Confessions of Infidelity

[Dragonfly]

Dear HERO fans,

 

I'm an old-time HERO player. Although Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was my first RPG crush (and we are still sometime friends in the form of Castles and Crusades), I met the HERO System in the form of Champions 2nd Edition back in 1984 and instantly fell in love. Although I was with a group that played every game under the sun, the HERO System was always my system of choice, and I ran long, involved, successful campaigns with her for almost twenty years. It was a wonderful partnership, and she only seemed to get better with age.

 

Sadly, we started to drift apart. Some say that she matured. To me, she got all conservative, and nit-picky, and simply wasn't as attractive as she used to be. That's when I started looking around. There was this hussy, Silver Age Sentinels, that I had a brief fling with, but that didn't go anywhere. Then Mutants and Masterminds walked onto the scene. She wowed me. She was so pretty, so glossy, so ... elegant in her simplicity. She also seemed perfect for my interests at the time. Intrigued, I started spending time with her and by the end of 2004 I brought things to an end with the HERO System. It was sad, it was weird, but at the time it felt right.

 

I had a lot of fun with Mutants and Masterminds, but as the years went by I began to realize that I missed the HERO System, and started seeing her again as a friend. We decided to run an Classic Champions campaign as a means of remembering the good old days. She insisted on using her 5ER rules-set, and I agreed - as long as she would allow me to invite Professor Muerte, Death Commando, Arrowhead, and the rest of the crew that we used to run with. Not only did we have a blast, but I rediscovered her virtues all over again. Furthermore, I learned that the HERO System is getting all gussied up! I know this isn't for my sake - her transformation is just the end result of that path she started down back in 2002. Nevertheless, I'm very excited about the new look. Not only does she seem to have retained and refined all of her substance, but she is now just as glossy and beautiful as Mutants and Masterminds ever was! She's even returned to her classic colors, which only brings a smile to my face. Some complain that she no longer flashes us images of Doctor Destroyer bashing Seeker to a pulp, but that sort of thing is for a Champions book - not for a HERO System core book. I much prefer the simple blue and gold cover over those cross-genre attempts that she was sporting back in the nineties. In short, the HERO System has me once again. I may not deserve her, given that I abandoned her all those years ago, but she seems forgiving. I am happy to be back, and look forward to the future. As for Mutants and Masterminds? She's moved on too. A couple of my fellow GMs have taken to her, so I'll undoubtedly see her around the gaming table. When I GM, however, it'll be Hero System 6E all the way. Long live the DBBs!

 

Best,

 

Dragonfly

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

While I on the other hand call myself a system Agnostic. It's all good as long as you spread the love.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

She is a harsh mistress. LOL. Welcome back. If you want tips for simplifying and bringing back the good ol' Hero spirit, they're here in plenty. Some folks have pushed on past all the rules complications and such, and I think both our crazy ramblings here and many of the 6E revisions will help you satisfy some of you nostalgia.

[Dragonfly]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Hi Prestidigitator,

 

Thanks for the welcome back! It's good to be back. I was having fun in my initial post. My reasons for leaving the HERO System were somewhat more complex and specific than I made them sound. Here are a few:

 

1) Transparency: I've been playing HERO System forever, so the system (just about ANY version of the system) is basically transparent to me. PD, ED, OCV, DCV, hexes and all the other terminology simply doesn't get in the way. I can roll the dice, do the math in my head, and figure out the consequences without talking the math out loud. I could hear "six hexes" and picture real world distances in my head. Many of my players, however, simply couldn't do that (or so it seemed). In short, I could play the game and experience it like watching a movie, while they would play the game and feel like they were shooting a movie, where they could see the sound equipment, the stage, and all the other "scafolding" behind the illusion.

 

Right now our group is much smaller, which makes this less of an issue, for some reason. Also, while this is essentially the same gaming group, they seem to be taking to HERO better this time around. (Again, maybe it's group size, or maybe they actually learned more than I thought the first several times around).

