Zed-F Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 I have a summon that has a spatial-awareness type of sense which effectively works the same as sight, but is in the Radio group instead of the Sight group. Unfortunately, the summon has a low enough point total that it can't get points for disadvantages, so I can't just take a -25 disad for blind and use the points to buy the power. It seems I have 3 options: - Just use sight, and ignore the fact that realistically the sense should be in another group. It would be affected by visual flashes as normal. - Find some way to apply "affected as sense group X" to basic sight, and go from there. - Build the sense normally and suck up the points loss (not very appealing since the summon is low-point to begin with.) Any thoughts on the best way to work around this? Right now I can't think of anything for the second option so I'm currently just planning to leave it at the first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Re: How to model senses replacing sight without using disadvantages Originally posted by Zed-F I have a summon that has a spatial-awareness type of sense which effectively works the same as sight, but is in the Radio group instead of the Sight group. Unfortunately, the summon has a low enough point total that it can't get points for disadvantages, so I can't just take a -25 disad for blind and use the points to buy the power. It seems I have 3 options: - Just use sight, and ignore the fact that realistically the sense should be in another group. It would be affected by visual flashes as normal. - Find some way to apply "affected as sense group X" to basic sight, and go from there. - Build the sense normally and suck up the points loss (not very appealing since the summon is low-point to begin with.) Any thoughts on the best way to work around this? Right now I can't think of anything for the second option so I'm currently just planning to leave it at the first... Let me see if I understand correctly. You can summon a being of some kind. This being has no sight sense group. To replace it, you want to use some sort of advanced radar. That about right? Okay, for starters, summoned creatures, unlike followers, don't get any discount for disadvantages. (I don't like it, but then that's what house rules are for). That being said, you can just sell back your sight for (I believe) 25 points, and use that to buy your sense. The sick thing is, it costs more to buy a ranged 120 degree detect physical object with targeting and discriminitory than sight "costs". And you can't even see color. Of courst, radio group is already ranged, and you can specify only 120 degrees instead of 360 (more of a price break), so you should still come off okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 25 points? ST: Where did you get the 25 points from? I MIGHT allow a summon to sell back sight perception, but the amount would depend on it's PER roll. This is something that really is better handled by a disad, or simply by GM fiat (change the base perception to Radar instead of Sight). Personally, I would try to convince the GM that it is not that big a difference, since it will be more limiting than sight in many ways (no color, no ability to read text, affected by radio noise, clouds, etc). - Ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 I'd say GM fiat is appropriate here. You're just replacing sight with "radio sight". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Re: 25 points? Originally posted by eepjr24 ST: Where did you get the 25 points from? I MIGHT allow a summon to sell back sight perception, but the amount would depend on it's PER roll. Page 228 of FREd. The Sight Sense Group The Sight Group is the most important Sense Group and the one most often affected by Sense Affecting Powers. It includes Normal Sight, Nightvision, and any Enhanced Senses based primarily on sight (such as most uses of Infrared Perception, Ultraviolet Perception, and many other Senses). Normal Sight is worth 25 points as a Power. Sight group Senses are Targeting Senses Thus Saith the Good Book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 I agree with Hugh. You're not gaining or losing much by replacing Sight with Radio Sight; unless it has a real game effect, I'd just hand wave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjbrown Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 In combat situations, spacial awareness is often going to be far more useful than normal sight. A character with spacial awareness will be immune to the most common Flashes and Invisibility effects. The disadvantage of spacial awareness vs. normal sight is the inability to sense fine details, and how often is that going to be important for this particular summoned creature? It's hard to say without reviewing the creature as a whole, but I would be careful about just swapping normal sight with spacial awareness and calling it even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Originally posted by bjbrown In combat situations, spacial awareness is often going to be far more useful than normal sight. A character with spacial awareness will be immune to the most common Flashes and Invisibility effects. The disadvantage of spacial awareness vs. normal sight is the inability to sense fine details, and