Power "Cooldown": how to write up

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Personally, I'd just kick Extra Time around to the back end (can't use for X Time After Use), reduce the value by 1/4 and forget about the "can't make other Attacks" aspect.

 

It's clean and simple and easy to use and understand.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Personally, I'd just kick Extra Time around to the back end (can't use for X Time After Use), reduce the value by 1/4 and forget about the "can't make other Attacks" aspect.

 

It's clean and simple and easy to use and understand.

 

Laydeez and Gentlemen: the winnah!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Personally, I'd just kick Extra Time around to the back end (can't use for X Time After Use), reduce the value by 1/4 and forget about the "can't make other Attacks" aspect.

 

It's clean and simple and easy to use and understand.

That's pretty much like what Delayed Effect would be, which is more restrictive, so I'd make it -1/2 less limitation.

 

This happens to work out really well since ET: Full Phase is -1/2. Since you can only make one attack action per phase anyway, "Full Phase Cooldown" would be a -0 Limitation. Thus we'd have these values for various cooldown times:

 

Extra Phase -1/4

Turn -3/4*

Minute -1

Five Minutes -1.5

etc.

 

* since there's a gap between Extra Phase and One Turn, you could make Extra Two Phases a -1/2 limitation.

[Tasha]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Personally, I'd just kick Extra Time around to the back end (can't use for X Time After Use), reduce the value by 1/4 and forget about the "can't make other Attacks" aspect.

 

It's clean and simple and easy to use and understand.

 

That's pretty much what I was envisioning as the "right" answer

 

Tasha

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Thus we'd have these values for various cooldown times:

 

Extra Phase -1/4

Turn -3/4

Minute -1

Five Minutes -1.5

etc.

Problem is, this is more expensive than my suggestion for building it under current rules - so why would you choose the limitation?

16d6 EB, x10 END Cost (-4): 16 points

END Reserve (80 END, 4 REC): 12 points

Total cost: 28 points

It takes 4 minutes to fully recover the Reserve.

Compared to 16d6 with 0 END (+½) and 5 minute cooldown (-1½ limitation) at 48 points.

 

A 1-minute cooldown variant would be:

16d6 EB, x6 END Cost (-2½): 23 points

END Reserve (50 END, 10 REC): 15 points

Total cost: 38 points

Compared to 16d6 with 0 END (+½) and 5 minute cooldown (-1): 60 points

 

Or the 1-turn variant (which in my version would even allow firing on the first phase in a new turn rather than after a full turn):

 

16d6 EB, x3 END Cost (-1): 40 points

END Reserve (30 END, 24 REC): 27 points

Total cost: 67 points

Compared to 16d6 with 0 END (+½) and 1 turn cooldown (-3/4): 69 points

 

(Edited with more information).

 

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Problem is, this is more expensive than my suggestion for building it under current rules - so why would you choose the limitation?

 

Compared to 16d6 with 0 END (+½) and 5 minute cooldown (-1½ limitation) at 48 points.

 

A 1-minute cooldown variant would be:

16d6 EB, x6 END Cost (-2½): 23 points

END Reserve (50 END, 10 REC): 15 points

Total cost: 38 points

Compared to 16d6 with 0 END (+½) and 5 minute cooldown (-1): 60 points

 

Or the 1-turn variant (which in my version would even allow firing on the first phase in a new turn rather than after a full turn):

 

16d6 EB, x3 END Cost (-1): 40 points

END Reserve (30 END, 24 REC): 27 points

Total cost: 67 points

Compared to 16d6 with 0 END (+½) and 1 turn cooldown (-3/4): 69 points

- Klaus

 

One problem with this build is that it relies heavily on combining END battery with Increased END, suggested as a potentially abusive (ie undercosted) approach in the rulebook somewhere.

 

A 1 turn cooldown matches up reasonably closely at 69 or 67 points, which seems reasonable. Your one minute cooldown comes in at 38 points. A 16d6 EB with 1 charge costs 27 points, can't be used three times in three encounters in the same day, and can't be used at reduced power to conserve the END battery.

