grab and OAF

[secretID]

The rules say that a grab usually prevents the use of an OAF, but there's discretion. I have some general question, but I'll present the immediate specific case: giant snake wrapped around guy with Mjolnir, restraining both arms.

 

He certainly can't swing the hammer. For a lightning RKA, I said he could zap himself and the snake simultaneously - why not? But what about flight? We could say that depends on the special effect, but that's never really been specified, and besides, all of this seems to be getting too far into special effects. If you couldn't use a gun, why should you be able to use any other OAF, for any purpose? Since this is a big part of the OAF lim, it seems wrong to have so much dependent upon special effect.

 

What do y'all do?

 

Thanks.

[pinecone]

Re: grab and OAF

 

I'm a big SFX type myself...though "drama" is the trump card...

[samarkand]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Hello all,

 

I'm the player in question.

 

Yep, Mjolnir is an OAF. My take on it is that being grabbed/entangled doesn't necessarily prevent you from using an OAF.

 

For instance, if gun boy is entangled by chain lad, then gun boy can still fire his gun (as his trigger finger is not entangled), but he probably can't wave the gun around and aim. Of course, ice girl freezing him in a solid block of ice would prevent him from pulling the trigger.

 

Note: the creatures in question (giant snakes) are not attempting to disarm my character, just moosh and bit him.

 

The special effect on the hammer is that it gives the bearer the power to manipulate the weather (to fire lightning bolts, command the winds, etc.) The wind riding is that the bearer commands the winds to pick him up and carry him around.

 

If I was GM, my ruling on it would probably be that you still need to point the hammer in the direction you want to go so he could be stuck with that.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Well, besides sfx, it also depends on the mechanics of the abilities built with the OAF Limitation.

 

HA and HKA usually can't be used (unless they also have the Damage Shield Advantage) since they usually require 'free' STR to use effectively.

 

Energy Blast and RKA (and other traditionally ranged attacks) are a little more problematic. I would allow them to be used if they had one of the following advantages:

Damage Shield (vs. the grabber)

AOE (The character may still have some minuses to hit a particular target hex)

Indirect at the +1/2 level or higher which allows the attacks to originate from anywhere on the body.

 

Who or what the grabbed character is actually trying to attack makes a difference as well (attacking the grabber or attacking another target of opportunity).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Hello all,

 

I'm the player in question.

 

Yep, Mjolnir is an OAF. My take on it is that being grabbed/entangled doesn't necessarily prevent you from using an OAF.

 

For instance, if gun boy is entangled by chain lad, then gun boy can still fire his gun (as his trigger finger is not entangled), but he probably can't wave the gun around and aim. Of course, ice girl freezing him in a solid block of ice would prevent him from pulling the trigger.

 

Note: the creatures in question (giant snakes) are not attempting to disarm my character, just moosh and bit him.

 

The special effect on the hammer is that it gives the bearer the power to manipulate the weather (to fire lightning bolts, command the winds, etc.) The wind riding is that the bearer commands the winds to pick him up and carry him around.

 

If I was GM, my ruling on it would probably be that you still need to point the hammer in the direction you want to go so he could be stuck with that.

 

The real deciding factor IMO is whether the ability to fire lightning bolts is built with the Indirect Advantage (@ the +1/2 or +3/4 level). If it's not then the character can't really choose his target when grabbed if the source of the lightning is the OAF hammer (in this case not any different than an OAF gun).

 

If the hammer is built as a multipower but doesn't currently have an Indirect Advantaged lightning slot I might allow the use of the Power Skill to do this once.

[pinecone]

Re: grab and OAF

 

I usually build the lightning bolt as Indirect+1/4 (always down from sky) so I'd have no issue with calling some down while grabbed (though accuracy would take a hit I'd think...)

[secretID]

Re: grab and OAF

 

The wind riding is that the bearer commands the winds to pick him up and carry him around.

Right - I forgot that it was specified. It seems silly not to allow the flight, then. I just always worry when special effects rule.

[Doc Samson]

Re: grab and OAF

 

My humble opinion as a long time GM...

 

OAF is a pretty big limitation at -1. You are halving the cost of any powers bought through the hammer. The rules for Grab (and Entangle) are pretty clear in regards to OAFs. If you want to be able to use some of the powers while Grabbed (or Entangled) imho the limitation should be reduced to an OIF.

[Sean Waters]

Re: grab and OAF

 

OAF is a pretty big limitation - although it also includes (in many cases) UBO for free - as do most focus 'limitations'. In theory it should mean that the powers have their utility approximately HALVED i.e. they are not available about half the time. I'm willing to bet that most regular OAF users would be mightily hacked off if they could not use their focus powers every other combat, but THAT is what you get the cost break for.

 

It is also important to note that there are diminishing returns on increasing focus 'cost' - for a 60 point power:

 

Lim: Cost: Saving

-1/4: 48: 12

-1/2: 40: 8

-3/4: 34: 6

-1 : 30: 4

 

As you can see each additional -1/4 saves you fewer points, whereas advantages have equal spacing. Just an interesting point of note.

