Magic, magic, do as you will.

[GMumford]

I’m creating a character for a Teen Champions game. More of a thought exercise as it’s unlikely I’ll play such a game soon, but one can hope. What I’m envisioning is a novice wizard who has the potential to do just about anything, but currently has almost no control. The closest I can get to an example of what I’m thinking is the magician Schmendrick from The Last Unicorn (1982). He would chant, “Magic, magic, do as you will,” and something would happen, but never what he expected and it wasn’t always a beneficial result.

 

My first inclination was a VPP with two No Conscious Control -1 limitations. The first because he has no control of what the active slots are. The second because all the powers in the VPP slots would have NCC too. Then write up a few dozen example powers that would fit the AP and RP limits of the VPP for the GM to use whenever the wizard would cast the spell.

 

The GM could declare that the wizard gets struck by lightning caused by his own spell on a whim, and I’d rather have the benefit/detriment of the spell be determined by a roll of the die. Besides, Teen Champions discourages the use of frameworks.

 

Then it occurred to me what I was looking for was Luck; several dice of Luck with Nonpersistent or Costs Endurance, Instant, Side Effect: Unluck, and limitations to represent it as a spell such as Incantations. Here there is no need not worry about the AP of the GM’s desired effect, he would just declare what happens. I imagine this spell doing something each time it‘s cast, but how and how much that something effects the campaign depends on the number of 6’s (Luck) or 1’s (Unluck) rolled.

 

My question to you, dear reader, is would you allow this? And if not, I would appreciate an explanation of why not. Perhaps my Search Fu is weak, but I haven’t found any examples of Luck being used in any way like this. Did I miss a rule? Do you see anything wrong with this? Am I stretching the concept of the Luck Power too far? One problem I see is Luck is normally sort of always on with the effect felt when the GM says so. Maybe a custom advantage, possibly +1, to buy off part of the implied NCC nature of Luck is called for.

[Alibear]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

Hmm ... this 'll take some thought, nice idea though.

[secretID]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

It certainly doesn't raise any of my usual alarms. It's an extremely limited and problematic power, so the actual build of it wouldn't really matter that much to me.

 

If that were the character's main/only power, I might nix it only because, strangely, it would put too much in my hands. To a great degree, the power is Summon GM.

 

For that reason, I would want to tie it as closely as possible to at least 1-2 die rolls. One roll could be the degree to which the effect is beneficial, another could be for geographical proximity, another for temporal proximity, maybe some other stuff...I would have that stuff charted up, so I wouldn't always be deciding on the fly. So, e.g., you roll a 15 on "beneficial," an 11 on geographical proximity, and a 13 on temporal proximity = something very good happens, but it's at the PCs base, instead of his current location, and it doesn't happen until next week.

 

When you think about all the possible things that could happen when one casts "activate magic," the overwhelming majority are ineffective, and half of the rest are bad. I would think that the player would want to limit that big range quite a bit.

 

I think Luck is a perfectly decent way to model it, but as a GM I would make sure to use one of the more precise mechanisms for Luck.

 

That's all just me. I like to minimize my direct involvement for several reasons, including to give fewer excuses to get mad at me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

If I were to reject the power, it would be less because it is somehow overpowered and more because it is more work for the GM. Assuming this is a main power (a la Scarlet Witch's hex power), then the player effectively says "Mr. GM, Mr. GM - I invoke my Magic Do As You Will power. What happens?"

 

The GM is now left trying to find a balance between so ineffective the player feels ripped off and so effective the other players feel he has gotten too much benefit after the limitations. Meanwhile, the GM is forced to devote time, energy and creativity to managing the player's power, and that takes away from his time, energy and creativity to focus on other aspects of the game.

 

"Invoke and get a random result" powers are, to me, one of those things that works way better in fiction than in gaming.

[CourtFool]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

With a VPP you could have the player sketch out half a dozen constructs so the GM just has to pick one or you could select randomly.

