EGO Attack

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

if you take 10 STR' date=' make it Ranged (+1/2) and Indirect (+3/4) and give it No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), it costs 15 points. What did 10 STR TK cost again?[/quote']

15 points. What an interesting coincidence! And it is, near as I can work out, a coincidence. You may wish to turn it into evidence that the whole game is built on Advantages and Limitations on X, but I think that's unlikely.

 

But you can buy either Swimming or Flight and add the +1/4 advantage "usable as another form of movement" to get both sweimming and flight from the same power.

No you can't. You can take Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement] on the more expensive Power. But that's neither here nor there.

 

What I was talking about was building Flight by taking Advantages on Swimming. I imagine that it could be done. But it's silly. If what you want is Flight, you should buy Flight.

 

If what you want is Flight that can also be used as Swimming, you should buy Flight with the Advantage Usable As Swimming on the Flight.

 

If you want Ego Attack, you should buy Ego Attack. You shouldn't buy Energy Blast and apply a bunch of Advantages to turn it into Ego Attack.

 

When two mechanical builds have exactly the same mechanical results' date=' it is my opinion that any difference in cost indicates a flaw in the system.[/quote']

Which two mechanical builds are you talking about? Ego Attack is not a mechanical build, it's a stand-alone Power not constructed out of other things.

 

Energy Blast with a set of Advantages meant to turn Energy Blast into Ego Attack is a mechanical build. And a pointless one. We already have Ego Attack.

 

There's no reason why the point cost of Energy Blast with Advantages should equal Ego Attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

15 points. What an interesting coincidence! And it is' date=' near as I can work out, a coincidence. You may wish to turn it into evidence that the whole game is built on Advantages and Limitations on X, but I think that's unlikely.[/quote']

 

I don't think anyone worked all the math to make it work. I do, however, find it interesting that the balance seems about right, and I can recreate one by placing advantages and limitations on the other.

 

What I was talking about was building Flight by taking Advantages on Swimming. I imagine that it could be done. But it's silly. If what you want is Flight' date=' you should buy Flight.[/quote']

 

The advantages to convert Swimming to Flight haven't been priced out, but if we only had Flight, I would see nothing wrong with Flight, no Turn Mode, only in water being priced at about half the price of Flight. It seems reasonably balanced.

 

Using the easiest, most straightforward build makes sense, but there should not be a substantial price advantage in doing so, or in using some alternative, more complicated build.

 

If you want Ego Attack' date=' you should buy Ego Attack. You shouldn't buy Energy Blast and apply a bunch of Advantages to turn it into Ego Attack.[/quote']

 

Neither should you get a significant cost break buying that Ego Attack versus buying an ability which has identical mechanics, or which has less beneficial mechanics. Your statement would be just as applicable if Ego attack cost 1 point per d6 or 100 points per d6. It is the most straightforward mechanic to build the power, so it is the appropriate one to use. However, if it is underpriced for its benefits, or overpriced for its benefits, that is a pricing problem.

 

Which two mechanical builds are you talking about? Ego Attack is not a mechanical build' date=' it's a stand-alone Power not constructed out of other things.[/quote']

 

"6d6 Ego Attack" is just as much a mechanical build as "6d6 EB, AVLD Mental Defense, Line of Sight Range, IPE (visible only to mental senses), half END, Only affects human minds". The fact that one has no modifiers and one has many just means one uses more components in the build, not that one is a build and the other is not.

 

Energy Blast with a set of Advantages meant to turn Energy Blast into Ego Attack is a mechanical build. And a pointless one. We already have Ego Attack.