 

EDIT: As a GM, I'd have to ask how your construct for, say, 1 turn cooldown would be unfairly priced at 16d6 EB, 10 point END battery, 8 REC for 89 points? It's the same end result. Manipulation of the END battery and END multiple seems like a min/max approach, although it may come to a reasonable result.

 

I think Extra Time is more analogous, and should ensure that a 1 day cooldown period is akin to having 1 charge that costs END (-2 1/2).

[GMumford]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

I'm looking at the rules for Increased Recovery Time on Charges. If I'm following the time chart correctly, going up instead of down, 1 Charge that recovers the same phase it's used is +1/2, which is the same as 0 END. 1 Charge with the desired Decreased Recovery Time plus Cost END.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

As a GM' date=' I'd have to ask how your construct for, say, 1 turn cooldown would be unfairly priced at 16d6 EB, 0 END, 10 point END battery, 8 REC for 129 points? It's the same end result.[/quote']

Why 0 END? Then you could use the power forever without ever worrying about the END Reserve. I assume you just mean 16d6 EB, 10 point END Reserve, 8 REC for 89 points - which would still be a rather dumb build.

 

Manipulation of the END battery and END multiple seems like a min/max approach, although it may come to a reasonable result.

I grant you that, but that has more to do with how END Reserve works. You don't get a limitation on a power if the Reserve it draws from is very slow, even though a comparable build with Charges would give a limitation.

 

I think that the limitation you get on REC in a Reserve should also be applied to the Powers that draw on the Reserve. In return, the END could be more expensive than now, perhaps ½ point like regular END.

 

I don't have the book here, but AFAIR, slow recovery of END is -½ per step on the time chart. So to get a 5-minute cooldown, you would get a -1 limitation on both the REC and the Power. So with this alternate END Reserve, it would go like:

 

16d6 EB with slow Reserve (-1): 40 points

8 END in Battery: 4 points

8 REC, recovers every 5 minutes (-1): 4 points

Total cost: 48 points - exactly the same as 16d6 with 0 END (+½) and 5 minute cooldown (suggested -1½ limitation)

 

- Klaus

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Problem is' date=' this is more expensive than my suggestion for building it under current rules - so why would you choose the limitation?[/quote']

Fairness, perhaps?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Why 0 END? Then you could use the power forever without ever worrying about the END Reserve. I assume you just mean 16d6 EB' date=' 10 point END Reserve, 8 REC for 89 points[/quote']

 

Yup - corrected above. Thanks for the catch.

 

- which would still be a rather dumb build.

 

It would allow me to toss out a 16d6 EB on recovering from being KO'd with 1 END. That seems useful. The EB could go in a Multipower of other abilities that cost END as well.

 

I grant you that' date=' but that has more to do with how END Reserve works. You don't get a limitation on a power if the Reserve it draws from is very slow, even though a comparable build with Charges would give a limitation.[/quote']

 

You don't get a limitation if your character has a low REC either. You also get no limitation for having a ton of other powers that draw on the battery, or on your own END.

 

That's not to say END reserve couldn't stand a review.

 

Assume a character with, say, 25 CON and 10 REC. He gets 50 END automatically. Sell all the END back for 25 points, and buy a 150 END battery with 10 recovery. The end result seems like a much more effective character to me. And he doesn't lose all his END if he's KO'd at -2 STUN.

[GamePhil]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

Assume a character with' date=' say, 25 CON and 10 REC. He gets 50 END automatically. Sell all the END back for 25 points, and buy a 150 END battery with 10 recovery. The end result seems like a much more effective character to me. And he doesn't lose all his END if he's KO'd at -2 STUN.[/quote']

 

Also can't use Phases for Recoveries of his END, but yes, that seems the superior build otherwise.

