nexus Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD How is it changing the normal combat resolution process? Normally to Block or Missile Deflect you must use an Action/Abort to Defense Action, you can't use it passively like DCV. If the Advantage can do away with the requirement then it could create a new exception to the general combat rules for using OCV defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Normally to Block or Missile Deflect you must use an Action/Abort to Defense Action' date=' you can't use it passively like DCV. If the Advantage can do away with the requirement then it could create a new exception to the general combat rules for using OCV defensively.[/quote'] Ok, I lied about staying out, but clearly I'm not being direct enough. What general combat rules for using OCV defensively? All I know is that there are only two ways to use OCV defensively, I haven't seen anything anywhere that says you can't otherwise, it has just never come up since there is no other way to use it. Can you please give a page reference that would have to be changed? Hey, it's a big book, I don't have the whole thing memorized. Help a guy out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Ok, I lied about staying out, but clearly I'm not being direct enough. What general combat rules for using OCV defensively? All I know is that there are only two ways to use OCV defensively, I haven't seen anything anywhere that says you can't otherwise, it has just never come up since there is no other way to use it. Can you please give a page reference that would have to be changed? There are only two options that allow a character to use OCV defensively. Those are the rules for using it. To you use OCV defensively you must Block (which covers martial manuevers with Block Element) or use Missile Deflection (which is basically a Block that can effect ranged attack). All the current means* need to be used actively (performing a Phase ending Action) Currently there is no other way. AVACV may add an additional way to use Block passively (as in no phase ending action required) but it would be adding to the general rules on how to use OCV defensively. *actually they're all the same thing just with different slightly different functions/abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Not quite related to the new advantage, but if you have to buy up your CVs from scratch, what's to prevent most people from having OMCV of 3 (or even 1 by selling back) and DMCV of 8? Or for that matter, a mentalist with no physical attacks from having an OCV of 1 and DCV of 10? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Not quite related to the new advantage' date=' but if you have to buy up your CVs from scratch, what's to prevent most people from having OMCV of 3 (or even 1 by selling back) and DMCV of 8? Or for that matter, a mentalist with no physical attacks from having an OCV of 1 and DCV of 10?[/quote'] As far as we've seen now nothing in particular but point cost that I noticed but we haven't seen everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Not quite related to the new advantage' date=' but if you have to buy up your CVs from scratch, what's to prevent most people from having OMCV of 3 (or even 1 by selling back) and DMCV of 8?[/quote'] Nothing really, aside from point costs and the possibility of being unable to use your CV. Depending on what DMCV costs, it may fall into the 'why bother' category for most characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Not quite related to the new advantage' date=' but if you have to buy up your CVs from scratch, what's to prevent most people from having OMCV of 3 (or even 1 by selling back) and DMCV of 8? Or for that matter, a mentalist with no physical attacks from having an OCV of 1 and DCV of 10?[/quote'] If a GM is willing to allow it, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Nothing prevents characters from selling their COM back, or selling their END to buy END reserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The difference is that CV is one of the most important parts of a character's combat abilities. In the past, a mentalist had an enormous advantage in MCV over a normal character because he or she usually had 20-30 Ego whereas most typical non-mentalist characters had 10-15. Obviously there are exceptions. Now, the mentalist still needs to buy up BOTH OMCV and DMCV. The non-mentalist needs to only buy up DMCV. The non-M needs to spend only half or less as many points to match the M character now as opposed to about the same number of points before. Example: If MCV were 5 pts per level, the M character might have 8 of each for a total of 50 pts. The non-M character has 1 OMCV and 8 DMCV for a total of 15 pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Not quite related to the new advantage' date=' but if you have to buy up your CVs from scratch, what's to prevent most people from having OMCV of 3 (or even 1 by selling back) and DMCV of 8? Or for that matter, a mentalist with no physical attacks from having an OCV of 1 and DCV of 10?[/quote']I expect well see a lot of experimental builds along those lines as players and GMs shake out the new rules. As has been noted before, no set of rules can prevent unbalancing builds - it's up to the GM. That was the case in 5ER; it'll be just as true in 6E or 60th. Why not a pure-offense mentalist with a high OMCV and low DMCV? If he's not concerned with fighting other mentalists, it sounds like a perfectly valid build concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The difference is that CV is one of the most important parts of a character's combat abilities. In the past, a mentalist had an enormous advantage in MCV over a normal character because he or she usually had 20-30 Ego whereas most typical non-mentalist characters had 10-15. Obviously there are exceptions. Now, the mentalist still needs to buy up BOTH OMCV and DMCV. The non-mentalist needs to only buy up DMCV. The non-M needs to spend only half or less as many points to match the M character now as opposed to about the same number of points before. Example: If MCV were 5 pts per level, the M character might have 8 of each for a total of 50 pts. The non-M character has 1 OMCV and 8 DMCV for a total of 15 pts. The tone of your post suggests that you have some concern that this may not have been addressed in 6e. Is this correct, and if so, why are you concerned that such an oversight may have occurred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Looks great to me! The Advantage/Limitation for less/more common defenses is something that I've been arguing for for years. Why should I have to pay +3/4 to have my Drain work against Flash Defense when it's just as common as Power Defense? 