 

Sixth Edition has me VERY excited, because it should make things go even smoother. Decoupling the formerly figured characteristics will mean less math for folks (even though it's simple math). More significant, however, is the move to meters rather than hexes. This will remove one of the major stumbling blocks for some of my players, who always saw the HERO System as essentially a war game.

 

2) Tone: This was a secondary reason for my leaving. I used to have a blast reading earlier editions of the HERO System (or of Champions). The early stuff was great, with Foxbat running his XP extortion racket, or with Goodman's advice for building more effective characters. It just felt like Stan Lee wrote the damn thing. Fourth Edition got rid of much of this, but still remained enjoyable to read. The tone seemed lighter. I found 5th Edition to be somewhat boring to read. It was just too technical, and the writing didn't pop. Also, the layout, some of the new art, all of that combined just turned me off. Even the black/green color scheme turned me off. The game became less fun, exciting, light-hearted and in FEEL, if not in actual play, and I think this had more of an effect on my enjoyment of it than I thought it would. I actually stuck with it for a while. I bought Star Hero, Fantasy Hero, Champions, etc., but I just didn't like it. Even Aaron Alston's Champions seemed boring and dark to me by comparison.

 

The new version has me excited. Needless to say, the art, layout, etc. (from what I've seen so far) is fantastic. THIS won't be a boring book to look at. As superficial as it seems, even the blue and gold cover brightens my gaming table in a way that 5E didn't. More importantly, and tell me if I'm imagining this, but from what little has been revealed thus far, Steve's writing has changed. I won't say it's gotten better, because I would never have called Steve's earlier writing bad. It was just a style that didn't appeal to my particular tastes. Now, however, the writing seems more accessible to me somehow. I guess nine years of writing these books will refine one's style, or maybe I have enough distance from the system to have me appreciate it all the more.

 

3) Design Philosophy: I remember being slightly disappointed when the last edition came out. There were a few debates that had me end up on the losing side (the great linked debate, MPAs, etc.), but none of these would have been enough to push me away. I just felt like the game didn't innovate enough when it had a chance to do so.

 

I see the wisdom of this now. We were lucky that the game survived at all, so tampering with it at that point and pissing off the fan base would have been too risky. When 6E was announced I was skeptical, but every single tidbit that Steve has shared about the system thus far is one that jibes with my sensibilities. I short, this seems to be an incredibly thoughtful evolution, and I'm very appreciative of the work that's been put into it.

 

 

Anyway, nostalgia definitely brought me back to HERO. I started exploring old style gaming after Gary Gygax died. The appeal of the new stuff, however, isn't nostalgia. I'm looking to the future, and planning on making HERO my primary system all over again. It just looks that good, and I missed it that much. It's time.

 

I guess I should wait until I see the DBB's in full, but at this point I've built up a lot of faith in Steve and his team. Thanks to all of you!

 

Best,

 

Dragonfly

[CourtFool]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

I am on the other side of this coin. M&M is being good to me. She has done everything I have asked of her. 6E is going to have to wow me to bring me back.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

While I on the other hand call myself a system Agnostic. It's all good as long as you spread the love.

Tramp.

[Dragonfly]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

I am on the other side of this coin. M&M is being good to me. She has done everything I have asked of her. 6E is going to have to wow me to bring me back.

 

Hey, don't get me wrong. Mutants and Masterminds is a GREAT system, and I'm still very fond of it. It pretty much did everything I wanted it to do. I consider it pretty much as flexible or as complete as HERO, at least as far as superheroes are concerned. It didn't, however, solve too many of my issues at the gaming table. Now, instead of players fiddling with rolling dice, subtracting defenses, and applying damage - they fiddle with just as long with calculating by how much a character missed a damage save, trying to figure out what that means in terms of effect, and then trying to remember the bruised/hurt effects for subsequent rounds. Same problem, different flavor. (Don't bother telling me its hyper simple math. I know it is. It's just the way my group rolls. They are really wonderful role-players, but systems get in their way.)

