Muskateer

[mayapuppies]

Ok, further along into my Renaissance society and I need a clarification and some ideas. As always these are likely going to find their way into one of my books, so if you don't want that, please don't post your ideas.

 

So, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a Muskateer was originally just a soldier that used muskets, like an Archer uses a bow, rather than a swashbuckling primarily rapier using hero of renown, yes?

 

If so, what would be the typical skillset of one such Muskateer? I want to make sure that I cover the basics so as many suggestions/ideas that I can get the better.

[Alibear]

Re: Muskateer

 

Erm, musketeer. Have you read The Three Musketeers?

 

Perhaps works on the English Civil War might inspire you?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Muskateer

 

Heh, yeah, bad spelling...sheesh. You'd think I'd know better.

 

Thanks for the tip, this is an era that I've never been that interested in so I never gathered any resources for it (too advanced technology for my taste). So English Civil War it is.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Muskateer

 

. . . Didn't the original Three Musketeers take place before the Civil War? I seem to recall them trying to rescue Charles in a sequel . . .

[Ragnarok]

Re: Muskateer

 

Well, I know that musketeers knew how to use swords, but the vast majority didn't know how to use them very well. Probably just basic hack and slash if the enemy got too close.

 

I would give them tactics or teamwork, considering that musketeers were most often used in formation, often with pikemen.

 

I would also give them some aspect of survival, enough at least to use for foraging off the countryside and keeping alive.

 

Perhaps some very basic form of martial arts, something more brawling and brutal than anything elegant and graceful. Punching, wrestling, disarming, clubbing with musket butts, stabbing with bayonets, etc.

 

Hope those are helpful.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Muskateer

 

Depends on how you want to use Black Powder weapons.

 

I assume you've come across Spence's and Captain Obvious's ideas on the subject?

Blackpowder Guideline

 

But aside from that complicated issue you have the usual soldierly abilities, marching, cooking, sewing, making camp. It's not actually that different than Scouts, Cubs etc. But less fun and with more shouting.

 

You can of course throw all that together under the title PS: Soldier.

 

As Ragnarok noted. Survival: Countryside is a good skill. This covers everything from making a fire to stealing chickens from farms that you pass on the march.

 

Concealment is a possibility. Good for hiding from enemy soldiers, allied officers and other dangers to life and limb. And it's also useful for hiding booze, looted valuables etc.

 

Gambling won't help you when the lead is flying but will make the rest of the time pass more easily.

 

As for CSLs. If you are going to use anything near realistic rules for muskets but still want a Musketeer to be dangerous in personal combat then they should focus on PSLs with their muskets.

 

CSLs with bayonets are also a good idea for the classic Napoleonic era Musketeer. An earlier Arquebusier is more likely to have blocks of pikemen backing him up and so less likely to need his own pointy device - enemy, for killing of.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Muskateer

 

Awesome resource Shadowsoul. Thanks

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Muskateer

 

IIRC there is a brawling variant of Boxes francais Savat called Boxes francais Soldat (Boxing soldier) that could be useful for groups.

 

i advocate buying basic Stealth, Shadowing And Concealment for any adventurer. it gives the players something to do other than charge in blindly.

[Markdoc]

Re: Muskateer

 

It depends on whether you want musketeers á la Dumas or just guys with muskets (shot). The three musketeers were members of the King's Guard, hence not actually musketmen but what we would call dragoons or carabiners - light horsemen who fought on foot or on horse. Basically they were elite fast troops. The "musketeer" part came because the Kings' Guard carried heavier but longer-ranged and more accurate muskets instead of the light carbines carried by regular dragoons.

 

So .... if that's what you had in mind then the characters should have the nobility package, good sword skills, riding, and good musket-handling skills. Things like PS: soldier or PS: Forager, or Tactics would not be out of place, but should not be required.

 

If the poor sod with a musket was what you had in mind, then PS: Musketeer (or PS: soldier + 1 CSL in musket) is probably all you need, with levels and extra skills added to taste. The degree of training for such soldiers varied widely.

 

Muskets, of course, are not very renaissance, however. If instead you mean arquebuses, the situation changes slightly. Arquebuses are too heavy and cumbersome for mounted troops to use - they didn't take to firearms until the invention of the wheelock pistol. That meant renaissance-era gunners were footmen - and thus, only rarely gentry. Also arquebuses are more difficult to use effectively, and gun-making was a rare skill back then, so guns were expensive and most gunners thus tended to be professional soldiers. In that case, a bigger skillset would be appropriate including PS: soldier, PS: forager (or survival), weaponsmith:arquebus, maybe streetwise, etc.

