alive with each point

INT...er...that's one that doesn't, unless it is in resisting INT drains

PRE you are better able to resist PRE attacks

COM you get to actually look better

 

Secondary characteristics all have obvious point by point granularity

 

However, it would be nice if skill and combat rolls had point granularity too. There are a number of solutions to that. Here's one I quite like:

 

1. Base everything on CHA/5, including combat. Always round down. Note your contribution from skill as CHA/5 followed by a remainder. For instance, 13 DEX would be 2(3) i.e. DEX/5 rounded down is 2, remainder 3. Subject to any modifiers you are usually aiming at acheiving a target number of 11 (or less) on the roll.

 

2. Combat works using 11-OpposingDEX/5 as a base target number.

 

3. You add your characteristic modifier to the target number.

 

4. When you roll 3d6, make sure one of the dice is a different colour. Make the roll as normal. If the odd die total is equal to or less than your remainder value, you can add one to the target number.

 

Example:

 

You have a 17 INT, so you have 3(2) to INT skills and PER.

 

You try to make a PER roll. The target number is 11, but it is slightly foggy, so the GM rules you have a -2 penalty: target number now (11-2)=9. Your INT/5 is 3, so the target number is 12.

 

You roll 3d6, achieving a total of 13, which would normally fail. However, the odd die shows a 1, which is less than your INT remainder, so you add 1 to the target number (or subtract 1 from the roll total - same difference), and - just - succeed.

 

It should add almost no time to resolution.

 

If you don't want to base combat on DEX/5, use DEX/3 and if the remainder is 1, you get a +1 on an odd dice 2 or less and on a remainder of 2, you get +1 on an odd dice of 4 or less.

[Gary]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I think you figured wrong.

 

First, go back and figure out how much time this will actually add to a combat.

 

Then, go back to the drawing board.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Back to the palindromedary

 

I've done so. With a little practice, it doesn't take very long. It takes even less time if you roll dice as suggested in post 10 of this thread.

[Gary]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

OCV 6 against DCV 4 means you have a 6/10 (60%) chance of hitting. OCV 6 against DCV 8 means you have a 6/14 (43%) chance of hitting. The defender doubles their DCVbut the chance to hit goes down 17%.

 

Personally I like the bell curve because I prefer superhero genre, and it better simulates big differences in ability without having massive stat inflation.

 

If you don't like that though, it would be quicker to just replace the 3d6 roll with a d20 roll, hitting on 10-. In the above examples the first would hit on 12- (60%) and the second would hit on 8- (40%): similar to your results but MUCH quicker to work out.

 

One thing to note is that each CV is worth about 1/2 the amount of a current CV under my system. Thus going from DCV 4 to 8 is the equivalent of 2 CSLs. So reducing by 17% for 2 CSLs seems right to me.

[Warp9]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

First off it is worth pointing out that almost all Hero characteristics have point by point granularity:

 

STR you can lift more with each point

DEX you go faster in combat with each point

CON you are better able to resst being stunned with each point

BODY you are better able to stay alive with each point

INT...er...that's one that doesn't, unless it is in resisting INT drains

PRE you are better able to resist PRE attacks

COM you get to actually look better

 

Secondary characteristics all have obvious point by point granularity

 

However, it would be nice if skill and combat rolls had point granularity too. There are a number of solutions to that. Here's one I quite like:

 

1. Base everything on CHA/5, including combat. Always round down. Note your contribution from skill as CHA/5 followed by a remainder. For instance, 13 DEX would be 2(3) i.e. DEX/5 rounded down is 2, remainder 3. Subject to any modifiers you are usually aiming at acheiving a target number of 11 (or less) on the roll.

 

2. Combat works using 11-OpposingDEX/5 as a base target number.

 

3. You add your characteristic modifier to the target number.

 

4. When you roll 3d6, make sure one of the dice is a different colour. Make the roll as normal. If the odd die total is equal to or less than your remainder value, you can add one to the target number.

 

Example:

 

You have a 17 INT, so you have 3(2) to INT skills and PER.

 

You try to make a PER roll. The target number is 11, but it is slightly foggy, so the GM rules you have a -2 penalty: target number now (11-2)=9. Your INT/5 is 3, so the target number is 12.

 

You roll 3d6, achieving a total of 13, which would normally fail. However, the odd die shows a 1, which is less than your INT remainder, so you add 1 to the target number (or subtract 1 from the roll total - same difference), and - just - succeed.

 

It should add almost no time to resolution.

 

If you don't want to base combat on DEX/5, use DEX/3 and if the remainder is 1, you get a +1 on an odd dice 2 or less and on a remainder of 2, you get +1 on an odd dice of 4 or less.

 

All good points/ideas.

 

Only way I can argue with that is to change the goal posts. Which I'm about to do.

 

I do actually kind of like to see a greater in-play difference between DEX 9 and DEX 12, even than the DEX/3 would provide. I personally don't mind the GURPS method of using the straight stats.

 

DEX 9 roll = 9-

 

DEX 12 roll is 12-

 

but I could see how some might think that was a bit much on a 3d6 curve.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

All good points/ideas.

 

Only way I can argue with that is to change the goal posts. Which I'm about to do.

 

I do actually kind of like to see a greater in-play difference between DEX 9 and DEX 12, even than the DEX/3 would provide. I personally don't mind the GURPS method of using the straight stats.

