Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Striking Appearance works Mechanically like Positive Reputation - you gain a bonus to certain Rolls in situations in which your appearance plays an important part.

 

True, but Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie(the game world versions, anyway), for example, have both and can apply both to the appropriate interaction skills and PRE attacks.

 

You can be physically attractive and then even more attractive because you're famous for being the sexiest man or woman in the world.

 

For me personally, it's a terrible burden, but I somehow manage.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Umm... wow. I'd forgotten Miss Hayward was so well endowed. :bounce:

 

Sometimes a picture - even black & white - is worth 1000 words.

 

It's not just what she's got, it's what she does with it when you're watching...

 

Hmm, while we're talking COM, how about Marylin Monroe at her peak?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

It's not just what she's got, it's what she does with it when you're watching...

 

Hmm, while we're talking COM, how about Marylin Monroe at her peak?

 

Which peak would that be?

[James Gillen]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

What about Humphrey Bogart? He wasn't handsome in a conventional way (at least more than normally) but he had amazing charisma (a large part of which came from hard-earned skill as one of the greatest film actors of his era if not the greatest)?

 

Would he have a variation on Striking Appearance, or is a high PRE enough to reflect his ability to keep people's attention?

 

Bogart would be an obvious example of the high PRE compensating for average looks.

 

JG

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Where Rita scores (and that is a surprisingly appropriate word...) is in the implication about what she might do with what she's got. Looks are all well and good, and very nice but I'm reminded of what my friend Pip told me when we were delivering bread for Mr Crusty (too much information? Best not read on then ): ugly girls try harder.

 

OK, not terribly PC (he was also of the opinion that you did not 'look at the mantlepiece whilst stoking the fire'. I'm quite sure I have no idea what he means) but there is a real nugget of truth in there: it is not (just) what you've got so much as what you can make people think you're willing to do with it.

 

You can have two objectively gorgeous people but only one of them might be thought of as sexy because he (or she) gives an observer a certain impression through body language and for that matter language language. It is unlikely that someone who is very good looking but terribly aloof, who gives the impression that they are too good for you, is going to have much positive impact on interaction skills. On the other hand someone who gives the impression that they'd be...very grateful...if you just looked the other way for a moment, will.

 

A dirty mind in a clean body is about as sexy as it gets. Ms Hayworth certainly had a clean body, and certainly gave the impression of a dirty mind. You have to have a look that is appropriate for the impression you want to give.

 

Humphrey Bogart is no different: he was not flirty and sexy, he was cool and competent: his look fitted that - someone who was reliable and solid, but perhaps a more than a little dangerous.

 

It is that harmony of appearance and personality (or at least projected personality) that makes someone attractive. Of course, to complicate matters further, what is being seen and what is being interpreted varies from observer to observer.

 

In Hero terms, what matters is that some people are better at getting their way than others, generally or in particular circumstances. That is easily enough engineered by skill levels or extra PRE, perhaps only useable in certain situations.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

For "real world" or "realistic" SA, I'd tend to believe the upper bound is in the 3-4 level range. For "cinematic" SA, I'd tend to go a bit higher, in the ballpark of 4, 5, or even 6 levels for extraordinary exemplars of beauty and sex appeal who have been transformed by expert makeup, hair styling, dramatic lighting and masterful use of facial expressions and body language into legendary icons symbolizing "sex", "romance" and "beauty". Obviously, in a supers game or when dealing with truly supernatural or superhumanly attractive characters, the sky's the limit. But as a general rule, take the real life actor or actress, spitball what you think their level of attractiveness IRL is, then add 1-3 levels to that to get what the appropriate level of SA for a character "played by" them would be (in circumstances where the character's attractiveness is played up cinematically, and where it's a crucial element of the story.)

 

Another observation is that most people IRL don't have "universal" SA, but almost everyone in cinematic/dramatic genres does--the femme fatale doesn't get a shrug and "eh, doesn't do anything for me" from every other male in the film (unless those other males happen not to "respond" to femmes, period). Insisting on realism for social interactions while blandly accepting genre conventions for all the combat elements of the campaign is likely to lead to a bunch of frustrated roleplayers, IME. If they want to leave women swooning or be able to cloud men's minds with a wink and a smile, let 'em.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Which peak would that be?

 

Why, the Grand Tetons, of course!