 

As much of a fan of VPP as I am, I find 90% of the time the same half dozen powers are used. You may want to rethink and go with a Multipower and Variable Special Effects. Generally you are going to want something bad to happen to someone else or some kind of defense against something bad happening to you. Energy Blast, Entangle, Force Field…you can accomplish quite a lot with just those three. Toss in some Luck for truly unusual stuff.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

A Multipower with variable SFX and random choice of which power comes up seems a reasonable approach. Then you get into the question of an appropriate build for limiting choice of the power that comes up, which would depend largely on the extent of the possibilities.

 

Just a thought, but what about using an Instant Summon? The "thing" you summon would be Invisible (probably to all but Mystical senses), and would wink into and out of existence, although in theory a powerful enough attack at just the right time could disrupt your MagicSummoning.

 

The Summoned being, if you succeed in controlling it with the usual ego roll, uses an action immediately in more or less the manner you wanted. If not, it takes a random action. Either way, after that singular action, it vanishes.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

If I were to reject the power, it would be less because it is somehow overpowered and more because it is more work for the GM. Assuming this is a main power (a la Scarlet Witch's hex power), then the player effectively says "Mr. GM, Mr. GM - I invoke my Magic Do As You Will power. What happens?"

 

The GM is now left trying to find a balance between so ineffective the player feels ripped off and so effective the other players feel he has gotten too much benefit after the limitations. Meanwhile, the GM is forced to devote time, energy and creativity to managing the player's power, and that takes away from his time, energy and creativity to focus on other aspects of the game.

 

"Invoke and get a random result" powers are, to me, one of those things that works way better in fiction than in gaming.

 

I second that. All of that. As described, the random magic power will be a headache for the GM. I think the random Multipower power slot is a good solution though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

A Multipower with variable SFX and random choice of which power comes up seems a reasonable approach. Then you get into the question of an appropriate build for limiting choice of the power that comes up, which would depend largely on the extent of the possibilities.

 

Just a thought, but what about using an Instant Summon? The "thing" you summon would be Invisible (probably to all but Mystical senses), and would wink into and out of existence, although in theory a powerful enough attack at just the right time could disrupt your MagicSummoning.

 

The Summoned being, if you succeed in controlling it with the usual ego roll, uses an action immediately in more or less the manner you wanted. If not, it takes a random action. Either way, after that singular action, it vanishes.

 

 

A neat idea but summon mitigates against it; anything you summon is stunned (or otherwise unuseable) for it first phase.

 

The MP has possibilities...all this for 42 points! If the power activates (14-) you get a beneficial effect to you (but you do not know which one), if it does not activate the side effects cut in and you get the slot activating (at half effect) against you/your team. Add more powers to taste; they only cost 2 point each (EDM? Transform? Uncontrolled force wall? Uncontrolled shapeshift?)

 

20 Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½)

 

2u 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 2) Flight 15", Usable As Attack (+1) (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 3) Telekinesis (40 STR) (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 4) Aid 3d6+1, any [special effect] power one at a time (+¼), Ranged (+½) (58 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½)

 

2u 5) Drain BODY 3d6+1, any [special effect] power one at a time (+¼), Ranged (+½) (58 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 6) Entangle 6d6, 6 DEF (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 7) Summon 172-point creatures, Friendly (+¼), Expanded Class of Beings Limited Group (+½) (59 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 8) Mind Control 12d6 (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 9) Telepathy 12d6 (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

 

2u 10) Darkness to Sight and Hearing Groups 2" radius, Personal Immunity (+¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Uncontrolled (+½) (56 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½)

 

2u 11) Healing BODY 3 ½d6, Can Heal Limbs, Ranged (+½) (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½) 6

[GamePhil]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

I'd also disallow it, but in my case because I don't think it is sustainably fun for the player: how often can you pull out your schtick and let the GM have all the fun of figuring out what happens (and for me, in general, it is a lot of fun) before you want to do it yourself?