 

The rules say that you can not generally use an OAF when grabbed or entangled.

 

I'd recommend that you buy the Hammer as an OIF, especially if you are so strong that grabbing it off you is unlikely and that would allow you to use the focus when entangled or grabbed. If the focus is indestructible so that it can not be damaged by targeted attacks in combat then you really are getting that last -1/2 for free, or practically.

 

With negotiation you might squeak a -3/4 limitation - somewhere between OIF and OAF for an item that can be taken away from you in combat BUT, unless it is actually taken away, you can still use without restriction.

 

Overhauling 'focus' is one of my back burner projects, I'm sure you'll all be delighted to hear.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: grab and OAF

 

OAF is a pretty big limitation - although it also includes (in many cases) UBO for free - as do most focus 'limitations'.

 

It's either universal or it's not. UBO means I decide when you can use the power. Universal Focus means anyone who takes it can use it. To me, the ability to hand it to my friend is offset by the fact my opponent can use it against me.

 

In theory it should mean that the powers have their utility approximately HALVED i.e. they are not available about half the time. I'm willing to bet that most regular OAF users would be mightily hacked off if they could not use their focus powers every other combat' date=' but THAT is what you get the cost break for.[/quote']

 

OIF + Restrainable = OAF. I agree that, if you want the ability to use the power when restrained, buying it as OIF is a logical approach. But I also like the idea of revisiting the Focus limitation to assess its connection to Restrainability. Maybe we start with "power can be taken away - +1/4" and work up by adding obviousness of the focus, accessibility, restrainability, etc.

 

More 6e crossposting...

[tesuji]

Re: grab and OAF

 

if it were me...

 

If you take the full OAF then i call it a "no you cannot use while entangled" regardless of sfx. you bought the lim you take the problem.

 

HOWEVER you can buy it with lesser lim on some powers to reflect their ungrabbale nature.

 

So your lightning might take OAF and be unavailable when entangled.

 

your flight might be half that at -1/2 or maybe -3/4 if they dont suffer the usual lims.

 

o it is up to you.

 

how you buy it, what lims you take, determines what it can do.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Whether the player designed Mjolnir as an OAF is one thing. But IMO, Mjolnir should not be bought as a focus at all. Perhaps Restrainable alone, if anything.

 

That being said, if I were GMing this scenario, I would say that if someone Grabbed the character with the OAF, then it's not usable. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, i.e. you get the point savings, you take the restrictions.

 

If you NEED to save the points, then pick between an OIF and Restrainable. Again, since Thor can't ever really have the hammer taken from him, Focus seems right out.

[Doc Samson]

Re: grab and OAF

 

It's either universal or it's not. UBO means I decide when you can use the power. Universal Focus means anyone who takes it can use it. To me, the ability to hand it to my friend is offset by the fact my opponent can use it against me.

 

 

 

OIF + Restrainable = OAF. I agree that, if you want the ability to use the power when restrained, buying it as OIF is a logical approach. But I also like the idea of revisiting the Focus limitation to assess its connection to Restrainability. Maybe we start with "power can be taken away - +1/4" and work up by adding obviousness of the focus, accessibility, restrainability, etc.

 

More 6e crossposting...

This is an interesting point. To expand on it, there are 4 lims that cannot readily be taken in conjunction with focus (because they overlap). They are Restrainable, OIHID, Physical Manifestation, and Visible. We have always looked at focus as a combination of these limitations. For example:

 

IIF = OIHID

IAF = Restrainable

OIF = Visible + OIHID

OAF = OIHID, Visible, Restrainable

Breakable (Fragile) = Physical Manifestation

 

As Sean pointed out, there is no -3/4 level for the base focus lim, but perhaps there should be. I would probably build it like so:

OIHID + Visible + Restrainable at the -1/4 level (can only be disabled by Disarms and the like).

[ghost-angel]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Special Effect, Circumstances, GM Discretion, and just plain What Will Be Cool are the factors I take in when deciding on OAF and Grab or similar situations.

 

I don't need hard and fast rules on every minute detail telling me how to have fun.

[Sean Waters]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Special Effect, Circumstances, GM Discretion, and just plain What Will Be Cool are the factors I take in when deciding on OAF and Grab or similar situations.

 

I don't need hard and fast rules on every minute detail telling me how to have fun.

 

The hard and fast rules are for character building. In play, whatever best enhances enjoyment goes. Mind you you get two characters who have OAFs and both get entangled. One flies off and cuts themsef loose using OAF powers, the other just sits there, there is going to be resentment, and quite right too. Resentment is not enjoyable.