 

(That's a joke that will only be funny to people who knos what the phrase means in the original language...)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Why, the Grand Tetons, of course!

 

(That's a joke that will only be funny to people who knos what the phrase means in the original language...)

 

I can guess

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

For "real world" or "realistic" SA, I'd tend to believe the upper bound is in the 3-4 level range. For "cinematic" SA, I'd tend to go a bit higher, in the ballpark of 4, 5, or even 6 levels for extraordinary exemplars of beauty and sex appeal who have been transformed by expert makeup, hair styling, dramatic lighting and masterful use of facial expressions and body language into legendary icons symbolizing "sex", "romance" and "beauty". Obviously, in a supers game or when dealing with truly supernatural or superhumanly attractive characters, the sky's the limit. But as a general rule, take the real life actor or actress, spitball what you think their level of attractiveness IRL is, then add 1-3 levels to that to get what the appropriate level of SA for a character "played by" them would be (in circumstances where the character's attractiveness is played up cinematically, and where it's a crucial element of the story.)

 

Another observation is that most people IRL don't have "universal" SA, but almost everyone in cinematic/dramatic genres does--the femme fatale doesn't get a shrug and "eh, doesn't do anything for me" from every other male in the film (unless those other males happen not to "respond" to femmes, period). Insisting on realism for social interactions while blandly accepting genre conventions for all the combat elements of the campaign is likely to lead to a bunch of frustrated roleplayers, IME. If they want to leave women swooning or be able to cloud men's minds with a wink and a smile, let 'em.

 

....hmmmm....

 

In cinema there is often a lot of tension created for the audience by making them think that the femme fatale has 'successfully' seduced our hero, but they are in fact just leading them on.

 

I'm really not sure how much of an effect 'striking appearance' could have on someone. Absolutely it is important in a seduction attempt, if the aim is to wind up in bed, an attractive and willing potential partner is a big incentive.

 

However, most 'beautiful people' use their sex appeal to get close to their target and then simply steal any information they need (at least it seems that way in cinema): it is comparatively rare that anyone would simply divulge secret information or act against their own best interests for a 'sexy' person except in the arena of sex.

 

Sex appeal.striking appearance is more of an introduction than an end in itself.

 

I'm not sure that we model that very well: if you want even cinematic verisimilitude in your rpg then a very different approach to social maneouvering has to be taken.

 

Striking Appearance/Sex Appeal gets you noticed and it gets you into proximity: it doesn't, even for the most fatal femme, get you handed the top secret plans for the next VIPER base. It will get you to a place where you can obtain them, but that is about it. Hmm....it doesn't do that INSTANTLY - perhaps if you spend weeks or months working on a target and have them twisted round your little finger, maybe - but no one, except in cartoons, turns up, snaps their fingers, and gets whatever they want.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

....hmmmm....

 

In cinema there is often a lot of tension created for the audience by making them think that the femme fatale has 'successfully' seduced our hero, but they are in fact just leading them on.

 

I'm really not sure how much of an effect 'striking appearance' could have on someone. Absolutely it is important in a seduction attempt, if the aim is to wind up in bed, an attractive and willing potential partner is a big incentive.

 

However, most 'beautiful people' use their sex appeal to get close to their target and then simply steal any information they need (at least it seems that way in cinema): it is comparatively rare that anyone would simply divulge secret information or act against their own best interests for a 'sexy' person except in the arena of sex.

 

Sex appeal.striking appearance is more of an introduction than an end in itself.

 

I'm not sure that we model that very well: if you want even cinematic verisimilitude in your rpg then a very different approach to social maneouvering has to be taken.

 

Striking Appearance/Sex Appeal gets you noticed and it gets you into proximity: it doesn't, even for the most fatal femme, get you handed the top secret plans for the next VIPER base. It will get you to a place where you can obtain them, but that is about it. Hmm....it doesn't do that INSTANTLY - perhaps if you spend weeks or months working on a target and have them twisted round your little finger, maybe - but no one, except in cartoons, turns up, snaps their fingers, and gets whatever they want.

 

Unless you're James Bond. In which case, you'll get what you want within minutes, hours, or at most a few days, using your 18-23 PRE, various interaction skills (he probably has all of them), Striking Appearance +2, Rep (sometimes), etc.