 

It's the problem I have with Luck as it has been traditionally in HERO for years: it both leads to I-might-get-lucky syndrome, and it's just not that fun for the player, with some exceptions. It's good for the player who is having fun just being along for the ride, but not many others.

 

What I would suggest about any of the Powers that you're giving No Conscious Control (which effectively includes Luck) is: Don't take it. Role-play your character as not having control, but have your player control it. For example, your character shouts, "Magic do as you will!" and you role play him as pleasantly surprised when that whale that's falling on you turns into a potted plant that lands and breaks, mournfully, nearby. The players are, after all, helping to write the story: just because the character is a bit hapless doesn't mean you have to be.

[CourtFool]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

Role-play your character as not having control' date=' but have your player control it. [/quote']

 

This is exactly how I played one of my luck based characters.

[GMumford]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

First off, thank you all for your replies.

 

secretID:

If that were the character's main/only power, I might nix it only because, strangely, it would put too much in my hands. To a great degree, the power is Summon GM.

 

I can understand that. Would you also be nixing anything with the NCC limitation? Such powers could tax the GM similarly.

 

secretID:

For that reason, I would want to tie it as closely as possible to at least 1-2 die rolls. One roll could be the degree to which the effect is beneficial, another could be for geographical proximity, another for temporal proximity, maybe some other stuff...I would have that stuff charted up, so I wouldn't always be deciding on the fly. So, e.g., you roll a 15 on "beneficial," an 11 on geographical proximity, and a 13 on temporal proximity = something very good happens, but it's at the PCs base, instead of his current location, and it doesn't happen until next week.

 

I like this, but I have no idea how to incorporate this into the power.

 

Hugh Neilson:

The GM is now left trying to find a balance between so ineffective the player feels ripped off and so effective the other players feel he has gotten too much benefit after the limitations. Meanwhile, the GM is forced to devote time, energy and creativity to managing the player's power, and that takes away from his time, energy and creativity to focus on other aspects of the game.

 

Yes, but if that balance could be achieved, such a power could be a resource for the GM. Say the campaign gets derailed by a trip to Las Vegas. Security at a casino, suspicious of the characters, decides to rough them up just as the wizard rolls a beneficial result at the roulette table. *POOF* The team is teleported to wherever the campaign needs them to be, and it’s the wizard’s fault for trifling with forces he doesn’t understand.

 

CourtFool:

As much of a fan of VPP as I am, I find 90% of the time the same half dozen powers are used. You may want to rethink and go with a Multipower and Variable Special Effects. Generally you are going to want something bad to happen to someone else or some kind of defense against something bad happening to you. Energy Blast, Entangle, Force Field…you can accomplish quite a lot with just those three. Toss in some Luck for truly unusual stuff.

 

You’re absolutely right, a VPP isn’t necessary for the effect I‘m looking for. The reasons I initially decided against a framework are first, NCC gives the GM absolute control of what the power does when I’d like the benefit/detriment to be determined by roll of the dice, and second, Teen Champions discourages frameworks. Now I’m leaning toward tweaking Sean’s MP and roll playing some of the lack of control as GamePhil suggests.

 

Hugh Neilson:

Just a thought, but what about using an Instant Summon? The "thing" you summon would be Invisible (probably to all but Mystical senses), and would wink into and out of existence, although in theory a powerful enough attack at just the right time could disrupt your Magic Summoning.

 

The Summoned being, if you succeed in controlling it with the usual ego roll, uses an action immediately in more or less the manner you wanted. If not, it takes a random action. Either way, after that singular action, it vanishes.

 

I like this, but the wizard would never control the creature directly, probably shouldn‘t even know the creature is there. How much of a limitation would that be worth, if the Summoned being only did something to the wizard’s benefit, of the Summoned being’s choice, if the wizard won the customary EGO contest? Of course I could just role play the lack of control. As for the Invisible creature being stunned when it first arrives, unless someone can detect it, the spell just appears to take a little while to take effect.

