Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

[rauer]

Greetings!

 

Disclaimer: My copy of the rulebook has been missing long enough that I think it really is lost, so while I am sure this answer is in the rules I no longer have a copy to check. So, I know there is a way to stack these abilities from reading elsewhere on this board but I do not know the details.

 

Question: As the title suggests, I am fiddling with a character who will use strength and HA together. I want to check my intuition on how this works (since I can't check the book). Let's say I have a 20 strength and start from there.

 

Example 1 - I buy a 2D6 HA, 0 END (+1/2). Intuition says I stack to 6D6 and pay END only on my 20 strength.

 

Example 2 - I buy a 2D6 HA, Armor Piercing (+1/2). I am sure I cannot stack to 6D6 AP as that seems abusive, so intuition says I can add from STR as many dice as the HA has and no more, which in this case results in 4D6 AP (2D6 from the HA and 2D6 from STR).

 

While that seems correct, does anyone happen to know what the rules are for this situation?

 

Thanks in advance

[Split Decision]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

See G-A's answer

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

If you stack STR with an Advantanged Hand Attack the STR prorates it's active points and you can no more than Double the HA.

 

2D HA with 0END can be coupled with 15 STR for a total of 4D6 0 END Damage.

[rauer]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

I see. So let's say my STR is 30 and I purchase a 4D6 HA with 0 END. Combined that would be an 8D6 0 END attack. If I had a 45 STR then it would still combine to an 8D6 0 END attack (or, of course, 9D6 at normal END using only the STR and not the HA power).

 

Thank you.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

You got it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

...

Let's say I have a 20 strength and start from there.

 

Example 1 - I buy a 2D6 HA, 0 END (+1/2). Intuition says I stack to 6D6 and pay END only on my 20 strength.

 

Example 2 - I buy a 2D6 HA, Armor Piercing (+1/2). I am sure I cannot stack to 6D6 AP as that seems abusive, so intuition says I can add from STR as many dice as the HA has and no more, which in this case results in 4D6 AP (2D6 from the HA and 2D6 from STR).

 

While that seems correct, does anyone happen to know what the rules are for this situation?

 

Thanks in advance

 

1. Correct

2. Correct

 

Basically an Advantaged HA can be combined with STR up to the same active points of the base un-advantaged HA and keep the Advantages (Reduced END is the lone exception).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

If you stack STR with an Advantanged Hand Attack the STR prorates it's active points and you can no more than Double the HA.

 

2D HA with 0END can be coupled with 15 STR for a total of 4D6 0 END Damage.

 

Adding damage is a difficult area, but I thought that you did not pro-rate STR when adding to HAs, so long as you do not add more damage than the base HA damage: so if you have 20 STR and a 3d6 AP HA you can either do a 7d6 HA or a 6d6 AP HA. You DEFINITELY pro-rate when adding STR to HKAs though (I think )

 

Also I have a vague feeling that 0 END doesn't transfer to strength like other advantages but I'm without reference materials at the moment so I may be completely wrong.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

I don't believe you pro rate STR, so you would use 10 STR to add 2d6 to the HA. 5er p 408 refers to using STR equal to the unmodified AP value of the HA - without applying advantages. An example clarifies this - a character with a 3d6 AP HA and 15 STR would do 6d6 AP with the HA.

 

Another issue here - I thought the same character with a 25 STR could use the HA and 15 STR to do 8d6 normal damage, but p 408 says the advantage must be used, so if you use more than 15 STR, you can't use the HA at all.

 

5er lists a sole exception, IPE, which must be on both STR and HA to work. I'd allow an exception of 0 END - to me, it affects the HA, but not STR, but would not prevent adding more STR than the HA AP.

 

I'm not convinced this is how the rules should work, but that's another topic.

[JmOz]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

Adding damage is a difficult area, but I thought that you did not pro-rate STR when adding to HAs, so long as you do not add more damage than the base HA damage: so if you have 20 STR and a 3d6 AP HA you can either do a 7d6 HA or a 6d6 AP HA. You DEFINITELY pro-rate when adding STR to HKAs though (I think )

 

Also I have a vague feeling that 0 END doesn't transfer to strength like other advantages but I'm without reference materials at the moment so I may be completely wrong.

 

Unless it was changed in 5th revised, then I think you are correct, however I am not sure you get to choose, I thought that if it was advantaged you had could only double it...but I could be wrong

 

as for the 0end, you are right, it is actualy non combat advantages that do not add (no real clear definition on that one, but 0 end is given as an example IIRC)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

Ah, yeah. my bad - no prorating STR. Just can't add more STR than HA Damage when HA are Advantaged.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

Ah' date=' yeah. my bad - no prorating STR. Just can't add more STR than HA Damage when HA are Advantaged.[/quote']

 

Ahem. So many clauses and paragraphs. Please also check the FAQ for corner cases.

 

The way 5ER describes this particular case is as follows. It has a section specifically about Str and Advantaged HAs (see 5ER p. 408; EDIT: I guess in both heroic and superheroic games; see the Rules Questions thread I link to below). It makes no exceptions for "Advantages that Directly Affect How a Victim Takes Damage" (see sidebar on 5ER p. 404) though I think that would make sense and maybe there is a FAQ answer about this one or something. The Str automatically gets the effects of the HA's Advantages, but you can only use as much Str as are in the Base Points ("unmodified Active Points" in the HA, which just sounds like Base Points to me!). You cannot use the HA at all if you use more Str than is in the advantaged HA. I believe this has higher precedence than the section on 5ER p. 405 that says HA adds to the Base Damage of the attack for purposes of doubling its overall damage. Heh.

 

Wow! I just realized this. There's a little paragraph at the beginning of 5ER p. 408 (end of the "Combat Skill Levels, Haymakers, and Martial Maneuvers" section from the previous page). It says that Str adding to the damage of a weapon in a heroic game is not affected at all by Advantages on the powers in the weapon. Huh. Guess the weapon tables at the back of the book kinda ignored that rule. Maybe they just weren't updated to reflect that change or something? EDIT: Ah. Okay. It's all good. Apparently there's errata that removes that text. Haven't found the errata yet, but there's a Rules Questions board thread that refers to it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

Er, I think that's what I was agreeing with.

 

The damage adding rules are so convoluted that I'm not actually sure though.

 

The weapon tables -a s far as I can tell, take that into account. Mostly, because they don't concern themselves with the STR of a Character that would be adding to them.

 

The whole section on damage needs to be deleted and rewritten from scratch.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

Amen to that. I was reading that section this morning, and rather than having a clearer understanding now I just have a headache in addition to the confusion.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stacking Strength and Hand-to-Hand Attack

 

The weapon tables -a s far as I can tell' date=' take that into account. Mostly, because they don't concern themselves with the STR of a Character that would be adding to them.[/quote']

 

They list how much Str over the Str Min you need to add a DC on the ones that have Advantages (e.g. Armor Piercing for picks). They are correct supposedly because that little statement at the top left of 5ER p. 408 is incorrect I guess. But I've posted a question for Steve Long about it, since I couldn't actually find the errata he referred to.