Batman uses his PRE, Striking Appearance (OIF: Costume), Rep and Interrogation skill to get information out of criminals in 1-5 minutes, tops.

Interaction skills, including those involving appearance, certain can and do achieve rapid results in various forms of genre fiction (and in real life). For a more mundane real world version of this, consider the beautiful "stranded motorist" who gets someone to drive her to the nearest town, calls a tow truck for her, and with a little flirting, even springs for her motel room and a meal. All of that made easier via strategic use of appearance and a little Charm and Persuasion, perhaps.

 

I don't think I was arguing that it works(or should work) like Mind Control, just that it's more effective than a lot of folks here seem willing to acknowledge. The easiest proof of that is to consider any friends you've had in life who've been turned into a drooling, moon-faced idiot in a fairly short space of time by a pretty face, a smile and a nice bod, then multiply that effect by a factor between 2 and 10 to get the appropriate cinematic level of effectiveness. Love, lust and infatuation all make us stupid sometimes. In the constraints of cinematic realism, the process tends to get sped up quite a bit.

[Vondy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

In a game that allows for dramatic interaction and non-combat solutions SA could prove extremely (situationally) effective when combined with a high native presence and good interaction skills. Also, I don't see the fact that it might function in a similar fashion to mind control as problematic. Powers (or even super-skills) are not appropriate to all genres and styles of play. A gamemaster might prefer to run a heroic game with talents, perks, and skills but no powers/super-skills and instead model cinematic effects with high skill rolls or big combos of modifiers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Unless you're James Bond. In which case, you'll get what you want within minutes, hours, or at most a few days, using your 18-23 PRE, various interaction skills (he probably has all of them), Striking Appearance +2, Rep (sometimes), etc.

Batman uses his PRE, Striking Appearance (OIF: Costume), Rep and Interrogation skill to get information out of criminals in 1-5 minutes, tops.

Interaction skills, including those involving appearance, certain can and do achieve rapid results in various forms of genre fiction (and in real life). For a more mundane real world version of this, consider the beautiful "stranded motorist" who gets someone to drive her to the nearest town, calls a tow truck for her, and with a little flirting, even springs for her motel room and a meal. All of that made easier via strategic use of appearance and a little Charm and Persuasion, perhaps.

 

I don't think I was arguing that it works(or should work) like Mind Control, just that it's more effective than a lot of folks here seem willing to acknowledge. The easiest proof of that is to consider any friends you've had in life who've been turned into a drooling, moon-faced idiot in a fairly short space of time by a pretty face, a smile and a nice bod, then multiply that effect by a factor between 2 and 10 to get the appropriate cinematic level of effectiveness. Love, lust and infatuation all make us stupid sometimes. In the constraints of cinematic realism, the process tends to get sped up quite a bit.

 

Bond's women tend to be people who are either looking for a way out, are perhaps rather flightly to start off with or who are into things so deeply ANY way out looks good. Sure he's a good looking fella but he doesn't get free info from major players and the women he does seduce rarely have that much information - again they tend to be stepping stones.

 

As to friends turning to moon faced idiots: sure they do stupid stuff, like agree to go to Ikea, but they don't hand over state secrets or agree to smuggle weapons through customs: this stuff has real limits, most of which are contextual.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Bond's women tend to be people who are either looking for a way out, are perhaps rather flightly to start off with or who are into things so deeply ANY way out looks good. Sure he's a good looking fella but he doesn't get free info from major players and the women he does seduce rarely have that much information - again they tend to be stepping stones.

 

As to friends turning to moon faced idiots: sure they do stupid stuff, like agree to go to Ikea, but they don't hand over state secrets or agree to smuggle weapons through customs: this stuff has real limits, most of which are contextual.

 

They will do stuff they'd normally be against doing, though, like picking up hitchhikers (because this particular one happens to be extremely attractive) or going way out of their way to run an errand. A lot of movies start out with some poor sap helping out a damsel in distress, and in the process getting in way over their heads ( "Into the Night", with Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Pfeiffer, is a modern classic in this genre, imo). "Sunshine" in the film "Harlem Nights" is another example of getting someone to do things they normally wouldn't do.

