EGO Attack

[Doc Democracy]

I was reading the 6th edition thread and thinking about the discussion on EGO attack and cost effectiveness. I dont really want to rehash that particular running sore.

 

What I am interested in is the idea of the automatic LOS you get with the attack.

 

Now normal attacks cost a fixed END and take OCV penalties with range to reflect the reduction in accuracy.

 

What about Mental Attacks having a fixed OECV but taking END penalties with range to reflect the increased difficulty in affecting things with your mind at a distance?

 

Would that begin to address the cost effectiveness issue?

 

I reckon Mental Attacks of all kinds might take this and would have a knock on of changing the pricing of reduced END for such powers?

 

 

Doc

[Vondy]

Re: EGO Attack

 

It seems like your describing a specific formulation of an ego attack as opposed to a generic/abstract power. I would recommend breaking ego attack down into its component parts.

 

I would build a basic ego attack as EB Xd6, AVLD [Mental Defense] +1/2. That would be the base power. LOS, if apropos to the build, would be an additional +1/2. If you wanted to model LOS as costing more END, I would tack that on as a limitation: endurance increases proportionate to range -1 (or whatever proved apropos based on the severity of the penalty).

 

Note: I did not address it being vs. DECV. As that is essentially a special effect and the characteristic has been decoupled, I'm not certain it constitutes a cost-worthy advantage at this point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: EGO Attack

 

I'm not sure there is anything 'in genre' that suggests that ego attacks don;t suffer normal range penalties, so, to an extent, the system is already playing a specific formulation.

 

The answer to that one is simple but unpalatable: break every attack down to its components and build the specific attack you want rather than taking a 'system template power'.

 

Not happening...

 

I like the 'range=END' thing though, and may build characters that way. It is not as restricting as normal range penalties, so I'm thinking -1/4 gives you END = (range penaltyx2).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Is what I'm talking about essentially variable limitation switching in either reduced by range or increased END??

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Couldn't this be done by giving the attack normal range penalties, then buying PSL's that Cost END?

[ghost-angel]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Ego Attack builds... always amuse me.

 

It's the only Mental Power that has been modeled after another power, on the arbitrary basis that it does damage.

 

All Mental Powers share a few common characteristics. Line Of Sight, Visible to one Sense Group - being the two more prominent. Some would toss Indirect into that mix, but I don't buy that line of thought.

 

Does Ego Attack have those because it was built into the model, or does it have those by virtue of being placed in the Mental Powers Category.

 

Sort of an unspoken Simulated Power Category concept. Much like Simulated Sense Groups - buy a Detect, define it as Sight and you get several things "for free" by virtue of putting it in that Sense Group.

 

Obviously, it's not really explicite or up front. But then - I don't buy Ego Attack is a modified Energy Blast either. It's a separate Power created for a specific grouping. It was placed in and matched against similar powers in the Mental Group.

 

Mind Control can be far more dangerous a Power, and it costs half as much.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: EGO Attack

 

If I can talk a little bit about Mentalist Sniper Syndrome....

 

We talk about that a lot, but the truth is we rely on the GM to not allow it. Given that, I think that Ego Attack as written almost seems a fair cost. I'd go almost so far as to say that if you want a mentalist sniper Power, build it from "pieces parts", and pay for what you get.

 

Cheap Ego Attack is part of the price you pay for not being a mentalist sniper.

[ghost-angel]

Re: EGO Attack

 

I have issues with the concept in some games, for sure. But that's more due to genre simulation than Power Builds and Mechanics.

 

We just wrapped up a short game where one of the players was a Mentalist Sniper. Actually, we had two mentalists, one affected machines the other people. We fully and compeltely utilized that the powers weren't blatantly visible and game balance wasn't once broken by it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

If I can talk a little bit about Mentalist Sniper Syndrome....

 

We talk about that a lot, but the truth is we rely on the GM to not allow it. Given that, I think that Ego Attack as written almost seems a fair cost. I'd go almost so far as to say that if you want a mentalist sniper Power, build it from "pieces parts", and pay for what you get.

 

Cheap Ego Attack is part of the price you pay for not being a mentalist sniper.

