How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

[Doc Samson]

I am always striving to come up with something different with my characters (mostly superhero). I'll use Wolverine as an example of what I think was different, at least back when he was new. I think Wolverine was a brilliant idea when he was first introduced, from a character build standpoint. He was essentially designed to fight the Hulk (Brick) but instead of vast STR and massive Defenses, he has bladed attacks and Regeneration. I like to think of him as the anti-Brick (small with limited STR, fast and smart, but able to stand toe to toe with them).

 

So I recently returned to City of Heroes and while I was deciding what type of Defense Power Set I wanted for my new Tanker, it got me thinking. In CoH, the primary ways to mitigate damage can be summed up as Defense (high DCV in Hero), Resistance (PD, ED, Armor, FFs, ect.), and Regeneration (Healing and REC). My question is this, what are some other ways to mitigate damage that can built in Hero but not using those standard three? For example, could you build a viable character whose primary defense is Blocks and Missile Deflection? Please share your thoughts.

[tesuji]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

One i think is worth mentioning is, well, lotsa stun and body...

 

some of my best bricks have had higher body scores and low defenses but instead of spending say 20 cp for +10 defense resistant i bought +30 stun, or maybe +20 stun and some small amount of resistant def and some regen.

 

most of the time bricks contain moderately high stun and really high defenses which block/soak most of the damage but a high con and high stun total lets you take 32 damage and still just laugh about it.

 

also, many gms will object to tougher defenses a lot quicker than they will object to "can take more hits" since they still seem to be doing something when they hit and they dont have to jack up damage tallies a lot, crushing lesser guys, to even hurt you.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Yes, Blocking and Missile Deflection are my current faves with my shield-slinger.

 

There's also not getting hit: so high DCV, lots of dodging, diving for cover, etc.

 

Of course being Desolid....

[Sean Waters]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Tesuji mentioned lotsa stun and REC. You can manage that with damage reduction. DR, as I never tire of saying, is NOT a defence, it is a multiplier for CON, STUN, BODY and REC.

 

Block and MD is not really viable on their own because you can not do both within the rules, in a single phase. That SO needs changing.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Damage reduction works for me . You take damage most of the time but less than you seem like you should. Favorite special effect being for me that you LOOK like you took all the damage. Sort of a Die Hard/Indiana Jones thing.

[Alibear]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Block and MD is not really viable on their own because you can not do both within the rules, in a single phase. That SO needs changing.

 

I house ruled that years ago.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

One game we had three characters - each with a different take on damage mitigation.

 

1) The standard massively high defenses.

 

2) The impossible target - extremely high DCV, Speed and a few powers that confused which "target" was actually real. (Lots of Images in an area of the character)

 

3) Non-Target was the last, a vast amount of Invisibility effectively removed the character from the game board when it came time to determine targets.

[Ice9]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

You can block and missile deflect in the same phase, but not easily - buy the Missile Deflection Uncontrolled, Conditional on using Block. While Uncontrolled Missile Deflection is a dangerous thing, I don't think many GMs would object to using it this way.

 

Another possible defense is barriers. Get Indirect or BoECV powers, then use Force Wall or Entangle to surround yourself with a durable barrier. Or go the Tunnelling/N-Ray route, but that might be too cheesy.

 

Also, obfuscation - Invisibility, a Darkness area you can still see through, Images, or even Summoning a bunch of doppelgangers can reduce the enemy to hitting you a fraction of the time. Not perfect - enemies with the right senses can see through it - but what is?

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Yes, Invisibility. One of my all time favorite characters was invisible (Invisible Man style) and I got all the sneaky jobs. Didn't stick my neck out too often, but did go for the surprise shots and lots of mook sweeping (good GM who gave me stuff to do outside of the main battles). Fun.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

The other way to mitigate damage is to not get targetted in the first place.

 

If your PC looks like an innocent bystander and all your powers are indirect and/or IPE, then you can get away with having crummy defenses, a 3 DCV and lousy stats.