 

You seem to be focused on the info-gathering aspects of interaction skills. They are useful for quite a bit more than that. I don't recall arguing that Charm will enable one to get people to do things they're strongly against doing at the drop of a hat. But it will, as you said earlier, put you in a much better position to steal the Viper base plans, or to drug the security officer, or to lure Magneto's prison guard into the bathroom, where you can inject him with a metallic mineral solution.

Having seen all of the James Bond films, I can't accept that generalization. He seduces about 5 dozen women altogether, and some of them do in fact have useful information. None of them require a terribly long time to woo. He also tends to get the bad guys to reveal a lot more info than they'd probably like to have (Conversation), while they think they've put him in an inescapable deathtrap.

At legendary or superhuman levels, Striking Appearance, Charm and other interaction skills might well work very similarly to Mind Control, getting people to do things they not only would normally be strongly against doing, but perhaps even have psych lims against doing. It's pretty much the definition of "exceptional circumstances" to have a goddess sidle up and ask for a "favor".

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

When we moved into our current neighborhood my wife and I left for a couple of hours with the little kids and Our then 16 year old daughter stayed at home. When we returned she had gotten a neighborhood boy to empty our entire mobile storage pod with our stuff in it for her! he was exhausted sweaty and tired and happy as a clam to have done all this work for a girl he just met. She does stuff like this all the time. We all laugh she has mind control. So I believe in the p0wer of good looks and charm if applied properly.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

It's pretty much the definition of "exceptional circumstances" to have a goddess sidle up and ask for a "favor".

 

Not quite the same thing but made for one of the most determined to succeed adventures my group has done . The Greek gods ( inspired by Enforcer's versions) hangout in secret among humans in my Supers world. The goddess Hera ( as Juno Queen ) calls the group. "Athena gave me this number" and meets them for lunch " Normally I would ask Athena to take care of this but she's unavailable so I have a favor to ask". The rallying cry became "we're on a mission for the Goddess". There was no debate no hesitation just full steam ahead.

 

When Athena ( as Academic Consultant Minerva Pallas) called them later and thanked them for filling in for her . It was one super proud bunch of Heroes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

When we moved into our current neighborhood my wife and I left for a couple of hours with the little kids and Our then 16 year old daughter stayed at home. When we returned she had gotten a neighborhood boy to empty our entire mobile storage pod with our stuff in it for her! he was exhausted sweaty and tired and happy as a clam to have done all this work for a girl he just met. She does stuff like this all the time. We all laugh she has mind control. So I believe in the p0wer of good looks and charm if applied properly.

 

I'm not saying that good looks coupled with a willingness to use them can not be a powerful motivational force, but I am saying that good looks alone are not enough and that, crucially "I'm gorgeous! should not be a substitute for role playing.

 

By that, let me be clear, I'm not suggesting that the talented actors amongst the players should get better results than others, but you need to consider most situations as a sort of social contract:

 

1. I want something

 

2. You can give it to me

 

3. I'm willing to give you something in return...or make you believe I will

 

4. Do we have a deal?

 

Now good looks tend to set the standard for what we are talking about in step 3: it could be anything from being willing to spend some time in their company to something more involved, but good looks make that sort of negotiation chip more valuable, so you can get more for it...but there remain limits.

 

I do not think that, even in the case of a God(dess) of Sexiness, that 'Striking Appearance' should be all they need: they WILL have some sort of mind control or other appropriate power to accomplish their aims: looking gorgeous can only get you so far.

 

I mean, if you want a character who is 'Too Pretty To Die', you don;t buy Striking Appearance and hope people won't shoot you, you buy Resistant Defences and set the sfx to 'good looks'.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

I'm not saying that good looks coupled with a willingness to use them can not be a powerful motivational force, but I am saying that good looks alone are not enough and that, crucially "I'm gorgeous! should not be a substitute for role playing.

 

By that, let me be clear, I'm not suggesting that the talented actors amongst the players should get better results than others, but you need to consider most situations as a sort of social contract:

 

1. I want something

 

2. You can give it to me

 

3. I'm willing to give you something in return...or make you believe I will

 

4. Do we have a deal?

 

Now good looks tend to set the standard for what we are talking about in step 3: it could be anything from being willing to spend some time in their company to something more involved, but good looks make that sort of negotiation chip more valuable, so you can get more for it...but there remain limits.

 

I do not think that, even in the case of a God(dess) of Sexiness, that 'Striking Appearance' should be all they need: they WILL have some sort of mind control or other appropriate power to accomplish their aims: looking gorgeous can only get you so far.