 

Why should an identical attack that acts against Power Defense instead of Mental Defense cost markedly more than Ego Attack? if the Ego Attack is priced appropriately at 10 points per 1d6, then an identical power using a different, but equally valuable under every other build, exotic defense should also be priced appropriately at 10 points per 1d6. One of the two is mispriced.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

I don't think anyone worked all the math to make it work. I do' date=' however, find it interesting that the balance seems about right, and I can recreate one by placing advantages and limitations on the other.[/quote']

It is interesting. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

The advantages to convert Swimming to Flight haven't been priced out' date=' but if we only had Flight, I would see nothing wrong with Flight, no Turn Mode, only in water being priced at about half the price of Flight. It seems reasonably balanced.[/quote']

To me it seems reasonably balance through game play, not through working out the value of various Advantages and/or Limitations. Just as Ego Attack has turned out to be reasonably balanced to me through game play -- not through analysis of of Advantages placed on some other Power.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Why should an identical attack that acts against Power Defense instead of Mental Defense cost markedly more than Ego Attack? if the Ego Attack is priced appropriately at 10 points per 1d6' date=' then an identical power using a different, but equally valuable under every other build, exotic defense should also be priced appropriately at 10 points per 1d6. One of the two is mispriced.[/quote']

Assuming that Power Defense is just as common in your games as Mental Defense (it's not in mine), you simply buy Ego Attack with AVLD priced at +0.

 

If you find, as I do, that Power Defense is less common, I'd recommend Ego Attack with AVLD priced at +3/4.

 

I really don't understand your notion that one Power is mispriced because you can make a Frankenpower that does most of the same stuff at another cost. I find that Ego Attack and Energy Blast are well balanced in every game I've played in. If, however, you are convinced that your Frankenpower should cost the same as Ego Attack, consider that the Advantages you are applying to Energy Blast are mispriced for what you're trying to do. The value of Advantages and Limitations is always up in the air. Talk to your GM and point out that your Frankenpower does exactly what Ego Attack does and I'm sure your GM (after suggesting that you just buy Ego Attack) will be happy to adjust the value of the Advantages appropriately.

[Sean Waters]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Internal consistency matters more than almost anything else.

 

The 'anything else' being 'it doesn't play right that way'.

[schir1964]

Re: EGO Attack

 

...I find that Ego Attack and Energy Blast are well balanced in every game I've played in...

Since you said this twice, I just wanted to point out that I've found EGO Blast to be over balanced in every game I've played in and of the few games I've run and allowed it, also to be over balanced in comparison to Energy Blast. And I'm not the only one who has had problems with it in this manner.

 

So just saying that in your experience that you have not had a problem with it does not equate to evidence of it being balanced any more than my experience equates to evidence of it being over balanced.

 

Here is the problem as I see it. In order to have Ego Blast be a significant force as seen in much of the source material requires that Mental Defense and Mental Resistance (ECV) be uncommon (compared to Conventional Attacks/Defenses). The uncommonness of Ego Blast is not a balancing factor in this case since it would only require a few individuals with Ego Blast to overrun a campaign since there is nothing preventing these same individuals from using conventional weapons/defenses to augment themselves in addition to their innate Ego Blast ability. And this problem is not limited to just Ego Blast, but all mental powers, with the other mental powers being even more over balanced under these conditions.

 

Before anyone bothers talking about other settings/games where Mental Defenses are just as common as PD/ED, let me say there is no need to, since under these conditions Ego Blast and the Mental Powers are then as balanced as PD/ED/Energy Blast relationship is. That is not what I'm talking about. There are plenty of source material where Mental Defense and Mental Resistance is common and therefore balances things for those with Mental Attacks. I'm specifically talking about those other sources where Mental Defenses are rare and thus, per the rules, Mental Resistance is rare.

 

So a lot depends on how much of role you want Mental Defenses/Resistance and Mental Attacks to play a role in your campaign. In some cases it works just fine, in others it is very untenable.

 

Just Another Point Of View

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Since you said this twice' date=' I just wanted to point out that I've found EGO Blast to be over balanced in every game I've played in and of the few games I've run and allowed it, also to be over balanced in comparison to Energy Blast. And I'm not the only one who has had problems with it in this manner.[/quote']

Certainly I cannot speak for everyone.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

To me it seems reasonably balance through game play' date=' not through working out the value of various Advantages and/or Limitations. Just as Ego Attack has turned out to be reasonably balanced to me through game play -- not through analysis of of Advantages placed on some other Power.[/quote']

 

The value of advantages and limitations needs to be set based on the impact they have on game play. That's why "Only When underwater" would be a significantly greater limitation in a game set in the Sahara Desert than in a game set in Atlantis.