 

DEX 9 roll = 9-

 

DEX 12 roll is 12-

 

but I could see how some might think that was a bit much on a 3d6 curve.

 

 

There were goal posts?

 

I think the biggest problem with that approach is backwards compatibility: none of the existing material would work. At present the difference between DEX 11 and DEX 18 is 2 CV. If it were 7 CV, you'd have no real chance at all...unless you got rid of the 3d6 and went over to a d20 system - and even then you only have a 15% chance of hitting.

 

Another potential criticism is that the difference between 11 DEX and 12 DEX is 1 OCV, 1 DCV and one point of lightning reflexes - in other words making it THAT granular actually reduces the detail by making OCV, DCV and lightning reflexes 'cost' the same.

 

I agree that greater granularity in characteristics is desireable, but how to go about achieving it. Vive la difference

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

One thing to note is that each CV is worth about 1/2 the amount of a current CV under my system. Thus going from DCV 4 to 8 is the equivalent of 2 CSLs. So reducing by 17% for 2 CSLs seems right to me.

 

I'm not criticising the numbers so much as suggesting that your system, which is interesting and inventive, gives very similar results to simply replacing the 3d6 with a d20.

[Warp9]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

There were goal posts?

 

I think the biggest problem with that approach is backwards compatibility: none of the existing material would work. At present the difference between DEX 11 and DEX 18 is 2 CV. If it were 7 CV, you'd have no real chance at all...unless you got rid of the 3d6 and went over to a d20 system - and even then you only have a 15% chance of hitting.

 

Another potential criticism is that the difference between 11 DEX and 12 DEX is 1 OCV, 1 DCV and one point of lightning reflexes - in other words making it THAT granular actually reduces the detail by making OCV, DCV and lightning reflexes 'cost' the same.

 

I'm not personally greatly concerned about the backwards compatibility. But I do agree that it is important to many gamers, and my concepts would create problems with backwards compatibility.

 

 

 

However, if we pretend that backwards compatibility is not important. . . .

 

What I'd like to see is something where each point of DEX gives +1 to your to hit, but rather than going with 3d6, I'd like to see a DC Heroes (open ended) 2d10 approach. In DC Heroes system, you roll 2d10 and add them together, with the added bonus that if you roll doubles, you roll again and add that. You can keep going as long as you roll doubles.

 

(note, in order to do this, you'd probably want to change over from "roll-under" to a "roll-high" vs TN)

 

roll:7 + roll:2 = 9

roll:6 + roll:6 (doubles!, roll again) + roll:8 + roll:3 = 23

 

 

This makes things so that the target numbers would be able to go higher and higher, and the results would be wilder than the results of a 3d6 curve.

 

A DEX 11 character trying to hit a DEX 18 character, would need to throw a 17 on the dice. This could be done by rolling 9+10, or 10+9, or 8+9, or 9+8, or by rolling doubles.

 

 

 

I agree that greater granularity in characteristics is desireable, but how to go about achieving it. Vive la difference

Yeah, it is not easy.

 

As you mention, there are issues of backwards compatibility, and questions about how much of a game difference adding +1 to a characteristic should make. And I think it varies by the type of contest. Arm wrestling should IMO pretty much go to the strongest character, combat situations are more messy and probably more random.

[Gary]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I'm not criticising the numbers so much as suggesting that your system' date=' which is interesting and inventive, gives very similar results to simply replacing the 3d6 with a d20.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure that the numbers work and that the balance is kept with my system. The trouble is getting over the learning curve...

[Fearghus]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

I'm pretty sure that the numbers work and that the balance is kept with my system. The trouble is getting over the learning curve...

 

Aside from many of the problems everone else posed with this system... I have a huge one.

 

I like to play speedsters alot, and so I am frequently attacking while making non-combat moves (0 OCV) Does that mean I can't even attempt the attack unless I have CSL to put into it? There are other situations when a characters combat penalties might rob him of ALL his beads... Does that just mean he automatically fails?

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

.....................

 

However, if we pretend that backwards compatibility is not important. . . .

 

What I'd like to see is something where each point of DEX gives +1 to your to hit, but rather than going with 3d6, I'd like to see a DC Heroes (open ended) 2d10 approach. ...................

 

 

It wasn't DC Heroes but it was a cyberpunk game I played had a similar mechanic. The first time I had to make a roll was for perception. I was basically normally sighted, but other members of the team had enhanced sight. I rolled a 52....

 

I'm not sure what I think about open ended rolls. On the one hand they allow for dramatic results, on th eother hand, well, they allow for dramatic results: a kid with a slingshot could take down Superman.

[Warp9]

Re: A Complete Overhaul of the Hero System Combat and Skill System

 

It wasn't DC Heroes but it was a cyberpunk game I played had a similar mechanic. The first time I had to make a roll was for perception. I was basically normally sighted, but other members of the team had enhanced sight. I rolled a 52....

 

I'm not sure what I think about open ended rolls. On the one hand they allow for dramatic results, on th eother hand, well, they allow for dramatic results: a kid with a slingshot could take down Superman.

Of course, in DC they did a lot to minimize the differences between power levels. What I've suggested goes in the opposite direction.

 

I've suggested setting things up so that every stat point gives you +1. In this situation there are basically 15 points difference in CVs between DEX 11 and DEX 26. That is a big difference. Yet this major difference is some what balanced out by the dramatic results possible with the open ended dice.