Home on the Range

[Sean Waters]

Does anyone else think that it would be easier if all attack powers were either (before modifiers) ranged or not ranged (and, for that matter, either Cost END or didn't)?

 

I sort of noticed when I was putting together a bow and arrow power: I was trying to make the Bow add range to the other powers and it is a right pain if you want a drain (not ranged) and an EB (ranged) both in there.

 

Not impossible but more complex than it need be.

[Alibear]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Perhaps simpler to remember. Make all attacks HTH and add +1/2 for ranged.

 

And on that point make all attacks Normal and add modifiers for killing attacks, drains etc.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Here's the thing though. STR can add to HtH attacks naturally, whether HA or HKA. STR doesn't add to Ranged attacks naturally whether EB or RKA but they have the advantage of being ranged. They all cost the same per DC. Now, if they were all ranged you would have to add modifiers to all attacks, No Range for HtH and STR Doesn't Add for Ranged; unless STR doesn't add is already part of all attacks being ranged, but then you need to use No Range and STR does add on HtH to make them the same as they are now.

Maybe I’m being ridiculous, or looking at this wrong, but it seems to have all attacks start at one range actually complicates the use of the 4 most common attack powers. I’d rather just stick to adding “Ranged” as an advantage the occasional times I use Drain or some-such. Like I said though, I might be looking at this backwards or something…

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Perhaps simpler to remember. Make all attacks HTH and add +1/2 for ranged.

 

And on that point make all attacks Normal and add modifiers for killing attacks, drains etc.

 

But that would make ranged attacks naturally cost more. Right now +1d6HA and 1d6EB cost the same, don't they? Of course you could argue that to counter the cost of adding Ranged you could take STR doesn't add to damage, but now you're just really cluttering up the character sheet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Part of the problem here is making the cost come out right: if you removed range from EB it would (and should) be worth less - how do you compensate?

 

Drain is a bit of an odd one: it has no range and costs no END: the answer would seem to be you make it cost END and give it range - the balance is preserved and it works like other attack powers (in the main). I can not really work out why it is the way it is.

[Alibear]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Well if we strip all attacks to the bare bones and have only one attack power. Then to add flavour we make things like ranged, str adds to damage, etc all modifiers then we have no problem as then any player can build any attack and they should all be costed correctly.

 

We could do the same with movement, defence etc.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Well if we strip all attacks to the bare bones and have only one attack power. Then to add flavour we make things like ranged' date=' str adds to damage, etc all modifiers then we have no problem as then any player can build any attack and they [i']should[/i] all be costed correctly.

 

We could do the same with movement, defence etc.

 

 

So 6th ed could run to - what- about 20 pages....

[Alibear]

Re: Home on the Range

 

You could have 20 pages of attack builds to showcase just what you could do with it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Home on the Range

 

You could have 20 pages of attack builds to showcase just what you could do with it.

 

We can but dream....

 

....actually whilst I think there might be a case for separate attack powers (I've tried to unify all attacks previously with limited success only), I am working on unifying disadvantages, and so far it is coming out OK...

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Home on the Range

 

I guess we're really discussing 6e rules, and that discussion is officially closed ... not that that is going to stop me replying.

 

A solution would be to let basic attacks (no range, STR doesn't add) cost 4 points and then let Ranged and Can Add STR each be a +1/4 advantage. That would let EB cost 5 points per d6, same as now. HA would also be 5 per d6, but I think that is reasonable enough, since all characters have some STR to add.

 

This means that you could have a ranged attack to which you can add STR for 6 points per die, or you could buy an "energy touch" attack at 4 points per die.

 

4 points per d6 provides whole numbers for all values of advantages, which deals with some rounding issues.

 

Another way is to let Ranged and Can Add STR be 20-point adders and give all attacks one free adder. Other such adders could be included, perhaps AVLD or Killing or Reduced END (-4 END).