 

Assuming that Power Defense is just as common in your games as Mental Defense (it's not in mine), you simply buy Ego Attack with AVLD priced at +0.

 

If you find, as I do, that Power Defense is less common, I'd recommend Ego Attack with AVLD priced at +3/4.

 

What limitation would you allow a character with Adjustment Powers who wants them defended against by Mental Defense instead of Power Defense? Would you charge less for an AVLD - Mental Defense than for an AVLD - Power Defense, by the same logic? It seems reasonable that you should, if you find a power that acts against Mental Defense is less potent than one which acts against power defense.

 

I also note that this requires going against the "by the book" rules, since AVLD to switch between exotic defenses costs +3/4. The "by the book" rules are somewhat schizophrenic, in that they charge the same amount (+1 1/2) for changing from any standard defense to any exotic defense, charge no cost for switching between standard defenses, but impose a + 3/4 cost for switching between exotic defenses.

 

CURIOSITY: Do your players USE the IPE and LoS aspects of mental powers to attack from great distances, and be unperceived, or do they go toe to toe with the opposition just like the characters with physical attacks that are fully visible and have standard range modifiers? If Ego Attack was visible, with normal range modifiers and did not penetrate many barriers, then it would be much like an NND (AVLD is overpriced anyway), and costed about right. If that's the way it's played, it works in practice. But then there's no point in it HAVING those advantages by default.

 

I really don't understand your notion that one Power is mispriced because you can make a Frankenpower that does most of the same stuff at another cost. I find that Ego Attack and Energy Blast are well balanced in every game I've played in. If' date=' however, you are convinced that your Frankenpower should cost the same as Ego Attack, consider that the Advantages you are applying to Energy Blast are mispriced for what you're trying to do. The value of Advantages and Limitations is always up in the air. Talk to your GM and point out that your Frankenpower does exactly what Ego Attack does and I'm sure your GM (after suggesting that you just buy Ego Attack) will be happy to adjust the value of the Advantages appropriately.[/quote']

 

If Ego Attack is balanced, then the AVLD IPE LOS power must, logically, be underpowered. One of the two must be mispriced. If Ego Attack is balanced at 10 points per 1d6 (for 60 points, you do 6d6 damage against mental defense at a cost of 6 END, with IPE and LoS range), then EB: AVLD Mental Defense, LoS Range must logically be overpriced (the same 60 points allows 4d6 damage against mental defense at the same 6 END, and it's visible).

 

I've found Ego Attack does not unbalance as well. However, when I look beyond gut feel and memory to assess why that is, it is because the players and the GM do not actually USE the IPE and LoS advantages of Ego Attack to their full effect. Instead, they engage in conventional, close range combat with Mentalists, and it is typically fairly obvious who the Mentalist is despite the supposed difficulty in perceiving this.

 

Alternatively, they can be weakened by making Mental Defense fairly common. At that point, I'm better off with an NND - Force Field (same damage, and I can typically tell which opponents will be immune). This is similar to the Killing Attack Conundrum - killing attacks would devastate anyone without resistant defenses, so all characters intended to be taken seriously in combat have at least some resistant defenses. Make rDEF rare (like an exotic defense typically is), and Killing Attacks would become underpriced for their effectiveness.

 

[Funny...augment that NND Force Field with Line of Sight, IPE and Indirect, and we get 3d6 for 60 AP. Yet we get 6d6 of Ego Attack, which does pretty much all the same things and is an AVLD instead of an NND to boot, and we want to say that's "balanced". It's only balanced if we don't fully utilize its capabilities, or if those capabilities are not worth the cost imposed when they are purchased separately. I think the truth is a mix of both.]

 

I've been on both sides of the similar argument dealing with killing attacks. I've never found them unbalancing. But, confronted with the cold, hard math (thanks to Tesuji for opening my eyes beyond personal experience to the underlying reality), and reviewing my experiences, I did not find KA's unbalancing because my players did not use them in an unbalancing manner. They used them only against unliving targets in Champions (where the stun multiple was irrelevant), and we used hit locations in other genres (where a 5x SM for a killing attack also gets 2x stun for a normal attack). Similarly, my players have never used (and I won't say "abused", as it doesn't seem an abuse to use the abilities granted by the power) the sniper potential granted by mental attacks.