 

I agree. Basically, we give the Ego Attack the advantages needed to be a highly effective sniper attack, then we price it far below the cost of building such an attack from scratch, and finally we vilify the player who wants to use the abilities to their full effect because it would then be too cheap for its cost.

 

If I give the GM a character sheet with an EB, AVLD Power Defense, Line of Sight Range, IPE (only detectable by radio senses), and my character also has, say, Invisibility, or Desolid/Tunneling and N Ray Vision, I think it'd fair to expect the GM to either disallow the character because he doesn't want this sniping effect, or to allow the character to use these powers as a sniper, since that's clearly what he's built for.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

I couldn't agree with ghost-angel more. Ego Attack is not an Energy Blast with Advantages. It is a totally different tool in the toolkit.

 

Trying to recreate Ego Attack with Energy Blast is like trying to turn a screwdriver into a hammer.

[Vondy]

Re: EGO Attack

 

I couldn't agree with ghost-angel more. Ego Attack is not an Energy Blast with Advantages. It is a totally different tool in the toolkit.

 

Trying to recreate Ego Attack with Energy Blast is like trying to turn a screwdriver into a hammer.

 

The differences between ego attack and energy blast are represented by extant advantages sitting right there in the rule book. The only mechanical difference between the two powers are those advantages. The rest is just special effects definition. That ego attack was pregenerated with those advantages built in and costed incorrectly when compared to an energy blast with those exact same advantages tacked on doesn't mean its a totally different tool. I mean, aside from LOS and BOECV how is it totally different?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: EGO Attack

 

I was reading the 6th edition thread and thinking about the discussion on EGO attack and cost effectiveness. I dont really want to rehash that particular running sore.

 

What I am interested in is the idea of the automatic LOS you get with the attack.

 

Now normal attacks cost a fixed END and take OCV penalties with range to reflect the reduction in accuracy.

 

What about Mental Attacks having a fixed OECV but taking END penalties with range to reflect the increased difficulty in affecting things with your mind at a distance?

 

Would that begin to address the cost effectiveness issue?

 

I reckon Mental Attacks of all kinds might take this and would have a knock on of changing the pricing of reduced END for such powers?

 

 

Doc

 

That's not bad. mental attacks in lots of fiction I've read have no trouble locking on but their power is reduced by range. In fact, another option I might take is the limitation "reduced by range " instead which would allow damage to fall off but not aim if I were so inclined.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

The differences between ego attack and energy blast are represented by extant advantages sitting right there in the rule book. The only mechanical difference between the two powers are those advantages. The rest is just special effects definition. That ego attack was pregenerated with those advantages built in and costed incorrectly when compared to an energy blast with those exact same advantages tacked on doesn't mean its a totally different tool. I mean' date=' aside from LOS and BOECV [i']how[/i] is it totally different?

 

Ego Attack directly attacks minds, damage is subtracted with Mental Defense, only does STUN damage, has no effect on inanimate objects and most Entangles, and does no Knockback.

 

Energy Blast is a normal attack at range, damage is subtracted with either PD or ED, does both STUN and BODY damage, effects inanimate objects and most Entangles, does Knockback.

[Vondy]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Ego Attack directly attacks minds, damage is subtracted with Mental Defense, only does STUN damage, has no effect on inanimate objects and most Entangles, and does no Knockback.

 

Energy Blast is a normal attack at range, damage is subtracted with either PD or ED, does both STUN and BODY damage, effects inanimate objects and most Entangles, does Knockback.

 

All you've done is underscored that at a meta-level ego attack 1) has different modifiers attached to it, and 2) is probably priced wrong in terms of balance. You have not introduced anything about ego blast I could not accomplish with energy blast and correct modifiers other than a lower cost. How is what you describe materially different from an Energy Blast with LOS and Based on ECV? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression BOECV attacks did no body without an additional modifier, and even if they did do body, I could model that with "Stun Only." I don't recall whether BOECV attacks do KB, either. But again, I can just tack "No KB" onto it. And as for entangles and inanimate objects they have no ECV or Ego to attack. Its a given. So I'm still waiting for an answer: aside from cost how is Ego Attack materially different from an Energy Blast with the correct modifiers applied?