 

I mean, if you want a character who is 'Too Pretty To Die', you don;t buy Striking Appearance and hope people won't shoot you, you buy Resistant Defences and set the sfx to 'good looks'.

 

I think you should get what you pay for. If you pay for a 25 PRE, 3 levels of SA, and 5 points of Charm(+1 to roll), you've just spent 29 points on being able to use your charm and good looks to get what you want. It does require some role play, yes, and takes more time than simple mind control would, but it's going to have a major impact on the game(in situations where it's appropriate), or else the player will be frustrated.

If the Sex Goddess has a 50 PRE, 6 levels of SA, and 15 points of Charm(+6 to roll), then they've spent 73 points on getting what they want using their charm and good looks. In appropriate situations, using role play, that is actually in the ballpark of "Charm as mind control" (applying appropriately hefty minuses, the character still has a meaningful chance of success).

 

I don't think you always need to buy a power to simulate a hyper-effective or extraordinary talent/skill/attribute. Interaction mechanics already exist to model situations like that. We already have the Extraordinary skill rule, too. Might as well use it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

I think you should get what you pay for. If you pay for a 25 PRE, 3 levels of SA, and 5 points of Charm(+1 to roll), you've just spent 29 points on being able to use your charm and good looks to get what you want. It does require some role play, yes, and takes more time than simple mind control would, but it's going to have a major impact on the game(in situations where it's appropriate), or else the player will be frustrated.

If the Sex Goddess has a 50 PRE, 6 levels of SA, and 15 points of Charm(+6 to roll), then they've spent 73 points on getting what they want using their charm and good looks. In appropriate situations, using role play, that is actually in the ballpark of "Charm as mind control" (applying appropriately hefty minuses, the character still has a meaningful chance of success).

 

I don't think you always need to buy a power to simulate a hyper-effective or extraordinary talent/skill/attribute. Interaction mechanics already exist to model situations like that. We already have the Extraordinary skill rule, too. Might as well use it.

 

 

Hmm. You can use Acrobatics to get a surprise bonus in combat, but it is limited to +3 even if you bought 50 DEX, and spent 27 points for Acrobatics (Acrobatics + 12). You've spent 97 points and got Acrobatics on 48 or less, but so what? You still only get +3 with surprise maneouvres. Skills can only do so much, social skills shouldn't have unlimited potential any more than any other type of skill.

 

Of course Striking Appearance also gives you bonuses with PRE attacks, you have the equivalent of 65 PRE, in the above example, for PRE attacks.

 

That is a different kettle of fish entirely: it has nothing to do with skill use.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Hmm. You can use Acrobatics to get a surprise bonus in combat, but it is limited to +3 even if you bought 50 DEX, and spent 27 points for Acrobatics (Acrobatics + 12). You've spent 97 points and got Acrobatics on 48 or less, but so what? You still only get +3 with surprise maneouvres. Skills can only do so much, social skills shouldn't have unlimited potential any more than any other type of skill.

 

Of course Striking Appearance also gives you bonuses with PRE attacks, you have the equivalent of 65 PRE, in the above example, for PRE attacks.

 

That is a different kettle of fish entirely: it has nothing to do with skill use.

 

This flies in the face of the ESR, though--one of the examples of Extraordinary skill use is using persuasion to convince someone of something that is contradicted by observed reality; another is using Stealth to hide in plain sight.

Acrobatics can be used for more than a combat bonus--a superhuman or legendary level of it could be used to do things no human acrobat in the real world could ever possibly achieve (walking a millimeter thin teflon tightrope greased with bacon fat during a gale, e.g.)

Being good-looking isn't merely beneficial to making a good first impression, it's helpful in making an ongoing impression on another person. When coupled with appropriate interaction skills, it's a very handy benefit to manipulating and/or motivating people in certain ways. At superhuman levels, the benefits scale up appropriately.

It's true that no level of computer programming skill will allow you to become a better fisherman, but a 25- might let you hack NORAD and launch an ICBM (at least, in a cinematic world). That you could also simulate this using Cyberkinesis is irrelevant. After all, there are many different ways of accomplishing the same thing in Hero. That one isn't your (or my) cup of tea doesn't automatically invalidate it.