 

Note that I've added weaponsmith since arquebusiers were specialists who had to maintain their own weapon. If it broke, it wasn't like you could just get one from the commissiary.

 

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Re: Muskateer

 

Thanks guys, more good information. The situation is very anachronistic and the art of making firearms is a closely guarded secret by a powerful and secretive guild.

 

Anyone who reverse engineers a gun invariably disappears. Wheelocks are the gun of the day and they are very expensive, very rare works of art. So only wealthy nobles have them.

 

I'm going to make them a tad more accurate than in reality for gameplay purposes and to actually help explain away the lack of massed formations of rifleman/musketmen (heh).

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Muskateer

 

You could simply make them rifled.

 

Rifles were around for some time before being taken up by most armies. They were just an unusual and expensive weapon. Which makes them ideal for your setting.

 

Incidentally if guns are made by a guild then there's always the possibility of wacky new inventions such as the Lorenzoni Repeater, Duckfoot Pistol and Axe-Gun. All are historical weapons though not, admittedly, wheel-locks.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Muskateer

 

You could simply make them rifled.

 

Rifles were around for some time before being taken up by most armies. They were just an unusual and expensive weapon. Which makes them ideal for your setting.

 

Incidentally if guns are made by a guild then there's always the possibility of wacky new inventions such as the Lorenzoni Repeater, Duckfoot Pistol and Axe-Gun. All are historical weapons though not, admittedly, wheel-locks.

I may have to think about this possibility as well.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Muskateer

 

It depends on whether you want musketeers á la Dumas or just guys with muskets (shot). The three musketeers were members of the King's Guard, hence not actually musketmen but what we would call dragoons or carabiners - light horsemen who fought on foot or on horse. Basically they were elite fast troops. The "musketeer" part came because the Kings' Guard carried heavier but longer-ranged and more accurate muskets instead of the light carbines carried by regular dragoons.

 

So .... if that's what you had in mind then the characters should have the nobility package, good sword skills, riding, and good musket-handling skills. Things like PS: soldier or PS: Forager, or Tactics would not be out of place, but should not be required.

 

If the poor sod with a musket was what you had in mind, then PS: Musketeer (or PS: soldier + 1 CSL in musket) is probably all you need, with levels and extra skills added to taste. The degree of training for such soldiers varied widely.

 

Muskets, of course, are not very renaissance, however. If instead you mean arquebuses, the situation changes slightly. Arquebuses are too heavy and cumbersome for mounted troops to use - they didn't take to firearms until the invention of the wheelock pistol. That meant renaissance-era gunners were footmen - and thus, only rarely gentry. Also arquebuses are more difficult to use effectively, and gun-making was a rare skill back then, so guns were expensive and most gunners thus tended to be professional soldiers. In that case, a bigger skillset would be appropriate including PS: soldier, PS: forager (or survival), weaponsmith:arquebus, maybe streetwise, etc.

 

Note that I've added weaponsmith since arquebusiers were specialists who had to maintain their own weapon. If it broke, it wasn't like you could just get one from the commissiary.

 

cheers, Mark

I'd beg to quibble only only a touch,

otherwise I'd just point and say "What he said".

 

My $.02

 

Muskets are mentioned quite thoroughly in Renaissance Military treatises, but they filled a different role, as essentially light support weapons. Muskets are listed on a lot of period ordinance roles, and they follow the ordinance naming conventions (mousquette being a male sparrowhawk, smaller even than a falconette), and there was a fair bit of dispute as to the value of firepower versus encumbrance. The Spanish army favored 25 Muskets per 100 Shot, but its totally up to the commanders preferences. The English seemed to go from around 12% to 30%. The balance would be Arquebusiers or calivermen. I hadn't seen anyone mention my beloved caliver yet, so I had to chime in.

Let me put it this way... in Ren terms what we call a rifle today would be a rifled Caliver. It's the medium shoulder arm, less mobile and skirmishable than an arquebus (which was more carbine sized), but with close to twice the range and a lot more point and blank stopping power. Muskets were there to kill officers, provide counter-battery fire, and to knock big, honking holes through armored targets.

 

Thanks guys, more good information. The situation is very anachronistic and the art of making firearms is a closely guarded secret by a powerful and secretive guild.

 

Anyone who reverse engineers a gun invariably disappears. Wheelocks are the gun of the day and they are very expensive, very rare works of art. So only wealthy nobles have them.

 

I'm going to make them a tad more accurate than in reality for gameplay purposes and to actually help explain away the lack of massed formations of rifleman/musketmen (heh).

There was an early ancestor to the flintlock that was concurrent to the wheellock, the snaphaunce, that didn't catch on really quickly, but was a lot easier to produce.

