Summoning

[hammersickle59]

Regarding the EGO contest for summoning. The FRED says the summoner gets -1 per 10 active points in the summoning spell to his ego contest roll.

 

This seems both too harsh, and completely out of place (at least in my campaign).

 

For one, I don't allow any PC's to "build" the things they want to summon. They are summoning from a predefined set of demonic beings. If I think the style of demon should have "weak willed" or "strong willed" then I throw that in, also I would adjust the demons actual ego stat up or down. The PC's also have NCM in play, so it would be hard for the summoner to get his EGO above 20. Right now his EGO is 20 and he has an EGO roll of 13. Already thats a harsh control roll, considering his entire concept is summoning and he cant do anything else.

 

This roll essentially means that the bigger point value your summoning, the harder it is to control, and I certainly disagree with that.

 

My urge is to just ignore that rule. Any suggestions?

 

Dean

[Greywind]

Re: Summoning

 

Summon is defined by the campaign.

 

Not all Summons call Demons.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Summoning

 

This roll essentially means that the bigger point value your summoning' date=' the harder it is to control, and I certainly disagree with that.[/quote']

 

Why? It's a balance thing. If you can summon a big baddie and be reasonably certain it is going to do what you want for little cost, it can be unbalancing. It also stands to reason on a very basic level; the more power something has, generally the harder it is to control (why? because often it is at least semi-aware of that power).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summoning

 

Assuming you're equating Power Level with Point Cost then the negative is useful.

 

Assuming Point Cost has very little to do with how Powerful a Demon is in your campaign, I can see a need to change it.

 

RE: Raising the EGO Roll. You don't need to have a higher Ego Characteristic. +1 to the EGO Roll is 2pts (see Skill Levels).

 

I would keep a Skill Modifier in place, but I would modify it based on your own campaigns standards. Perhaps some Demons have a Perk "Hard To Control" that subjects the Summoner to a Negative Modifier. Some Demons have a Physical Limitation "Weak Willed" that provide a Positive Modifier.

 

and/or you can also provide Modifiers based on the Demons own Ego. Say -1 per 5 EGO.

 

The real question is - how hard do you want to make control over your average Demon?

 

13- is not a small success chance.

[hammersickle59]

Re: Summoning

 

Why? It's a balance thing. If you can summon a big baddie and be reasonably certain it is going to do what you want for little cost' date=' it can be unbalancing. It also stands to reason on a very basic level; the more power something has, generally the harder it is to control (why? because often it is at least semi-aware of that power).[/quote']

 

I understand it being a balancing mechanic in some campaigns; just not mine. Summoning has some major restrictions in this setting, that can not be removed. For example, the minimum amount of time it takes to summon a creature is 1 hour.

 

Regarding the "stands to reason" comment, I disagree. Just because something has more active points doesn't mean it has greater mental will (EGO). This is a modifier for an EGO contest.

 

Dean

[hammersickle59]

Re: Summoning

 

Assuming you're equating Power Level with Point Cost then the negative is useful.

 

Assuming Point Cost has very little to do with how Powerful a Demon is in your campaign, I can see a need to change it.

 

RE: Raising the EGO Roll. You don't need to have a higher Ego Characteristic. +1 to the EGO Roll is 2pts (see Skill Levels).

 

I would keep a Skill Modifier in place, but I would modify it based on your own campaigns standards. Perhaps some Demons have a Perk "Hard To Control" that subjects the Summoner to a Negative Modifier. Some Demons have a Physical Limitation "Weak Willed" that provide a Positive Modifier.

 

and/or you can also provide Modifiers based on the Demons own Ego. Say -1 per 5 EGO.

 

The real question is - how hard do you want to make control over your average Demon?

 

13- is not a small success chance.

 

13 is not a great chance, and thats the best chance the summoner will ever have, against an average demon. Against something bigger (300pts and up) he has almost no chance. Considering he just sacrificed a live victim and did an hour ritual, then that sucks.

 

The Skill Levels you mentioned might be a solution, but it does sort of bring up a problem. 2pts per is fairly cheap so he can just dump some in there and then be sure to control anything. As it stands now without the rule in place, I know exactly how good he is at controlling and so I know the scale when I design the demons. If I want the demon to be harder to control I give him an EGO of 20 or more and throw in "Strong Willed".