 

Some of it is just me. I have 20 years of playing HERO System wired into me. Rolling handfuls of dice appeals to me. HERO System stat blocks make more sense to me at a glance. I know the system like the back of my hand (at least up to 4th). It's comfortable for me, both because of its virtues and because of the years of experience that I have with it. It's just easier for me to call shots as a GM in it. Now, I actually know Mutants and Masterminds pretty well, but it's a different kind of knowing. It's more an intellectual grasp than it is an intuitive grasp. That's nothing to do with the system. I believe it stems from the fact that I was introduced to Mutants and Masterminds at a time when I was playing every other week (at most), while Champions was my game of choice when we would get together in the summer to play one, or two, games a DAY! (Those, were, the - DAAAAYS!)

 

Finally, there are a few other minor factors. Combat moves more quickly in Mutants and Masterminds. Some consider that a virtue. That's not necessarily the case for me. I like my superhero combats to last a little longer than they often (but not always) do in Mutants and Masterminds. The comics that I liked best growing up were those where a lot of interaction and drama occurred DURING combat. Now, these days I can also run a full session without a fight, but when a fight DOES happen - I prefer them at the length and pace that Champions tends to provide.

 

Much of this is tied to the bell curve for task resolution, which is a feature of HERO vs. Mutants and Masterminds. It's not that one is better than the other. Both can capture certain types of comic books. I just prefer the greater certainty offered by HERO System. It lends heroes a certain confidence in their abilities that I find lacking in Mutants and Masterminds because a "1" on a d20 comes up just too frequently. Again, I see how this emulates certain types of superheroic adventures (like when Superman has a full episode fight against Kalibak in Superman: The Animated Series, only to one-punch him in another episode), but I prefer more predictable results.

 

Finally, I have an interest in GMing multiple genres, but am finding it difficult to commit to learning new systems of play. I just have too much going on in my life, with kids, work, etc. Hollow Earth Expedition, for instance, is a fantastic pulp game. The system is fun and clever, as is the world. I own everything for the game, but I've only been able to play it once. We had a blast, but it's been so long between sessions that I feel like I have to relearn the system if we are going to play again. At this point in my busy life, I really need a reliable, all-purpose system. Mutants and Masterminds only does superheroes, so that leaves HERO - old reliable - to meet my RPG needs.

 

All that being said, this is mostly a matter of my own personal preference. I don't mean for a second to suggest that there is anything objectively superior about the HERO System, or that there is anything inferior about Mutants and Masterminds. Indeed, I consider both to be excellent games. As I mentioned in my first post, I'm glad that others in my group have taken to Mutants and Masterminds, because it means I'll get to play the game, at least on occasion. All of my GMing for the foreseeable future, however, will be in HERO.

 

Best,

 

Dragonfly

[GamePhil]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Welcome back. At least you cheated with a good game: I was trapped for years in the WoD, great game for those what like the setting and rules philosophy, really bad for me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Welcome back. At least you cheated with a good game: I was trapped for years in the WoD' date=' great game for those what like the setting and rules philosophy, really bad for me.[/quote']

 

Heh. I love WoD, but pretty much the whole time I'm thinking of how I could build similar powers in Hero (or how Hero already has a maneuver/mechanic to handle a given situation). Sometimes I could toolkit a little between them, but for a very long time I was basically (unsuccessfully) trying to get my main group of players to give Hero a chance.

 

I wasn't horrified at playing WoD instead in the mean time; it was the occasion that I actually had to stoop to playing a little D&D again (or have no group to play with) that really made my stomach turn. There was another group I played with sometimes that played D&D, but I was a little happier with it because they stuck with 2nd Edition and never really let the system get in their way, but added to it and mutilated it where it seemed appropriate.

[GamePhil]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Heh. I love WoD' date=' but pretty much the whole time I'm thinking of how I could build similar powers in Hero (or how Hero already has a maneuver/mechanic to handle a given situation).[/quote']

 

Yeah, I was constantly having that problem, plus the world as presented was both a bit too dark and sometimes a bit preachy for my tastes. I prefer also to have my rules rigorous and used for every type of PC, so the different rules based on what race you are were not to my liking.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Typical conversation with the gaming group I played with most often:

 

Other Player:

I'd really like to do a

some-interesting-genre/setting

game sometime.