[Nothere]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

O.k. First for the original point of the thread. I'd go with 18. True she's gourgeous, but 20 in the maximum human level, so I can't quite follow you to 23.

 

Now for what has become. Mind control is a bit of an overstatment, but as the dozens of crimes of passion indicate good looks and sex appeal can get people to go aginst there natures.

 

Game wise it's like this Supergourgeous needs to see the Viper plans. No it's not mind control so she doesen't walk up to him and say "I have a low cut dress show me the plans." The event more goes. She meets him in a bar and says "I have a low cut dress lets go back to your place." At his place she says. "Wow you have one of those computer thingies, I like smart men. Are you any good with it?" She notes his password as he signs on to the Viper network. "Wow your so good at this, I'm only good at (insert sexual induendo/act) They must trust you with important stuff. What's like the big important thing they gave you?" He calls up the plans for a few moments. She memories them. "Uhm o.k. I don't get it. Let's ..oh no I'm late for pilates. Bye."

[megaplayboy]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

One of the problems with going the "write the super-skill up as a power" route is inefficiency (you often winding up spending a lot of points to get a narrower version of the power, and there's a lot of overlap between it and your high skill level(s)). Another is that the power tends to work differently from the skill, and so you have to tweak things quite a bit to make the simulated effect go smoothly. The third is, obviously, you just spent 20-30 points towards that skill level, and now you have to spend another 30 points to get that additional level of effect (which also happens to obviate the need for those 30 points of skill).

Any level of interaction skill could conceivably be written up as a mental power. Climbing could also be written up as Clinging with a roll required. Stealth could be a limited form of invisibility. That it can be done doesn't mean it's the proper way to go.

Social skills tend to take a lot longer than powers to put into effect (time periods that render them useless for combat situations), are incredibly difficult to perform under duress, are affected greatly by situational variables, and always carry a risk of failure, even when successfully performed. In light of that, I see no problem with permitting incredibly skilled practitioners who have a base or modified roll of 18+ to attempt to do something not normally possible to do with that skill, but which legendary practioners are alleged to have done and which would be a natural extension or continuance of what the skill does. Charm and persuasion are designed to foster belief, to foster warm emotion, friendship or passion, and to persuade someone that a particular course of action is more desirable. Taking those abilities to a level beyond the ordinary, we can still see how their parameters might be limited, while at the same time permitting feats one might normally associate with use of mental powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

O.k. First for the original point of the thread. I'd go with 18. True she's gourgeous, but 20 in the maximum human level, so I can't quite follow you to 23.

 

Now for what has become. Mind control is a bit of an overstatment, but as the dozens of crimes of passion indicate good looks and sex appeal can get people to go aginst there natures.

 

Game wise it's like this Supergourgeous needs to see the Viper plans. No it's not mind control so she doesen't walk up to him and say "I have a low cut dress show me the plans." The event more goes. She meets him in a bar and says "I have a low cut dress lets go back to your place." At his place she says. "Wow you have one of those computer thingies, I like smart men. Are you any good with it?" She notes his password as he signs on to the Viper network. "Wow your so good at this, I'm only good at (insert sexual induendo/act) They must trust you with important stuff. What's like the big important thing they gave you?" He calls up the plans for a few moments. She memories them. "Uhm o.k. I don't get it. Let's ..oh no I'm late for pilates. Bye."

 

Absolutely: I'm not saying being gorgeous can not get you the plans for the VIPER base, I'm saying it is not simply a matter of rolling: it will get you to a place where you can get the plans.

 

I'd have no problem at all with this kind of scenario (although there would probably be multiple rolls along the way and some role play opportunity).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

This flies in the face of the ESR, though--one of the examples of Extraordinary skill use is using persuasion to convince someone of something that is contradicted by observed reality; another is using Stealth to hide in plain sight.

Acrobatics can be used for more than a combat bonus--a superhuman or legendary level of it could be used to do things no human acrobat in the real world could ever possibly achieve (walking a millimeter thin teflon tightrope greased with bacon fat during a gale, e.g.)

Being good-looking isn't merely beneficial to making a good first impression, it's helpful in making an ongoing impression on another person. When coupled with appropriate interaction skills, it's a very handy benefit to manipulating and/or motivating people in certain ways. At superhuman levels, the benefits scale up appropriately.