 

As long as you play your cards right. Play them wrong and you're in the hospital for a month.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

The other way to mitigate damage is to not get targetted in the first place.

 

If your PC looks like an innocent bystander and all your powers are indirect and/or IPE, then you can get away with having crummy defenses, a 3 DCV and lousy stats.

 

As long as you play your cards right. Play them wrong and you're in the hospital for a month.

 

We had a GM throw a baddie at us who was built a long these lines. He was the Face in the Crowd and it was tense trying to track him down. The blasters and bricks grew soooooo frustrated! Sneaky Pete for sure!

[BNakagawa]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Another variant on this is a ploy that has been used in movies before like V for Vendetta and the recent batman movie.

 

If you have a power that makes all innocent bystanders near you look like you, then you also avoid damage by forcing heroes (assuming they are in fact heroes and not costumed vigilantes) to sift through the throng carefully before they actually get to try to land blows on you.

 

This of course, also requires you to be subtle with power usage, etc.

[Doc Samson]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Good stuff you guys. This discussion already has new ideas spinning through my head. I'll try to summarize what we have so far.

 

#. SFX (Powers)

1. Resistance (PD and ED, Armor, or FF)

2. Defense (DCV)

3. Regeneration (Healing and REC)

4. Blocking (Block and Missile Deflection)

5. Toughness (CON, STUN, and BODY or Damage Reduction)

6. Barriers (Force Wall or Entangle)

7. Invisibility (Invisibility, Darkness, or Flash)

8. Misdirection (Images, Mental Illusions, or Shapeshift)

 

Though I realize they offer almost total mitigation, for purposes of this discussion I would like to omit what many might consider "unplayable" defenses. By unplayable I mean combinations we know and love, such as:

A. Mind Scan and Mental Attacks

B. Desolidification and Affects Physical World Attacks

C. Extra-Dimensional Movement and Transdimensional Attacks

D. Tunneling and Indirect Attacks

E. Increased Maximum Range and No Range Modifier Attacks

F. Any mixing and matching of the above

 

If I look just at game mechanics there are a few other types of powers that might loosely be considered defenses. In a campaign world where all powers were of one SFX (such as a magic, technology, or mutation), Dispel might be a passable defense. The biggest limiting factor, however, is that Dispel can't be used on Characteristics, meaning it couldn't be used to stop a simple strike or grab. Very loosely speaking, Duplication and Summoning could be defenses but only in that they provide more targets for attacks. You would still need one of the above defenses if you were targeted directly (which is bound to happen at some point). I'm not sure these two are worth including on our list as they can only really perform the job of a "primary" defense in limited circumstances.

[Houston GM]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

#. SFX (Powers)

1. Resistance (PD and ED, Armor, or FF)

2. Defense (DCV)

3. Regeneration (Healing and REC)

4. Blocking (Block and Missile Deflection)

5. Toughness (CON, STUN, and BODY or Damage Reduction)

6. Barriers (Force Wall or Entangle)

7. Invisibility (Invisibility, Darkness, or Flash)

8. Misdirection (Images, Mental Illusions, or Shapeshift)

 

Though I realize they offer almost total mitigation, for purposes of this discussion I would like to omit what many might consider "unplayable" defenses. By unplayable I mean combinations we know and love, such as:

A. Mind Scan and Mental Attacks

B. Desolidification and Affects Physical World Attacks

C. Extra-Dimensional Movement and Transdimensional Attacks

D. Tunneling and Indirect Attacks

E. Increased Maximum Range and No Range Modifier Attacks

F. Any mixing and matching of the above

 

9. Restraint (Grab, TK, Entangle, Force Wall)

10. Range + Movement (fight from 40" away)

11. Vehicles (the Vehicle takes the damage instead of the pilot)

12. Minions (Followers & Summons are sent into battle, master stays away)

13. Redirection (Mind Control opponent to attack another opponent, an ally with better mitigation, or do something other than attack)