 

I think I actually like the idea of using Charges and moving up the time chart to get Reduced Time To Recover as far as the original question goes, but as far as I know it's not technically legal. Using a Recoverable Charge at a value that is "Recovered after a Turn" is more arbitrary, but it's probably all right.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

[Dumb build] It would allow me to toss out a 16d6 EB on recovering from being KO'd with 1 END. That seems useful. The EB could go in a Multipower of other abilities that cost END as well.

What I meant is that by spending a few points extra on END, you could use the power several times before having to worry about recovery.

 

You don't get a limitation if your character has a low REC either.

There is a difference between having low recovery and having slow recovery. Recovering 100 END every hour is slower than recovering 1 END every turn, yet currently the former is vastly more expensive in an END Reserve.

 

That's not to say END reserve couldn't stand a review.

I did argue for that repeatedly in the 6e forum, and I hope Steve has rewritten it. As I see it, the main problems with the current version are:

1. The END is much too cheap. There is no real reason it should be any cheaper than normal END, since the utility is more or less the same. You can't get it back through Recovery actions, but in return, you don't lose it when knocked out.
   
2. The limitation for slow recovery isn't worth anything. It is always better to spend X points on REC/Turn than spending the same points on slower, limited REC. The slowest REC worth buying is 1/Turn, and that will recharge even a 100 END Reserve in 20 minutes.
   

I outlined one solution above: limit powers according to how slowly the reserve recovers. Another, simpler solution is to not have a REC per se in a Reserve, but let all the END (at a cost of 1 per) recover every Turn. Then limitations can be applied to this cost for slower recovery. Having a 50 END Reserve that recovers every 5 minutes (-1) would hence cost 25 points. This corresponds reasonably to having 50 regular END (25 points) and 2 REC.

 

- Klaus

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

One thing I've done in the past is give the End Reserve cost only up to the character's normal End and Rec scores, then charge normal End and Rec costs for them above that. Sort of like Follower and Multiform rules (were?).

[GMumford]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

I think I actually like the idea of using Charges and moving up the time chart to get Reduced Time To Recover as far as the original question goes' date=' but as far as I know it's not technically legal. Using a Recoverable Charge at a value that is "Recovered after a Turn" is more arbitrary, but it's probably all right.[/quote']

 

I’ve reread the passage on Charges. I found nothing that indisputably says it's not legal. If I’ve missed something and it does say no it’s probably followed by the ever present “unless the GM rules otherwise.”

“Charges define how many times per day the character can use the power. The exact time needed to regain Charges varies with the special effect of the power.” If you have 1 Charge that recovers once an hour you can only use it 24 times a day. Yes, 24 Charges that recover once a day is +¼ while 1 Charge that recovers once an hour is -1 ¼, but it’s possible to use all 24 Charges in one battle and how often does a battle last all day.

Now there is a line under Recoverable Charges: “Generally a character should not be allowed to use Recoverable Charges to simulate Charges that return to him on a quicker than once-per-day basis, but the GM can allow this if he thinks it’s appropriate.” This can be interpreted to mean Decreased Recovery Time is valid, but incompatible with Recoverable Charges without the GM’s permission.

I would agree END Reserve or Extra Time plus Delayed Effect pass the smell test better than 1 Charge with Decreased Recovery Time, but 1C w/DRT is a simpler mechanic that doesn’t increase the Active Points in the power (unless it recovers more often than the next phase) when you’re trying represent a limitation on a power. Limiting the Extra Time limitation so it works the way you want to is probably the best way to go, but if feels clunky to me.

[GamePhil]

Re: Power "Cooldown": how to write up

 

I’ve reread the passage on Charges. I found nothing that indisputably says it's not legal.[/font]

 

Well, I was refering to the idea of using the Increased Recovery Time option in reverse, so that the Limitation is worth less the faster it recovers. I suppose I shouldn't say illegal so much as not mentioned, though, and as I said, I like the idea.

 

Not disagreeing with any of your thoughts, which seem sound, just clarifying what I meant.