It's true that no level of computer programming skill will allow you to become a better fisherman, but a 25- might let you hack NORAD and launch an ICBM (at least, in a cinematic world). That you could also simulate this using Cyberkinesis is irrelevant. After all, there are many different ways of accomplishing the same thing in Hero. That one isn't your (or my) cup of tea doesn't automatically invalidate it.

 

 

You can hack NORAD because NORAD is hackable, but I doubt you simply sit down, crack your fingers, type for half a minute at frantic speed, then sit back and laugh as the world ends in radioactive fire.

 

You'd probably need to spend days to months hacking into sub systems and working out passwords and so on and so forth. You'd probably need special equipment and may have to write software of your own.

 

It is like assuming that, once you get to a certain skill level you can do anything at all in that skills purview. Things you can do become easier and quicker, sure, but you still have to take the intervening steps, or the task becomes something you can't do.

 

That is my cup of tea.

[Vulcan]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

Not quite the same thing but made for one of the most determined to succeed adventures my group has done . The Greek gods ( inspired by Enforcer's versions) hangout in secret among humans in my Supers world. The goddess Hera ( as Juno Queen ) calls the group. "Athena gave me this number" and meets them for lunch " Normally I would ask Athena to take care of this but she's unavailable so I have a favor to ask". The rallying cry became "we're on a mission for the Goddess". There was no debate no hesitation just full steam ahead.

 

When Athena ( as Academic Consultant Minerva Pallas) called them later and thanked them for filling in for her . It was one super proud bunch of Heroes.

 

So that's why that bunch of mortals crashed my workshop! I should have known Hera was behind it somehow...

 

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Silly Question: Rita Hayworth's COM?

 

One of the problems with going the "write the super-skill up as a power" route is inefficiency (you often winding up spending a lot of points to get a narrower version of the power, and there's a lot of overlap between it and your high skill level(s)). Another is that the power tends to work differently from the skill, and so you have to tweak things quite a bit to make the simulated effect go smoothly. The third is, obviously, you just spent 20-30 points towards that skill level, and now you have to spend another 30 points to get that additional level of effect (which also happens to obviate the need for those 30 points of skill).

Any level of interaction skill could conceivably be written up as a mental power. Climbing could also be written up as Clinging with a roll required. Stealth could be a limited form of invisibility. That it can be done doesn't mean it's the proper way to go.

Social skills tend to take a lot longer than powers to put into effect (time periods that render them useless for combat situations), are incredibly difficult to perform under duress, are affected greatly by situational variables, and always carry a risk of failure, even when successfully performed. In light of that, I see no problem with permitting incredibly skilled practitioners who have a base or modified roll of 18+ to attempt to do something not normally possible to do with that skill, but which legendary practioners are alleged to have done and which would be a natural extension or continuance of what the skill does. Charm and persuasion are designed to foster belief, to foster warm emotion, friendship or passion, and to persuade someone that a particular course of action is more desirable. Taking those abilities to a level beyond the ordinary, we can still see how their parameters might be limited, while at the same time permitting feats one might normally associate with use of mental powers.

 

You can use extraordinary skill rules to do the impossible, the system permits that: I don't have to. I would not allow someone to scale a sheer glass wall using extraordinary climbing unless they could somehow explain how - astonishingly - it might be accomplished.

 

To me, that is the difference: I'd allow 'I cup my hands forming a partial vacuum, allowing me to move up the wall as if I had suction cups' - probably - but they wouldn't be scooting up the wall like a gecko - it would be slow and difficult even with extraordinary skill.

 

I wouldn't allow 'I push my hands against the surface until the surface of my skin fuses with the glass at a microscopic level'. I don't see that as something 'climbing' would allow you to do, even if doing that would allow you to climb.

 

Buying a power means you don't have to justify it to me, and I can't generally call you out on it.

 

It is not a matter of how many points you spent. I don't care. If you want to be able to do impossible stuff, (and I don't just mean 'so difficult it seems impossible) then buy something that normal people don't have.

 

Yes it is arbitrary, yes it is me exercising GM fiat, but 'Ridiculous Skill Use' (calling it 'Extraordinary' imbues it with too much grace) causes problems:

 

1. That way lies only madness: I'm buying a skill with generating massive plasma bursts by mind power...

 

2. The rules just break down, and that sort of defeats the point of having a rules system.