 

Dean

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summoning

 

You have an 84% chance of rolled 13 or less on 3D6. I'd call that good odds.

 

Skill Levels @ 2pts: It's just like buying +1 to any Skill. Characteristic Rolls are essentially Skills. You control that through Skill Roll Caps - a suggestion in NCM Games is 15- is a good NCM Skill Roll. 20- is a good NCM Absolute Top (similar to 20/30 for Characteristics).

 

Anyways, I've given you several suggestions for creating Skill Modifiers based on various factors.

[hammersickle59]

Re: Summoning

 

You have an 84% chance of rolled 13 or less on 3D6. I'd call that good odds.

 

Skill Levels @ 2pts: It's just like buying +1 to any Skill. Characteristic Rolls are essentially Skills. You control that through Skill Roll Caps - a suggestion in NCM Games is 15- is a good NCM Skill Roll. 20- is a good NCM Absolute Top (similar to 20/30 for Characteristics).

 

Anyways, I've given you several suggestions for creating Skill Modifiers based on various factors.

 

That 15/20 NCM for skills does sound appealing.

 

Thanks Ghost-Angel

 

Dean

[prestidigitator]

Re: Summoning

 

Hey. Meta-rule number something-or-other. If the rule gets in your way, drop it. Or something like that. If you've come up with other ways to balance things in your game, don't hesitate.

 

Also, no idea what kind of magic system you have going, but you might be able to add some Skill Levels to the "spell" or "ritual" used to do the Summoning as well. That might seem like an accounting thing, but in some games and some magic systems it can help.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Summoning

 

Regarding the "stands to reason" comment' date=' I disagree. Just because something has more active points doesn't mean it has greater mental will (EGO). This is a modifier for an EGO contest.[/quote']

 

It's a situational modifier that changes the starting point of the roll. For example, if the darn thing knows it is "ten times as powerful" as you, it might not exactly be trembling in its boots no matter how strong willed you are. But I suppose we can come up with all kinds of reasoning for something that, in the end, we just want to be a certain way or not. I'm comfortable with it, and it seems reasonable to me. I was simply describing one of the ways I rationalize it away.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summoning

 

If the character’s entire shtick is summoning shouldn’t he be really good at it? Why not have him put the “Amicable” modifier on his summons. As GM you can make certain summoned creatures “strong willed” essentially negating the amicable modifier and requiring a regular EGO contest when dramatically appropriate.

 

Also, strictly speaking an EGO roll isn’t necessary. You can also “convince” the summoned creature to work for you, an option which the book calls a “great opportunity for role play”.

 

Also, what kind of campaign is this? You’re using NCM but are going to be having 300 point demons walking around? Maybe a little more information would be helpful…

[mayapuppies]

Re: Summoning

 

Well, let's see...

 

Option 1: +1 to EGO rolls bought as a Skill Level for about 2pts per +1 (as suggested by g-a)

Option 2: Ignore the need for the EGO roll altogether, which seems to be what you really want here.

 

Seems pretty straight forward to me, though I do have to question the point level of the demons in this game as bigbywolfe has...or more appropriately, what point level are the PC's when compared to the critters being summoned.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summoning

 

It looks like there is one possible control in hand already.

 

It's been stated that it takes an hour to Summon a Demon. That removes immediate combat effects completely. As long as the Characters can prepare for combat, and rely on the Demon to fight with them (or for them) it can be a help.

 

I wouldn't say offhand being able to Summon 300+ Point creatures is immediately unbalancing. It depends entirely on how the Creature is built. 300 Points does surprisingly little if you want a few large effects without using frameworks.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Summoning

 

Penalty Skill Levels should be CHEAP and more than enough to counter the summoning penalty, while also representing an expenditure of XP (time, effort, training, materials, preparation, POINTS) to beef up their control of the summoned critters.

 

I'd say "+1 to offset Active Point Penalty on EGO Rolls for Summoning" would be the "Single Attack" option of a PSL; works out to about 1.5 points per +1, +5 was 8 points and would give them their full EGO at up to, what, 50 or 60 AP critters?