 

Since you said this twice' date=' I just wanted to point out that I've found EGO Blast to be over balanced in every game I've played in and of the few games I've run and allowed it, also to be over balanced in comparison to Energy Blast. And I'm not the only one who has had problems with it in this manner.[/quote']

 

CURIOSITY: Do your players take advantage of the IPE and LoS aspects of the Ego Attack? To be clear, I don't mean that in an "are they mentaloist sniper munchkins" negative sense - I mean "do they use the abilities provided by the power as written, which they paid full cost for, in an effective manner?"

[schir1964]

Re: EGO Attack

 

CURIOSITY: Do your players take advantage of the IPE and LoS aspects of the Ego Attack? To be clear' date=' I don't mean that in an "are they mentalist sniper munchkins" negative sense - I mean "do they use the abilities provided by the power as written, which they paid full cost for, in an effective manner?"[/quote']

Yes, but that may have been a result of my own manic need to understand exactly what the rules intent were and what those rules allowed as far as what the power could do and then clarify it to the players. That, combined with wanting Mental Powers to be rare, yet powerful, in my campaigns resulted in my strictly controlling Mental Powers across the board.

 

If I had ever run a campaign where Mental Powers were common, I don't think I would have had as near the issues I had with them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Using a power's abilities to the full is entirely appropriate: often in various genres the character with the better understanding and more creative use of powers triumphs over those with more brute strength but less finesse.

 

Ego attack is particularly useful because, whilst the target knows who is attacking, if the attack succeeds well enough to stun or otherwise incapacitate the target, no one else will know where the attack originated as it is not visible to normal senses. Of course that is the case even if there are no intervening objects, but if you can target through intervening objects with an enhanced sense, so that your location can not be detected with normal senses.

 

Point is, whilst the ability to ignore intervening barriers, however you might label that, is useful, the invisible nature of the attack is also very useful in many situations.

 

Example: You are in a crowded shopping mall and someone suddenly clutches his head and starts screaming, pointing at some guy in the crowd, and shouting 'He's destroying my mind!'

 

The guy is not doing anything but staring at the screamer, but then so is everyone else.

 

Do you think:

a) Obviously this poor fellow is the victim of a mental assault by that other chap - I better have at his attacker! OR

Oh my goodness - nutter alert!

 

Interestingly many of the properties of Ego Attack are possibly more useful for the shadier character, or even villains.

 

One other way of looking at it is this:

 

If Ego Attack was visible and didn't have LOS, but worked on normal range modifiers, was ECV v ECV and was attenuated by mental defence, would you still buy it?

 

Well, even if switching OCV to ECV is a +0 advantage (and it is probably a +1/4 for practical reasons) AVLD (to mental defence) on an EB is +1 1/2 - it is still a bargain at 10 points per 1d6.

 

The IPE and ability to ignore intervening objects (which an AVLD EB can not do) is just extra stuff on a power you'd buy as a bargain in any event.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

The value of advantages and limitations needs to be set based on the impact they have on game play. That's why "Only When underwater" would be a significantly greater limitation in a game set in the Sahara Desert than in a game set in Atlantis.

Yes. That's what I said.

 

What limitation would you allow a character with Adjustment Powers who wants them defended against by Mental Defense instead of Power Defense? Would you charge less for an AVLD - Mental Defense than for an AVLD - Power Defense' date=' by the same logic?[/quote']

I don't know. It's never come up. I suppose I would "charge" less. I'd have to see the whole build and take the game into account.

 

I also note that this requires going against the "by the book" rules' date='[/quote']

No, it doesn't. That's what your quote about the value of Advantages and Limitations was all about.

 

CURIOSITY: Do your players USE the IPE and LoS aspects of mental powers to attack from great distances' date=' and be unperceived, or do they go toe to toe with the opposition just like the characters with physical attacks that are fully visible and have standard range modifiers?[/quote']

Neither. They don't attack from great distances because that's not practical. They do attack from a distance and often try to remain unperceived.

 

If Ego Attack was visible' date=' with normal range modifiers and did not penetrate many barriers, then it would be much like an NND (AVLD is overpriced anyway),[/quote']

...and if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

 

there's no point in it HAVING those advantages by default.