Other Players:

Yeah. That'd be great!

Me:

Cool. I can set that up really easily in Hero. I'll run it next game session.

Other Player(s):

Yeah, yeah. We know you love Hero. We don't want to have to have math degrees to play / not interested in learning a new system right now / have existing characters, don't want to start another whole campaign / ....

Me:

But--

Other Player:

I know. Let's figure out how to do it in D20 / take 6 months to create our own oddball system we never actually use / play old existing game we've lost interest in 15 times already / go watch a movie / ....

 

[CourtFool]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

It's not that one is better than the other.

 

I certainly did not take anything you said as saying Hero was superior. I was merely piping in with my unsolicited two cents.

 

It lends heroes a certain confidence in their abilities that I find lacking in Mutants and Masterminds because a "1" on a d20 comes up just too frequently.

 

I would agree to this point if it were not for Taking 10 and Hero Points.

 

Finally' date=' I have an interest in GMing multiple genres, but am finding it difficult to commit to learning new systems of play.[/quote']

 

I would agree to this point if I had not reviewed Agents of Freedom and Warlocks and Warriors. I concede Mutants and Masterminds does not have the same flexibility and granularity as Hero. I prefer a highly cinematic game, regardless of genre. I find that Mutants and Masterminds is more than capable of doing highly cinematic games, not just Superheroes.

 

I am like you. I do not want to learn half a dozen different systems. I want one good ruleset that can handle any genre. Hero and Mutants and Masterminds do that for me. Thus far, I have found it easier to find players (forget about finding someone to run) for Mutants and Masterminds than Hero.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Typical conversation with the gaming group I played with most often:

Other Player:

I'd really like to do a

some-interesting-genre/setting

game sometime.

Other Players:

Yeah. That'd be great!

Me:

Cool. I can set that up really easily in Hero. I'll run it next game session.

Other Player(s):

Yeah, yeah. We know you love Hero. We don't want to have to have math degrees to play / not interested in learning a new system right now / have existing characters, don't want to start another whole campaign / ....

Me:

But--

Other Player:

I know. Let's figure out how to do it in D20 / take 6 months to create our own oddball system we never actually use / play old existing game we've lost interest in 15 times already / go watch a movie / ....

 

 

Hero is complicated only in the character creation stage; after that the mechanics and game play are straightforward, robust and flexible. I've always found that if you play down what is often piped as Hero's greatest asset - the ability to create and play any character you can imagine - you wind up with a much happier bunch of campers.

 

Either create the characters for them or with them.

 

Better yet don't even tell them they are playing Hero until they start telling you what a great game this is they are playing

 

Once they are 'into' Hero they can decide if they want to use the character customisation tools or not.

 

With ingrained attitudes it is more difficult. I'd suggest introducing game groups already set against Hero to the concepts by providing pre-built characters for a one off game, or very brief story arc. One of the first Hero games I ran for a group of friends at University (and we still play Hero - albeit not that often - 25 years later) I simply gave out character sketches and a physical and power description: there were character sheets, but they were all behind the GM screen. It divorced the role play from the system in play - and Hero chugged along running silent and deep below it all, making it work.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Hero is complicated only in the character creation stage; after that the mechanics and game play are straightforward, robust and flexible. I've always found that if you play down what is often piped as Hero's greatest asset - the ability to create and play any character you can imagine - you wind up with a much happier bunch of campers.

 

Either create the characters for them or with them.

 

Better yet don't even tell them they are playing Hero until they start telling you what a great game this is they are playing

 

Once they are 'into' Hero they can decide if they want to use the character customisation tools or not.

 

With ingrained attitudes it is more difficult. I'd suggest introducing game groups already set against Hero to the concepts by providing pre-built characters for a one off game, or very brief story arc. One of the first Hero games I ran for a group of friends at University (and we still play Hero - albeit not that often - 25 years later) I simply gave out character sketches and a physical and power description: there were character sheets, but they were all behind the GM screen. It divorced the role play from the system in play - and Hero chugged along running silent and deep below it all, making it work.