1 Showcase, 9 pages of discussion (so far). At this rate, we can expect this thread to be at least 54 pages long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The whole point of separating them out would be so someone could buy up one, and not the other, or buy up the Characteristic without affecting the others. It supposed to add design options. The super-dodgy hard to hit guy who couldn't shoot his way out of a paper bag open at both ends. The will of iron who has no skill with the psychic powers himself. All kinds of combinations are possible. All kinds of ideas can be implemented. That's the fun, the point, the whole concept behind Hero System - build YOUR vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The tone of your post suggests that you have some concern that this may not have been addressed in 6e. Is this correct' date=' and if so, why are you concerned that such an oversight may have occurred?[/quote'] I haven't seen anything that shows where this has been addressed, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't. If it has been addressed (beyond simply forbidding the selling back of CV), then that would be cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The whole point of separating them out would be so someone could buy up one, and not the other, or buy up the Characteristic without affecting the others. It supposed to add design options. The super-dodgy hard to hit guy who couldn't shoot his way out of a paper bag open at both ends. The will of iron who has no skill with the psychic powers himself. All kinds of combinations are possible. All kinds of ideas can be implemented. That's the fun, the point, the whole concept behind Hero System - build YOUR vision. All things are possible. That doesn't mean that all things are balanced. In heroic fiction, there are scads of heroes with wills of iron who have no skills with psychic powers themselves. In game terms, there would be the same number, but they would start off with a big point advantage over mentalists. I'm less worried about OCV/DCV imbalances since they're much more useful for general characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD All things are possible. That doesn't mean that all things are balanced. Yes, well. I've stated it a hundred times - I don't think it's the systems resposibility to tell you what a balanced game is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Yes' date=' well. I've stated it a hundred times - I don't think it's the systems resposibility to tell you what a balanced game is.[/quote'] The thing is that an iron willed non-mentalist hero is a staple of heroic fiction. A basic archetype if you will. By buying a low OMCV and high DMCV, you're exactly fulfilling conception. Yet this gives a huge advantage to this very basic archetype. Let's say PD cost 1/2 of a point per point. You can say that it's not the system's responsibility to tell you what a balanced game is, and forbid anyone who buys more PD than their conception would indicate, but this still leads to the Brick having more points to spend on other stuff once he gets his cheap PD. I'm not suggesting that MCV is too cheap or expensive, but just illustrating a point. At some point, the system has to take some responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD As I see it... no the system doesn't. As you say, the Iron Willed Non-Mentalist is a staple. Now you can fulfill that archetype quite nicely. I fail to the see the problem. Let's say he buys up DMCV, bot not OMCV or EGO - hitting him is hard, affecting him easy. Or buys up EGO but not DMCV or OMCV - hitting him is easy, affecting him his hard. Why should I pay points for something I'm never going to use? An often repeated mantra "You get what you pay for" - yeah well, I only want to pay for what I'm going to use. Now I can. Your problem is unfounded. There is no balance issue unless you let there be one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD He spends some of the 35 pts saved on OMCV compared to mentalist on ego or mental defense. Say 10 pts mental defense (he's iron willed remember). Now he's hard to hit, hard to affect, and has 25 spare points for other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD My only possible answer: so what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD My only possible answer: so what A common archetype built strictly according to conception and the rules has a sizable advantage over another common archetype built strictly to conception and the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Before he could have spent all 35 Points on Mental Defense and been nearly invulnerable to Mental Powers. Now he has more choices. How is this bad? Your argument holds no water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Before he could have spent all 35 Points on Mental Defense and been nearly invulnerable to Mental Powers. Now he has more choices. How is this bad? Your argument holds no water. Then he wouldn't have a point advantage over the mentalist if he did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD No? Why not? The Mentalist would have to spend more on EGO (or EGO + OMCV + DMCV) + Mental Defense. The defender just bought Mental Defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD No? Why not? The Mentalist would have to spend more on EGO (or EGO + OMCV + DMCV) + Mental Defense. The defender just bought Mental Defense. You mean leave a DMCV of 3? Then it wouldn't fit the conception of the "iron willed" hero and he'd be way vulnerable to other attacks that use DMCV but don't use mental defense as the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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