Those Advantages work well with other Powers. They work poorly when they are used to build an already existing Power. No great shock there.

 

If Ego Attack is balanced' date=' then the AVLD IPE LOS power must, logically, be underpowered.[/quote']

No. If Ego Attack is balanced, it's the way you should buy the Power. Picking up Energy Blast with AVLD and BOEC and what-have-you is not the way you should buy the Power.

 

It's only logical to buy the Power you want. It's illogical to build it from other parts.

 

CURIOSITY: Do your players take advantage of the IPE and LoS aspects of the Ego Attack? To be clear' date=' I don't mean that in an "are they mentaloist sniper munchkins" negative sense - I mean "do they use the abilities provided by the power as written, which they paid full cost for, in an effective manner?"[/quote']

Of course. That has never been a problem.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: EGO Attack

 

 

 

Interestingly many of the properties of Ego Attack are possibly more useful for the shadier character, or even villains.

.

 

I find this to generally true of most of the mental powers. Player character mentalists in my game don't tap into their true potential nearly as much as the villains not because they're stupid but because they're more scrupulous.

[ajackson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

On PCs, ego attack is generally balanced if you ignore its special range. If you actually let people use ego attack through walls, or from low orbit with telescopic vision, it's broken (other powers can do similar things, but at least you have to buy special power advantages to make it possible, and it's pretty obvious what you're doing).

[Sean Waters]

Re: EGO Attack

 

I find this to generally true of most of the mental powers. Player character mentalists in my game don't tap into their true potential nearly as much as the villains not because they're stupid but because they're more scrupulous.

 

OTOH it would make attacking a VIPER base easy: sit outside with your NRay vision and Ego Attack, and put them all gently to sleep - no accidental deaths or long term injuries: they just wake up in prison

 

Of course the first time villains do that to the Heroes in their own base, I bet you see an efficiency increase in hero power use, and scruples be damned

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

On PCs' date=' ego attack is generally balanced if you ignore its special range. If you actually let people use ego attack through walls, or from low orbit with telescopic vision, it's broken (other powers can do similar things, but at least you have to buy special power advantages to make it possible, and it's pretty obvious what you're doing).[/quote']

 

IOW, it's balanced if you don't let people use all of its advantages. This seems to imply that it's unbalanced if it' allowed to be used to its full effect as written.

 

It's like repricing EB at 3 points per d6, and then saying it's balanced because, in my game, you're not allowed to use it from a distance exceeding 2 meters (or 1 hex, but I'm getting into practice for 6e ).

[ajackson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

IOW' date=' it's balanced if you don't let people use all of its advantages.[/quote']

Yes (I wasn't actually disagreeing that ego attack is problematic). Incidentally, I don't actually see much genre evidence (at least in the supers genre) for ego attack normally having unlimited range -- what you usually see is either people using it at the same range as any other attack power, or using astral projection and their astral projection attacks from the same range as any other attack power. You do occasionally see it used at other ranges, but that doesn't seem to be a normal combat usage, suggesting that it's less effective used in that way (i.e. they have a multipower with and extended range/indirect ability).

[GamePhil]

Re: EGO Attack

 

It's the only Mental Power that has been modeled after another power, on the arbitrary basis that it does damage.

 

It's arbitrary to want to compare the Power to another one that has the exact same end effect against a different defense? Hardly. I would agree that it's not entirely necessary, and I wouldn't change the rules over it, but making such comparisons can, if done with judgement, improve the game.

 

Of course, if done without judgement, they can wreck it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: EGO Attack

 

OK, not completely arbitrary. But certainly it's being picked on.

 

Or more to the point, the basis for comparison of utility for Ego Attack was not a Modified Energy Blast but Mind Control.

[GamePhil]

Re: EGO Attack

 

OK, not completely arbitrary. But certainly it's being picked on.

 

Or more to the point, the basis for comparison of utility for Ego Attack was not a Modified Energy Blast but Mind Control.