14. Reduce number of attacks (Suppress or Drain SPD)

15. Opponent loses attack (CON stunned, PRE attack +30, characteristic Drained below 0)

16. Reduce OCV (Suppress or Drain DEX, Change Environment)

17. Reduce Damage (Suppress or Drain STR/EB/KA)

18. Damage (opponent unconscious)

19. Disarm (Disarm, Dispel Focus, break Focus)

20. Reduce movement on H2H opponents (Drain, Suppress, Change Environment)

 

G. Megascale Knockback or Throwing

H. Movement UAO (Tunneling, Flight, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Teleport)

I. Desolid UAO

[prestidigitator]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

On the reduced OCV front, an uncommon option is also Negative (Combat) Skill Levels.

 

Don't forget that Aid/Succor can temporarily boost many of the named defense possibilities. Consider for a moment the differences in how it affects Con and actual defenses (PD, ED, Defense Powers, etc.), vs. how if affects Body and Stun. Not a popular option, but it's there.

 

As for Missile Deflection (but not Reflection) I've always chosen to take LITERALLY that it allows the Block maneuver to be used on ranged attacks. Therefore you could Block a HTH strike, then Block an arrow at -2, then try to Block a Grab at -4. Separate maneuver my a**. (I've also allowed Naked Advantages to apply to HTH Blocks as if they were Missile Reflection at 2/3 the cost; i.e. without the Ranged advantage applied--kind of a hack, I know, but it feels right.)

[Doc Samson]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

9. Restraint (Grab, TK, Entangle, Force Wall)

10. Range + Movement (fight from 40" away)

11. Vehicles (the Vehicle takes the damage instead of the pilot)

12. Minions (Followers & Summons are sent into battle, master stays away)

13. Redirection (Mind Control opponent to attack another opponent, an ally with better mitigation, or do something other than attack)

14. Reduce number of attacks (Suppress or Drain SPD)

15. Opponent loses attack (CON stunned, PRE attack +30, characteristic Drained below 0)

16. Reduce OCV (Suppress or Drain DEX, Change Environment)

17. Reduce Damage (Suppress or Drain STR/EB/KA)

18. Damage (opponent unconscious)

19. Disarm (Disarm, Dispel Focus, break Focus)

20. Reduce movement on H2H opponents (Drain, Suppress, Change Environment)

 

G. Megascale Knockback or Throwing

H. Movement UAO (Tunneling, Flight, Extra-Dimensional Movement, Teleport)

I. Desolid UAO

I would say you are clearly a fan of the "sometimes the best defense is a good offense" philosophy.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

As for Missile Deflection (but not Reflection) I've always chosen to take LITERALLY that it allows the Block maneuver to be used on ranged attacks. Therefore you could Block a HTH strike' date=' then Block an arrow at -2, then try to Block a Grab at -4. Separate maneuver my a**. [/quote']

 

This makes perfect sense.

 

(I've also allowed Naked Advantages to apply to HTH Blocks as if they were Missile Reflection at 2/3 the cost; i.e. without the Ranged advantage applied--kind of a hack, I know, but it feels right.)

 

Care to elaborate on this some more? I don't think I entirely follow you.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Care to elaborate on this some more? I don't think I entirely follow you.

 

It goes like this (House Rule; I'm not trying to interpret the standard rules here, just for those who haven't been following the conversation and may not realize the context immediately):

 

Consider some Advantage you might put on Missile Deflection. If it would make reasonable sense that you could use that Advantage for non-ranged attacks, then you may buy it as a Naked Advantage that applies to a power of equivalent cost to 2/3 that of the equivalent Missile Deflection. You may now apply that Advantage when performing an ordinary Block on a HTH attack against you.