 

- Klaus

[Sean Waters]

Re: Home on the Range

 

I would be surprised if 6ED didn't strive for 5 point power divisions as much as possible, but I've been wrong before

 

The biggest single hurdle to unifying cost/damage is probably the cost of STR - and we really shouldn't go into that in detail or we'll be here for 20 pages just discussing that

 

The other problem with cheaper base powers is that it makes advantages cheaper: you could get an 8d6 NND under a 60 point cap if you start at 4 per 1d6.

 

Mind you that might not be unreasonable: start with the stripped back power and pile on what you need. I'd keep 'Range' and 'Adds STR' at +1/2 though rather than dropping to +1/4, even if it then does neatly work out at 5/1d6.

[Alibear]

Re: Home on the Range

 

I'm not going to argue against a sensible approach to building attacks just keep under some kind of artificial glass ceiling.

 

As Jim Royale might say were he to play Hero, "Active point limits my arse!"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Part of the problem here is making the cost come out right: if you removed range from EB it would (and should) be worth less - how do you compensate?

 

Drain is a bit of an odd one: it has no range and costs no END: the answer would seem to be you make it cost END and give it range - the balance is preserved and it works like other attack powers (in the main). I can not really work out why it is the way it is.

 

I think Drain costs END. I agree, however, that making all attacks Ranged would solve a lot of issues. For example, I'm better off making a Drain a Damage Shield, since it doesn't lose Range in the process, and ranged powers don't get any point break for loss of Range in the process.

 

I guess we're really discussing 6e rules, and that discussion is officially closed ... not that that is going to stop me replying.

 

A solution would be to let basic attacks (no range, STR doesn't add) cost 4 points and then let Ranged and Can Add STR each be a +1/4 advantage. That would let EB cost 5 points per d6, same as now. HA would also be 5 per d6, but I think that is reasonable enough, since all characters have some STR to add.

 

I find it grating that, in Hero, you get what you pay for, unless it's Strength. If it's Strength, you should be able to double your HKA without paying anything. Why should anyone have a 15 STR and a 3d6 HKA? They can have a 2d6 HKA and a 30 STR, get all the benefits of 15 extra STR, and still get a 4d6 HKA.

 

If you want more damage, buy more damage. If you want that extra damage to conceptually derive from STR, use Lockout so you can't use STR with that extra damage. This could apply to an HKA, a Drain that arises due to your STR, a Flash that is augmented by your Energy Blast, or any other "this power does more because it uses that power with it" construct.

 

Another way is to let Ranged and Can Add STR be 20-point adders and give all attacks one free adder. Other such adders could be included' date=' perhaps AVLD or Killing or Reduced END (-4 END).[/quote']

 

So if I have 20 STR, it breaks even, and it doesn't work right at any other STR level? No, thanks. If anything, any advantage should be on STR, as it determines the benefit derived.

 

I would be surprised if 6ED didn't strive for 5 point power divisions as much as possible' date=' but I've been wrong before [/quote']

 

 

I think it's time to move away from everything being divisible by 5. That causes issues with Aid, in my view, because it had to be 0 END to make it balance off at a 10 point price. Set the costs relative to benefits, and let the numbers fall out where they fall out. The rounding doesn't stay neat once we start applying advantages and limitations anyway.

 

The other problem with cheaper base powers is that it makes advantages cheaper: you could get an 8d6 NND under a 60 point cap if you start at 4 per 1d6.

 

That's a problem with AP caps, not with the cost of powers. If I want no more than a 6d6 NND, a DC cap does the job just fine.

 

The AP cap is also a problem dealing with the "default range" issue. If Drain is ranged by default, and costs 15 points per die, 60 AP caps out at a 4d6 drain (even if you limit it to have no range) instead of a 6d6 Drain (but only 4d6 if you add Range, since then it's higher AP).

[ideasmith]

Re: Home on the Range

 

 

Drain is a bit of an odd one: it has no range and costs no END: the answer would seem to be you make it cost END and give it range - the balance is preserved and it works like other attack powers (in the main). I can not really work out why it is the way it is.

 

5ER pages 129, 151. Drain does cost END to use.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Make all attacks Hand To Hand, STR Does Not Add.