 

Be good for rebel gunsmiths...

 

You could simply make them rifled.

 

Rifles were around for some time before being taken up by most armies. They were just an unusual and expensive weapon. Which makes them ideal for your setting.

 

Incidentally if guns are made by a guild then there's always the possibility of wacky new inventions such as the Lorenzoni Repeater, Duckfoot Pistol and Axe-Gun. All are historical weapons though not, admittedly, wheel-locks.

 

I've seen some amazingly built rifled wheellock arquebuses from the Tudor period, 1530's or so, nobles guns the lot of 'em. The big problem with muzzle loading rifles is until you invent the minie ball you have to use a mallet to pound your ball down the rifling during the loading process, so you get one really accurate shot. after that, it's a club until you have a spare few minute to cuddle with your gun and big wooden hammer.

 

And there are wheellock axe guns out there.

 

One thing I've always liked about Warhammer is that their creative team are pretty clearly black powder geeks. Their overall collection of crazy experimental guns is well worth plundering, and in a lot of cases not to far off some of the better real life experiments.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Muskateer

 

just for grins, a character sketch from one of my long dormant FH games, set in a Renaissance tech fantasy setting.

 

Note the bandoleer of pre-measured charges, often in our past nicknamed "apostles" (because you usually carried 12). They mostly replaced the older method of reloading from horns as the preferred option among professionals... you're much less likely to explode.

 

No joke.

 

I used to have a buddy who blew up no less than twice in his time as a caliverman, and I've had one "First count your fingers" accident myself.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Muskateer

 

And this is why I've approached you to draw these picture thingy's for me in the past.

 

I'll look into the rifling thing, possibly as a VERY expensive alternative to the more "common" muskets.

 

I do have a question...assuming an "average" calibre (I know, there really wasn't one, but this is fantasy right?), about how many rounds could a person get from a 10lb. ingot of lead?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Muskateer

 

And this is why I've approached you to draw these picture thingy's for me in the past.

 

I'll look into the rifling thing, possibly as a VERY expensive alternative to the more "common" muskets.

 

I do have a question...assuming an "average" calibre (I know, there really wasn't one, but this is fantasy right?), about how many rounds could a person get from a 10lb. ingot of lead?

 

Easiest if you rate your guns by Gauge (or Bore) if you wanna worry about such things.

Gauge a rating of how many round shot the size of the barrel make up a pound, so a 12 gauge (.73 cal) weapon gets 12 shots to the pound, or 120 from your 10 pound ingot.

 

The wiki link has a quick conversion chart that comes in handy, BTW.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Muskateer

 

Awesomesauce!

 

Thank you sir.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Muskateer

 

my pleasure.

I dig old boomsticks

[LordGhee]

Re: Muskateer

 

Just some thoughts

 

a nice short histroy

 

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm

 

 

the Musketeers were a branch of the kings household.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskateer

 

 

 

More in a few days

[tarragon]

Re: Muskateer

 

The big problem with muzzle loading rifles is until you invent the minie ball you have to use a mallet to pound your ball down the rifling during the loading process, so you get one really accurate shot. after that, it's a club until you have a spare few minute to cuddle with your gun and big wooden hammer.

 

My turn to agree but with a minor quibble. I do not know the history but I've shot muzzle loading (rifled cap lock and smoothbore flintlock) rifles competitively.

 

In competition, shooting at paper targets, I generally made a shot every 90 to 120 seconds or so. I could make an accurate shot every 30 seconds or so if I rushed and there weren't other people on the line (safety issues).

 

I used lead balls I cast myself with a small cloth patch and could easily drive it home with just a ball starter and ramrod. No hammer needed. Mini balls (minie?) were less accurate for me in these situations and while faster to load, not significantly faster.

 

I've seen shooters in speed based competitions make 3 or 4 accurate shots a minute by themselves and 6 or more a minute in pairs with 1 shooter, one loader, and 2 rifles.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Muskateer

 

I haven't really played with trying to engage the rifling with a patch. Sounds like early 19th C, at a guess?

 

Anyway, for some great visual aids, I thought I'd toss a link to The Rifle Shoppe's catalog

[LordGhee]

Re: Muskateer

 

the rifle pacth was an American invention used on the frontier, see Last of the Mohicans the movie year is 1757, great age of lace use of weapons.

 

to see the differnts

see

Cromwell with Richard harris to see how it was done during the age of the thirty years war. 1640

 

and of course

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Musketeers_(1973_film)

 

The best and the weapons use if very good.

 

 

and do not forget poor Cyrano

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrano_de_Bergerac_(1990_film)

 

 

good battle scene with pike

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

 

See the three musketeers the movie with Michal york and Charten Heston