how often is that going to be important for this particular summoned creature? It's hard to say without reviewing the creature as a whole, but I would be careful about just swapping normal sight with spacial awareness and calling it even. True, but then that's where the whole "if there's no game effect" thing comes in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I would say that having this particular sense is definitely a benefit (and thus costs points), because you can sense in any environment what a normal character could only in full daylight. As stated, this ignores most Darkness, Invisibility, Flashes, fog, lack of light, etc. Buy the power as a full Enhanced Sense. That being said, losing normal sight is not much of a problem for your character, is it? I would call "buying back" normal sight as a form of Disadvantage (even if you want to cheese it and count it as a negative cost, rather than contributing to your Disadvantage total). At most I think it would merit a Physical Disadvantage: can't see color, Uncommon, Slightly Limiting (I'm not sure those are the exact phrases; I don't have the book in front of me). As for Summon not dealing with Disadvantages (which is really what you are complaining about), well, (ask to) make a House Rule or suck it up and pay for the total points as the book says, including your Power (because that's what it is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Originally posted by prestidigitator At most I think it would merit a Physical Disadvantage: can't see color, Uncommon, Slightly Limiting (I'm not sure those are the exact phrases; I don't have the book in front of me). Hrm. I think it is a bit more limiting than that. How about "Cannot Read", "Cannot perceive 2d visual images (TV, holograms, billboards, road signs, etc)? No book here, but does SA have discriminatory? If not, then don't you lose fine details as well? Like texture? Since it is based on touch, and has no range, don't you pretty much lose any long range sensing as well, except perhaps hearing? So they would be surprised by move throughs from more than 2" away, since someone just suddenly appears doing 30 mph? And they would not effectively be able to launch ranged attacks, correct? As I said, no book here so I may be way off. If correct, those sound quite a bit more limiting than not seeing color, even in combat. - Ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 It wouldn't be based on touch, it would be based on Radio. According to the FAQ, Radio does start with Range and Sense. However, you are correct that the summon would not be able to perceive any fine details about a subject beyond very gross physical structure. It might be able to tell that something was shaped roughly like a human, but wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a policeman and a thug, and couldn't tell what it held in its hands, unless it was a fairly large object. It certainly would not be able to see what's on a billboard -- what it would see is a pattern based on how reflective it is compared to various radio frequencies, not colour frequencies. There's nothing to say that white paint is any more or less reflective of radio frequencies than blue paint, so no contrast there. It does ignore some kinds of modifiers for sight (such as darkness) that normal characters have to deal with, but on the other hand there are other conditions that would cause this summon trouble that are no issue for regular sight, like being near a powerful radio transmitter or (potentially) even a cell phone tower or satellite TV dish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Originally posted by Zed-F It wouldn't be based on touch, it would be based on Radio. According to the FAQ, Radio does start with Range and Sense. It does ignore some kinds of modifiers for sight (such as darkness) that normal characters have to deal with, but on the other hand there are other conditions that would cause this summon trouble that are no issue for regular sight, like being near a powerful radio transmitter or (potentially) even a cell phone tower or satellite TV dish. On the Radio point, would it be certain bands only? Otherwise, anywhere near civilization is going to be a haze of AM, FM, CB, LF and HF radio, etc. Many local radio stations have transmitters that are quite powerful. On the radar bands it is less so, but you still have store security systems, police radars, etc. A large city would be VERY confusing unless this creature was earth familiar. And would it not also have to be active? Otherwise, in a radio deficient area (rural) most everything would be black or in shadows. - Ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 LOL. True, on several points. You probably would have to buy Discriminatory for it. (At least if you want to be realistic) Radio is not affected much by small objects, so it would probably have to either be active, and spew out so many radio waves that nearby planes couldn't fly straight (Distinctive Features and the Visible Limitation, perhaps?), or be very sensitive (Restrainable and/or Vulnerable/Susceptible to Radio Flashes?). I guess you are right that a larger Disadvantage might be appropriate for such things as reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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