 

Now adding either Ranged or STR Adds is an equal Advantage modifier.

 

Pay for what you get across the board.

[ideasmith]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Make all attacks Hand To Hand, STR Does Not Add.

 

Now adding either Ranged or STR Adds is an equal Advantage modifier.

 

Pay for what you get across the board.

 

Why limit the x Adds to STR? Why not EGO Adds or PRE Adds or Energy Blast Adds?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Why limit the x Adds to STR? Why not EGO Adds or PRE Adds or Energy Blast Adds?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

Normal Attack is Hand To Hand, if you want STR to Add to it (like it does now) you must add an Advantage. If you want it Ranged (like Energy Blast) you must add an Advantage.

Make all attacks the same, Drain, blah, etc yadda.

 

that's what I proposed. I've not idea what the heck you're talking about.

[ideasmith]

Re: Home on the Range

 

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

Normal Attack is Hand To Hand, if you want STR to Add to it (like it does now) you must add an Advantage. If you want it Ranged (like Energy Blast) you must add an Advantage.

Make all attacks the same, Drain, blah, etc yadda.

 

that's what I proposed. I've not idea what the heck you're talking about.

 

I was suggesting that while we were expanding what expanding STR could be added to, we could also expand what could be added to attacks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Oh. Ah I get it. My bad. Completely missed your thought.

 

Umm... heck sure why not. If the GM thinks so. I can see EGO adding to Mental Attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Make all attacks Hand To Hand, STR Does Not Add.

 

Now adding either Ranged or STR Adds is an equal Advantage modifier.

 

Pay for what you get across the board.

 

Except you don't pay for what you get.

 

Let's say that base DC costs 3 points. If I take 6d6 Attack, STR adds, I pay 18 x 1.5 = 27. I pay 9 points whether my STR is 5 (and adds 1 DC) or 75 (adding 15). Is it reasonable that I pay the same price for very different results?

 

Now, if the attack Adds to STR, fine. But STR does normal damage, so the attack should do normal damage. Putting a +1/2 advantage on a 4d6 Transfer should not allow me to add 4 more dice for my 60 STR.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Except you don't pay for what you get.

 

Let's say that base DC costs 3 points. If I take 6d6 Attack, STR adds, I pay 18 x 1.5 = 27. I pay 9 points whether my STR is 5 (and adds 1 DC) or 75 (adding 15). Is it reasonable that I pay the same price for very different results?

 

I think this is faulty logic, for the very simple reason that you didn't "pay the same". You paid for the extra STR as well, didn't you?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Home on the Range

 

I think this is faulty logic' date=' for the very simple reason that you [i']didn't[/i] "pay the same". You paid for the extra STR as well, didn't you?

 

Well....1d6 HKA = 1 1/2 d6 KA including the STR you get for free, so, looked at that way...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Home on the Range

 

Fair enough.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Home on the Range

 

I think this is faulty logic' date=' for the very simple reason that you [i']didn't[/i] "pay the same". You paid for the extra STR as well, didn't you?

 

Bob Brick, who has no KA whatsover, paid the same for his STR as the character with a killing attack.

 

A character with 15 STR and a 3d6 HKA does 4d6 HKA and paid 50 points.

 

A character with 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA also does 4d6 HKA and also paid 50 points, but he has all the other benefits of an extra 15 STR. That sounds like something for nothing to me.

 

A character with 30 STR paid the same 20 points whether or not he has a 2d6 KA to augment with it. Sounds like either the KA or the STR has more value if you buy them both together.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Home on the Range

 

A character with 15 STR and a 3d6 HKA does 4d6 HKA and paid 50 points.

 

A character with 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA also does 4d6 HKA and also paid 50 points, but he has all the other benefits of an extra 15 STR.

This just shows that STR is too cheap now, because you get "all the other benefits" for free.

 

In fact, it is cheaper than free now, since the 30-STR character doesn't have to spend nearly as much on Figured Characteristics and may even get to buy some Figureds back.

 

- Klaus