 

Sean Waters:

20 Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½)

 

I like Activation Roll determining the wizard’s luck, and I’m assuming the Side Effect is still Unluck, but you put NCC so it applies to all the slots, not the Multipower itself. Doesn’t this mean the character could chose EB but not the target of the EB. Originally I put NCC on the framework so the character could not choose EB, and then again to apply to all slots:

 

15 Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled, active slot chosen randomly; -1), all slots No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½)

 

Is there a rule against this, or is there something I‘m missing?

 

GamePhil:

What I would suggest about any of the Powers that you're giving No Conscious Control (which effectively includes Luck) is: Don't take it. Role-play your character as not having control, but have your player control it. For example, your character shouts, "Magic do as you will!" and you role play him as pleasantly surprised when that whale that's falling on you turns into a potted plant that lands and breaks, mournfully, nearby. The players are, after all, helping to write the story: just because the character is a bit hapless doesn't mean you have to be.

 

I like what you’re saying here, but the burden Hugh was talking about being placed on the GM is now being placed on the player. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what the player wants, but your telling the player to deliberately screw up most of the time, including harming his own character occasionally, because his character’s concept is supposed to be incompetent, with no point savings or any other benefit beyond the joy of playing such a character. I don’t see many players going for that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

..................

 

Sean Waters:

20 Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½)

 

I like Activation Roll determining the wizard’s luck, and I’m assuming the Side Effect is still Unluck, but you put NCC so it applies to all the slots, not the Multipower itself. Doesn’t this mean the character could chose EB but not the target of the EB. Originally I put NCC on the framework so the character could not choose EB, and then again to apply to all slots:

 

15 Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled, active slot chosen randomly; -1), all slots No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Side Effects (-½), Activation Roll 14- (-½)

 

Is there a rule against this, or is there something I‘m missing?

 

......................

 

The way I envisaged it, you just turn the magic 'on' and roll for activation (all slots are the same activation roll) then the GM (or a random roll) determine which slot you get. If the slot activates then the effect works in your favour (If you are targeting an ally you'd re-roll anything that would hurt them, if an enemy then you'd re-roll anything that would be good for them), if it does not activate then whatever slot you rolled acts as a side effect (at half value) - hurting you or an ally, or benefiting an enemy - so no need for a seperate 'unluck' roll, or loads of off-the cuff creative genius from teh GM - the basic effect (good or bad) is already there.

 

There are 11 slots: you could toll 2d6-1 to determine which one goes off (or reduce the number of slots to 10 and roll a d10 if you want a flat distribution).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

Well, I wouldn't say it takes all the fun away from the player. There's always the matter of creatively and effectively trying to use whatever the magic throws your way. Keeps things fresh. But yeah, it's a good idea to make sure the GM is willing to put up with the power.

 

I like Luck though. Luck is different. The GM can choose when to apply it. I've had plenty of times when a character, or the whole party, is in up to their heads and it feels a little artificial to pull something out of thin air to help. Luck is an excuse for that, and it can be fun. It's a good Power for those, "Oh, you poor dope," moments. Likewise, Unluck is a good humble stick for those, "What the hell are you doing?!" moments.

[GamePhil]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

I like what you’re saying here, but the burden Hugh was talking about being placed on the GM is now being placed on the player. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what the player wants, but your telling the player to deliberately screw up most of the time, including harming his own character occasionally, because his character’s concept is supposed to be incompetent, with no point savings or any other benefit beyond the joy of playing such a character. I don’t see many players going for that.

 

Clearly, I wasn't clear, as I'm not suggesting anything like what you're saying.

 

First, the only burden I'm suggesting the player taking is in taking control of his own Powers, just like everyone else, rather than tell the GM at various times, "Could you please do something random with my Powers for me?"