[ghost-angel]

Re: EGO Attack

 

The differences between ego attack and energy blast are represented by extant advantages sitting right there in the rule book. The only mechanical difference between the two powers are those advantages. The rest is just special effects definition. That ego attack was pregenerated with those advantages built in and costed incorrectly when compared to an energy blast with those exact same advantages tacked on doesn't mean its a totally different tool. I mean' date=' aside from LOS and BOECV [i']how[/i] is it totally different?

 

That's assuming that Ego Attack was costed compared to Energy Blast and not costed compared to Mind Control, in the first place.

 

A reasonable assumption, given the Effects.

 

But if Ego Attack were originally costed as a Mental Power First and not an Attack Power First, the original designers may have come to different conclusions than us.

 

It would use a different set of Advantages, with different end results.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: EGO Attack

 

That's assuming that Ego Attack was costed compared to Energy Blast and not costed compared to Mind Control, in the first place.

 

A reasonable assumption, given the Effects.

 

But if Ego Attack were originally costed as a Mental Power First and not an Attack Power First, the original designers may have come to different conclusions than us.

 

It would use a different set of Advantages, with different end results.

 

I kind of see your logic here, though admittedly in my mind it EGO Attack is close to Energy Blast than Mind Control. I like the tool-kit notion of HERO, where you take the basic power and add Advantages and Limitations to suit. I can make an "EGO Attack" from Energy Blast that way, but I can't do it nicely with Mind Control or other mental powers.

 

But then we have another problem, which is if EGO Attack were priced relative to Mind Control instead of Energy Blast, and EGO Attack is cheap relative to Energy Blast, then Mind Control is too cheap also (being, as you pointed out, even more effective than EGO Attack). Which is maybe one reason why people tend to hate having mentalists in their campaigns.

[ghost-angel]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Can't argue with any of that logic at all.

 

Of course, raising the cost of Mind Control likely reduces the effectiveness to nearly useless.

 

I'm not actually saying it was costed that way, but that it might have been. And if it were, our conclusions don't match for that reason.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

So I'm still waiting for an answer: aside from cost how is Ego Attack materially different from an Energy Blast with the correct modifiers applied?

The fact that you can pound away at a nail with your modified screwdriver does not make me want to toss away my hammer.

 

Ego Attack is intended from the outset and designed to work vs minds only. Energy Blast is intended from the outset and designed to be a normal attack at range. Different tools costed differently. Each well designed to do what they do.

 

I suppose you could build Flight with Advantages on Leaping or Running or Swimming. But why would you? You certainly won't convince me that the best way to build Flight is to put Advantages on other Movement Powers. It's just silly.

 

The Hero System comes with a lot of tools that are well suited for what they do. It also comes with all sorts of ways for you to modify the tools. You can even -- as you've suggested -- take an existing tool, break it, and make it function like another tool. Not surprisingly, it doesn't really function the same way.

 

If this doesn't answer your question, I really can't help you.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Ego Attack is intended from the outset and designed to work vs minds only. Energy Blast is intended from the outset and designed to be a normal attack at range. Different tools costed differently. Each well designed to do what they do.

 

Everything that Ego Attack does can be described in terms of Energy Blast plus Advantages. Based On ECV. Invisible Power Effects. Line Of Sight. No Range Penalty.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Everything that Ego Attack does can be described in terms of Energy Blast plus Advantages. Based On ECV. Invisible Power Effects. Line Of Sight. No Range Penalty.

You could build TK with Usable at Range on your Strength. But that's not the way you should do it.

 

You could turn your father into your mother. That doesn't mean you should do it. Especially when you've got a perfectly good mother at hand.

[Beast]

Re: EGO Attack

 

you forgot the limitations

does no body

does no knock back

only vs minds

 

it also has indirect as if you can see your target you can hit it

other wise you could not attack that target behind a glass wall/window unless you penetrate the barrier

 

what we really need are the notes from George and company on how they came to their conclusions

 

Everything that Ego Attack does can be described in terms of Energy Blast plus Advantages. Based On ECV. Invisible Power Effects. Line Of Sight. No Range Penalty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Ego Attack directly attacks minds' date=' [b']damage is subtracted with Mental Defense, only does STUN damage, has no effect on inanimate objects and most Entangles, and does no Knockback[/b].