 

A Naked Advantage that is not intended to be used with a single (instance of a) Power may be used with either an ordinary Block against a HTH attack or with a Missile Deflection Block against a ranged attack (or both when applicable), provided it has been bought against an Active Point cost that is large enough to cover both.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

I don't think I've been getting enough sleep lately. Care to create an example power? I'm not sure why I would want to do this.

[Vorsch]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Absorbtion to stun

 

persistant aid to stun

[prestidigitator]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

I don't think I've been getting enough sleep lately. Care to create an example power? I'm not sure why I would want to do this.

 

Can't even remember if it's actually come up practically. But so I have ruled in my games for my peace of mind. I like consistency in this sort of thing.

 

Actually I take that back. I believe I've had a Triggered Block show up at some point.

[Doc Samson]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

I'm not sure any sane GM would allow a player do this, but I wanted to share my experience with one of our "unusual" defense types. I usually pile Damage Reduction over Resistant PD and ED on my Bricks, but for one particularly nasty character I gave him this instead:

 

0 END, Continous, Persistent Martial Block (see the Ultimate Martial Artist or use Hero Designer to properly calculate the cost) plus Persistent Missile Deflection.

 

I tweaked his skill levels so that his OCV with Block and MD were about equal to the average OCV of the villains we were fighting, giving him roughly a 50% Block/ MD chance (on the first attack of a Phase). I got to play this character in a one-shot game and I must say, despite the extra rolling, it worked out pretty well IMHO. I kept his normal defenses low enough that whether I blocked or not felt pretty dramatic. As it was my primary defense, getting attacked multiple times in the same phase was nerve wracking (as each consecutive Block/ MD became more difficult due to the cumulative -2 penalty for multiple Blocks/ MDs). It was alot of fun and different from what I was used to, YMMV.

 

[edit] Other tidbits:

The character rolled over (pun intended) low OCV minions, though if they focused fire on him he would get hurt. He didn't do so well against high OCV boss types for a "Brick".

 

There was a bit of a debate as to what the proper Advantages to use were. The contenders were; Persistent, Uncontrolled, Trigger, and Damage Shield. We decided to go with Persistent for Missile Deflection because Uncontrolled for MD as described in 5ER seemed kind of wonky. We decided to go with 0 END, Continuous, and Persistent for Martial Block because (as above) Uncontrolled seemed wonky and a Damage Shield didn't make sense as Blocking after you were hit means that it would only Block attacks after the first. [side note: Naked Advantages are Instant (and Cost END) which means you need to first take Continuous to take Uncontrolled or Damage Shield on a Maneuver; and Persistent, on an Instant power that requires an action to use, doesn't do anything without Continuous.] We didn't go with Trigger because we didn't think it would work against attacks the character couldn't perceive.

[Ganesh]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

DocSamson: sounds like, conceptually, you're taking about a character with turn-by-turn "ablative DCV." That's a neat concept, especially as it makes him weaker to lots of people piling on attacks, and I think defenses that are weak to a commonly-available but esoteric attack strategy are neat.

 

 

 

On a more metal level, I tend to think of defenses/damage mitigation as falling into six broad catagories, only one of which hasn't been mentioned so far:

 

First, Be Tough. This is where more Stun, PD, ED, and DR come in. This is notable for having a pretty steady effect; increasing the damage being thrown at you results in you going down predictably faster. The "offensive" version of this is doing thing to reduce your enemy's damage output. In hero, this tends to be divided into things that prevent constant amounts of damage per attack (PD, ED, etc.) and those that straight-up increase your capacity for damage (DR, more stun, con, and bod, etc.).

 

Second, Make Fewer Attacks Land. This is often accomplished through DCV, block, missile deflection, and the like. Offensively, you can reduce the opponent's OCV or try to stun them so they lose attacks. Defenses of this type are probabalistic: if this is your soul defense, then you're at the mercy of the dice. You might go on forever, or the opponent might get lucky and you're out in the first punch.