 

Second, I assumed the character was supposed to be incompetent in a sense, but not ineffective. Most characters in literature that have a "magic do as you will" type of power set have it work to their benefit most of the time, or at least not strongly to their detriment, even if the immediate result was hard to recognize how it was beneficial. If you really want both the character to be hapless and the player to be unable to influence what happens, then possibly I'm on the wrong track, but I wouldn't play the character, anyway.

 

Third, if you want there to be potential negative consequences, or even loss of player control, by all means take some Side Effect or other Limitations to do it. All I suggested is not leaving the control of all his Powers in the hands of the GM, I never said that there shouldn't be a cost break if sometimes there are consequences or loss of control. If control should sometimes pass to some extent to the GM, there are Limitations that will do that without using NCC.

 

Fourth, as far as whether or not most players would go for that, in my experience there are very few players that would give up control of any large percentage of their characters 100% of the time, whether or not they get bonus points for doing so. So, no change there.

[GamePhil]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

Well' date=' I wouldn't say it takes all the fun away from the player. There's always the matter of creatively and effectively trying to use whatever the magic throws your way. Keeps things fresh. But yeah, it's a good idea to make [i']sure[/i] the GM is willing to put up with the power.

 

Certainly not, and there are plenty of good players out there that don't really care for control that would go for this type of thing. I've done it myself.

 

Another way to go is compromise: have the character have their NCC Powers combined with some the player has more control of. Gets expensive, though. Variable Limitation may help.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

Hugh Neilson:

The GM is now left trying to find a balance between so ineffective the player feels ripped off and so effective the other players feel he has gotten too much benefit after the limitations. Meanwhile, the GM is forced to devote time, energy and creativity to managing the player's power, and that takes away from his time, energy and creativity to focus on other aspects of the game.

 

Yes, but if that balance could be achieved, such a power could be a resource for the GM. Say the campaign gets derailed by a trip to Las Vegas. Security at a casino, suspicious of the characters, decides to rough them up just as the wizard rolls a beneficial result at the roulette table. *POOF* The team is teleported to wherever the campaign needs them to be, and it’s the wizard’s fault for trifling with forces he doesn’t understand.

 

This becomes part of the balance. As a teammate of this character, my character might well suggest that the wizard should be "off the team" until he learns to better control his powers. The fact that he's a player character in no way obligates my character to put up with general incompetence.

 

In fact, I've played a D&D game where one player had a Wild Mage, and a similar result ensued. In that case, however, it was offset because the mage had redeeming features that made up (at least in my character's eyes) for his failings.

 

But if the GM uses the player's abilities to railroad the entire group, I can see dissatisfaction arising from not only the specific player (who has now paid points to assist the GM in railroading the group) but also the other players.

 

At the end of the day, it's more work for the GM, and less control for the player. I retain the belief it is a better power in source material than in a game. That's not to say it can't work, and having it rarely used helps a lot. But will it be rarely used? Often, players in the game use abilities like this considerably more often than characters in the source material, and it becomes annoying after a fairly brief time.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

Another compromise, though it may not always be that much nicer on the GM, is to let the character/player control what the power does some or even most of the time, and leave it up to the GM how much and how often to exert that NCC muscle. The GM can always change little details, reduce the power of the effect, etc., reserving the truly non-sequitous effects for when (s)he's feeling truly imaginative.

[GamePhil]

Re: Magic, magic, do as you will.

 

Another compromise' date=' though it may not always be [i']that[/i] much nicer on the GM, is to let the character/player control what the power does some or even most of the time, and leave it up to the GM how much and how often to exert that NCC muscle. The GM can always change little details, reduce the power of the effect, etc., reserving the truly non-sequitous effects for when (s)he's feeling truly imaginative.

 

No reason that the player can't make suggestions, it's true, so that could certainly work out if the GM and the player work at it together in good faith. If it doesn't work out pretty quickly, though, it's probably time for a new character or a "radiation accident".