 

The same can be said of any AVLD: Mental Defense energy blast. The switch from Dex-based CV to Ego-based CV is the only item for which no modifier is currently available in the rules.

 

you forgot the limitations

does no body

does no knock back

only vs minds

 

AVLD mental Defense has the same limitations. The only one we need to tack on is "only vs X Class of Minds".

 

it also has indirect as if you can see your target you can hit it

other wise you could not attack that target behind a glass wall/window unless you penetrate the barrier

 

Any attack vs Mental Defense is blocked only if the barrier has mental defense. See the writeup of Force Walls. "If you can see, you can hit" is the Line of Sight Range advantage.

 

what we really need are the notes from George and company on how they came to their conclusions

 

When they came up with it, there were no classes of mind, no AVLD advantage and no Range - Line of Sight advantage, so they didn't have all the same tools to map it out with. The Indirect advantage also did not exist yet.

[Beast]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Class of minds was more broadly defined back then, as if it had stun you could affect it

 

force wall is so overpriced adding mental defense makes it even more useless

 

everything else has been added over time ,but did it take into account what came before

in that do we have the math of what came before all the extra added

 

 

AVLD mental Defense has the same limitations. The only one we need to tack on is "only vs X Class of Minds".

 

Any attack vs Mental Defense is blocked only if the barrier has mental defense. See the writeup of Force Walls. "If you can see, you can hit" is the Line of Sight Range advantage

 

When they came up with it, there were no classes of mind, no AVLD advantage and no Range - Line of Sight advantage, so they didn't have all the same tools to map it out with. The Indirect advantage also did not exist yet.

[Utech]

Re: EGO Attack

 

The same can be said of any AVLD: Mental Defense energy blast. The switch from Dex-based CV to Ego-based CV is the only item for which no modifier is currently available in the rules.

Yes. And you can build TK with Usable at Range on your Strength. Except that you shouldn't. That's not the way TK is built in HERO.

 

You can build Flight with Advantages on Swimming. Except that's silly. It's not the way Flight is built in Hero.

 

You can build all sorts of things by putting Advantages on Powers. But that doesn't mean you should. Particularly when we've already got a Power that does what you're talking about.

 

Ego Attack is not Energy Blast with Advantages, it is Ego Attack. Though you can build something very similar by putting Advantages on Energy Blast, it's not the way Ego Attack is built in Hero.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO Attack

 

Yes. And you can build TK with Usable at Range on your Strength. Except that you shouldn't. That's not the way TK is built in HERO.

 

Actually, you can't because the rules are explicit.

 

But if you take 10 STR, make it Ranged (+1/2) and Indirect (+3/4) and give it No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), it costs 15 points. What did 10 STR TK cost again?

 

You can build Flight with Advantages on Swimming. Except that's silly. It's not the way Flight is built in Hero.

 

But you can buy either Swimming or Flight and add the +1/4 advantage "usable as another form of movement" to get both sweimming and flight from the same power. Apparently, Steve doesn't think that is so silly that it should not be allowed in the game.

 

Ego Attack is not Energy Blast with Advantages' date=' it is Ego Attack. Though you can build something very similar by putting Advantages on Energy Blast, it's not the way Ego Attack is built in Hero.[/quote']

 

It is mechanically identical. When two mechanical builds have exactly the same mechanical results, it is my opinion that any difference in cost indicates a flaw in the system. Perhaps one which would be too much hassle to correct, but a flaw nonetheless. If one power (EB AVLD Mental Defense) which acts against mental defenses, is fully visible and has normal range modifiers costs 12.5 points per d6 and a power that acts against mental defense (Ego Attack) costs 10, that indicates, to me, a flaw in the system. I could explain that one away - "does not affect non-human minds" is a -1/4 limitation.

 

But I can't explain why it should also get IPE (+3/4) and Line of Sight - Ranged (+1/2) for free. The limitation isn't sufficiently limiting to justify it. Fortunately, it also comes with Side Effects - if you use IPE and LoS benefits you are Transformed into a player who is vilified as a munchkin"