 

Third, Be Untargetable. Desolid, Invisible/Images/Shapeshift, various Mind Control powers, and putting things between you and the attacker (like a forcewall or a vehicle) are good examples in hero. These generally are negated by opponents with the specific workaround, i.e. "affects desolid," extra targeting senses, resistance to mind control, or "indirect" attacks. Sometimes they can be defeated by cleverness -- there's always a loophole in Desolid, for example, and poorly-worded Mind Control can leave some attack options open while eliminating others. Some of these powers also can be used UAO for "spot" defenses -- that guy you just desolided won't be able to target anyone until it wears off.

 

Fourth, although it's sort of similar to the above, is to Be Far Away. If your attacks have better distance and your speed is better, you can outmaneuver him. It's defeated by enemies having ranged attacks and more movement than you do. Things that slow down your opponent, root him to the spot, or reduce his range also fall in this category, as do things that launch him across the battlefield.

 

Fifth, Healing. Regeneration slants long combats towards to regenerator (so it's best to make combat fast if you're fighting one), and there's a reason that FPS and tactical games come with the advice to shoot the healer first.

 

Sixth, and probably conceptually the weirdest, is to do something to limit the maximum damage you can take from a single attack. The "easiest" way to do this in Hero is probably with lots of Duplication or Followers -- if a hundred instances of Multiple Man are fighting the Hulk, it doesn't matter that Hulk can one-shot KO any one of them -- it'll take him a hundred attacks. Going for multiple hit effects is the way to go against this. Other instances of this sort of weirdness include triggered healing set up to leave you doing the Chubawumba (I get knocked down but I get up again, I get up again, I get up again...) or, I don't know, an instant absolute defense that does damage to you every time you use it? Some games have this as a feature of tanks: some kind of Last Stand or Stand Tough power, useful near the end, that will keep you alive through one onslaught, even if it leaves you with only one hitpoint.

 

 

That's not counting the notion that a good offense is the best defense, since "end the fight faster" isn't exactly damage mitigation in the same sense.

 

So, to summarize:

 

Be Tough; predicable solid defenses, only beat by More Damage or the occasional "armor piercing" effect.

 

Don't Get Hit, which is a random hit prevention. This can go well or poorly depending on the dice.

 

Be Untargetable, which has many specific subtechniques. Each is defeated with a specific tactic, or through outclevering your opponent.

 

Be Far Away, or the Maneuvering defense. Loses to being outmaneuvered.

 

Healing, which is defeatable mostly by trying to prevent the circumstances that allow healing (by kacking/dispelling/suppressing the healer, or not giving the regenerator the time he needs).

 

and Damage Caps, where you prevent your opponent from being able to do more than a certain amount of damage per attack or per round, and is sort of the opposite of Be Tough.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

Ganesh: I like the breakdown. Repped.

[Doc Samson]

Re: How many different ways to mitigate damage? <boredom caution: metagaming be here>

 

This is an edited summary of what we discussed.

 

[b][u]Primary Defenses: SFX (Powers)[/u][/b]

1. Resistance (PD and ED, Armor, or FF)
2. Defense (DCV and Dodging)
3. Regeneration (Healing and REC)
4. Blocking (Block and Missile Deflection)
5. Toughness (CON, STUN, and BODY or Damage Reduction)
6. Barriers (Force Wall or Entangle)

[b][u]Secondary Defenses: SFX (Powers)[/u][/b]

7. Invisibility (Invisibility, Darkness, or Flash)
8. Misdirection (Images, Mental Illusions, or Shapeshift)
9. Delegation (Duplication, Summon, Followers)
10. Debuffing (Adjustment Powers, Dispel, Negative Skill Levels)

[b][u]Total Defenses[/u][/b]

A. Mind Scan and Mental Attacks
B. Desolidification and Affects Physical World Attacks
C. Extra-Dimensional Movement and Transdimensional Attacks
D. Tunneling and Indirect Attacks
E. Increased Maximum Range and No Range Modifier Attacks
F. Any mixing and matching of the above