 

Yeah, I'll buy that, especially since as you or someone mentioned most of the tools we use for comparison were introduced later, and since it fits my pre-conceived notions of how much it should cost

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Yeah' date=' I'll buy that, especially since as you or someone mentioned most of the tools we use for comparison were introduced later, and since it fits my pre-conceived notions of how much it should cost [/quote']

 

Does that mean the tools introduced later (AVLD, LoS Range, IPE, maybe Indirect) are overpriced? To me, either Ego Attack is undepriced or the components are overpriced. I think the answer is that both are somewhat true.

[Sean Waters]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Here's a truth.

 

60 point attacks.

 

A normal attack puts about 18 stun through average defences in a 12DC game.

 

A 6d6 Ego Attack puts 21 stun through zero defences, or a maximum of 18 points through if the target has even 1 MD (and at least average EGO).

 

AVLD (Mental Defence) attacks do 5d6: 17-18 damage: that assumes no appropriate defences. That's - just - acceptable as a main attack - just - but the normal attack works against anything, pretty much and is almost always useful, the EA and AVLD are of much more limited use, and are sometimes of limited or no use.

 

Point? I think it is the advantages that cost too much...

[ghost-angel]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Does that mean the tools introduced later (AVLD' date=' LoS Range, IPE, maybe Indirect) are overpriced? To me, either Ego Attack is undepriced or the components are overpriced. I think the answer is that both are somewhat true.[/quote']

 

A little bit of Yes from both columns.

 

The more elements introduced the harder it is to balance everything evenely. The fact that many of the elements mentioned were introduced after-the-fact lead one to believe that Modified EB is not the best method one can use to get to Ego Attack.

 

Even if you can.

 

Were we designing from the ground-up at this point in time I would expect that the Mental Category have a different set of criteria to balance it against other Categories.

 

And AVLD is, and was, always way over priced. Luckily, 6E has changed that with AVAD. A resounding About Time from me for that.

[GamePhil]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Does that mean the tools introduced later (AVLD' date=' LoS Range, IPE, maybe Indirect) are overpriced? To me, either Ego Attack is undepriced or the components are overpriced. I think the answer is that both are somewhat true.[/quote']

 

The tools are overpriced in my opinion.

 

I think that the Indirect aspect of it should simply be part of LOS: you can fire through a window, but have no ability to get through a wooden plank even if your Mental Attack does Body without special senses. But that's another issue, and I'm probably wrong on it anyway, at least at current pricing.

 

AVLD are probably overpriced currently, at least for this purpose and in my experience. Mental Defense just isn't uncommon enough in games I've run to warrant a +1 1/2 Advantage.

 

IPE is also overpriced in my experience, but that's probably more because people find it easier to deal with and accept, for example, not having the defense against an attack than not being able to perceive it. That is to say, more people will put impediments to getting full value from IPE than will try to stop NND's and other equivalent Advantages, while still leaving you with a 6d6 normal attack.

 

Much as I disliked the concept of Classes of Mind initially*, it does make this construct somewhat more balanced, since it can be applied as a Limitation if you want to bring the final cost of the construct back in line. That combined with the fact that someone without any Mental Senses knows you're the one that did it if he is the target should be enough to make it come out around 10, or at least less than 15.

 

*And in the hands of some GM's and players, it's still a bad idea. Some rules are a privelege, not a right.

[prestidigitator]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Dude! Always have a mentalist in your party, and protect the poor wimp with your life. Having a Hero party without a mentalist is like having a D&D party without a priest.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

A little bit of Yes from both columns.

 

The more elements introduced the harder it is to balance everything evenly. The fact that many of the elements mentioned were introduced after-the-fact lead one to believe that Modified EB is not the best method one can use to get to Ego Attack.

 

Even if you can.

 

Well, we have AVLD (soon to be AVAD), IPE and LoS Range. Indirect as well, if you want to say that barriers without mental defense normally block attacks versus mental defense. We will soon have the ability to change the OCV and DCV to Mental. That's all the tools now available, isn't it? Now we just need to see the 6e prices.

 

And AVLD is' date=' and was, always way over priced. Luckily, 6E has changed that with AVAD. A resounding About Time from me for that.[/quote']

 

Until we know the AVAD pricing, we won't know whether it's still overpriced, but hopefully this will be dealt with.