 

Believe me, your preaching to the choir. I tried all of that and more. Ultimately the answer was to invite two players out of that whole bunch and find some others from elsewhere and run a few games with this entirely new group. It worked, though without a well-established social group it's been hard to keep games going between everyone's busy lives.

 

But anyway, the point wasn't to expound upon my whole gaming situation; just to share some frustration over switching systems and being unable to use Hero to its fullest.

[Dragonfly]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Howdy,

 

I would agree to this point if it were not for Taking 10 and Hero Points.

 

Well, its a matter of degrees. You can't take 10 in all cases, unless you have the proper feats. Hero Points run out, and with them goes the relative dependability of your abilities. I think Hero Points are cooler when used to do nifty power stunts, so I hate using them to make up for those all too frequent low rolls. Also, I could never quite get used to the 2nd Edition practice of having characters begin play with 1 hero point and have more awarded over the course of the adventure. It's not that I didn't like that dynamic in concept - I just never got the hang of being mindful of this while GMing (or playing).

 

I would agree to this point if I had not reviewed Agents of Freedom and Warlocks and Warriors. I concede Mutants and Masterminds does not have the same flexibility and granularity as Hero. I prefer a highly cinematic game' date=' regardless of genre. I find that Mutants and Masterminds is more than capable of doing highly cinematic games, not just Superheroes.[/quote']

 

Agents of Freedom is an excellent supplement. I haven't been able to check out Warlocks and Warriors, but am interested in doing so. I suspect that Green Ronin will eventually compile all of these genre rules into a universal system. That might make sense for a third edition. Currently, however, there isn't enough support for using M&M as a multi-genre system - at least not for my tastes. It can be done, but HERO simply has more to offer right now in those respects. One of our GMs ran an urban fantasy setting using M&M, but we found it lacking. He then switched to True20 for a follow-up, high concept horror campaign as well as a Sci-Fi campaign. While most of us feel that True20 does an alright job - it feels lacking in many respects.

 

I am like you. I do not want to learn half a dozen different systems. I want one good ruleset that can handle any genre. Hero and Mutants and Masterminds do that for me. Thus far' date=' I have found it easier to find players (forget about finding someone to run) for Mutants and Masterminds than Hero.[/quote']

 

Well, I wouldn't mind learning 3 dozen different systems. I think that's fun! My problem is that I don't have time for that sort of thing anymore.

 

Still, I don't think we disagree on anything. We both seem to admire these two systems, but just have different preferences when it comes to picking a favorite.

 

Best,

 

Dragonfly

[CourtFool]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

I agree it is a matter of degree. You are absolutely correct you can not always take 10 unless you have the appropriate Feats. Yes, Hero Points are more fun to spend on something more than just a re-roll. I certainly feel your pain, having the worst luck with dice myself.

 

One more point I would like to make, except on attack rolls, a 1 does not mean automatic failure. This is something I misunderstood at first and can add to the feeling of failing 5% of the time.

 

You are also correct in pointing out that Hero simply has more support for multiple genres. I plan to cannibalize some of True20 when I do get around to playing a more mundane campaign of Mutants & Masterminds.

 

A lot has to do with my desire for more rules light and cinematic rules sets right now. If I wanted really gritty campaigns, for example, and/or more granularity, I would be more likely to lean towards G.U.R.P.S. than either Hero or M&M.

 

I find all three systems quite serviceable.

[Wolf]

Re: Confessions of Infidelity

 

Not to hijack this thread any further, but I have never really been able to "get" GURPS. I've tried several times (I've even said so in previous posts), but for some reason there is a core concept or two that I think I'm just bringing in from Hero. And it makes it so I just can't get GURPS.

 

I even got the computer character generator, that didn't help at all. I mean I've played it a few times at Origins, even got a signed copy of the Special Forces book. I use a ton of GURPS books and convert them to Hero after I've plundered their systems to heck and back... but I just can't seem to make the system right in my head.