[ghost-angel]

Re: grab and OAF

 

The hard and fast rules are for character building. In play' date=' whatever best enhances enjoyment goes. Mind you you get two characters who have OAFs and both get entangled. One flies off and cuts themsef loose using OAF powers, the other just sits there, there is going to be resentment, and quite right too. Resentment is not enjoyable.[/quote']

 

Maybe. If an OAF is useful in one situation, and not in another... all depends on the larger picture.

 

Not all OAFs act the exact same in every situation. It'd be a disservice to the system.

 

If one OAF is a gun and one OAF is a tiara why should they act the same if your arms are pinned?

[Utech]

Re: grab and OAF

 

If one OAF is a gun and one OAF is a tiara why should they act the same if your arms are pinned?

They shouldn't. But they should be equally accessible.

 

If a player chooses a tiara as a focus just to avoid trouble with standard grabs, they probably should have gone with an OIF.

 

If (as I hope would be the case) they went with the tiara because it was character appropriate and there is some reasonably common Maneuver that prevents use of the focus, the OAF is certainly warranted.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Assuming that the typical ability purchased through a tiara is either a EB or RKA, isn't it reasonable to define it with the OAF Limitation and the Range Based On STR Limitation (the latter being the main difference between it and an OAF Handgun that still has charges/bullets)?

 

It's not just a 'naked' sfx difference.

It's actual HERO mechanics that are different.

[rjcurrie]

Re: grab and OAF

 

The hard and fast rules are for character building. In play' date=' whatever best enhances enjoyment goes. Mind you you get two characters who have OAFs and both get entangled. One flies off and cuts themsef loose using OAF powers, the other just sits there, there is going to be resentment, and quite right too. Resentment is not enjoyable.[/quote']

 

There MIGHT BE resentment. It's going to depend on the players involved. Some players are actually mature enough to accept that the SFX of another player's powers makes them usable in situations where their own similars powers are not.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: grab and OAF

 

There MIGHT BE resentment. It's going to depend on the players involved. Some players are actually mature enough to accept that the SFX of another player's powers makes them usable in situations where their own similars powers are not.

 

There is an inequity which may cause justifiable resentment if both characters pay the same points for their abilities, but one gets more frequent/less restricted access to their abilities. If the character whose OAF still works when Grabbed is disadvantaged in some other way not shared by the character whose OAF can't function when grabbed, such that they're both able to use (and denied use of) their OAF powers with equal frequency and impact, there should be no cause for concern.

[ghost-angel]

Re: grab and OAF

 

It doesn't matter what Powers are in the Tiara - if it's a mind activated Mind Control that is easy to remove from the Character (Accessible) and glow brightly when in use with a beam connecting the wearer to the target (Obvious) then it's OAF. And there's no reason that your arms being pinned prevents its use.

 

As Hugh said, you just need to make sure in your campaign that the Tiara User is disadvantaged as equally often ad the Gun User - how is irrelevant.

 

The whole OAF/Grab clause in the book bothers me greatly because it's an arbitrary ruling that downplays SFX in a system where SFX should be played up.

[Doc Samson]

Re: grab and OAF

 

It doesn't matter what Powers are in the Tiara - if it's a mind activated Mind Control that is easy to remove from the Character (Accessible) and glow brightly when in use with a beam connecting the wearer to the target (Obvious) then it's OAF. And there's no reason that your arms being pinned prevents its use.

 

As Hugh said, you just need to make sure in your campaign that the Tiara User is disadvantaged as equally often ad the Gun User - how is irrelevant.

 

The whole OAF/Grab clause in the book bothers me greatly because it's an arbitrary ruling that downplays SFX in a system where SFX should be played up.

Sounds like another job for -3/4 Focus Man! OIHID + Visible + Restrainable at the -1/4 level (can only be disabled by Disarms and the like), should do the trick!

[ghost-angel]

Re: grab and OAF

 

sigh.

 

No.

 

OAF is perfectly acceptable, OAF Tiara and OAF Gun can both be worth -1 without ever interacting with the Grab Maneuver.

It's quite simply a BS Ruling.

 

 

Look at the Source Of Power section - a grab could very well prevent a Character from using an UnLimited Power that is Sourced as their Hands properly! It's SFX that matter more than mechanics here.

[Doc Samson]

Re: grab and OAF

 

As Hugh said' date=' you just need to make sure in your campaign that the Tiara User is disadvantaged as equally often ad the Gun User - how is irrelevant.[/quote']

For the sake of friendly discussion, how would you disadvantage the Tiara such that it would be equally disadvantaged as the Gun?

[ghost-angel]

Re: grab and OAF

 

Here's a question - that sort of proves that the whole Grab/OAF ruling is just stupid.

 

Grab states it immobilizes two limbs. most of the time we assume arms on a humanoid. But when you get right down to it. . . that's not true.

 

Grab: Legs.

 

Are you telling me that because a Mechanical Rule says OAF can't be used while Grabbed that a man holding my legs prevents me from using my Gun? My skateboard sure! but not my gun.

 

Special Effects Interaction Is Important.