two weapon skill

[Stone]

If two weapon skill in conjuction w/a rapid attack skill allows a character to make two attacks in one phase, can the character use one of these attacks to block or to add to his DCV?

[CorpCommander]

I think so...

 

I am not Steve Long or even very experienced running Hero yet but from what I read you get two attacks with no written or implied limitation on the types of attacks. Common Sense prevails of course. The example on pg. 53 of FREd shows a character using two different manuevers with a sort of daisho (twin Katanas) and shows varying OCV for each attack. The DCV is impacted by the worst DCV penalty (+0 in the example) and then 1/2 DCV is applied since this is a form of sweep.

 

Now then, given that - a block looks inviting. I think it is legal. Just make sure your offensive manuever isn't one that raises DCV - that would be a waste since block is +0 DCV.

[Talon]

There are optional rules to that effect in Fantasy Hero.

[Old Man]

Two Weapon FIghting along with Rapid Attack allows you to make a half move and then make a Sweep at two targets with no OCV penalty.

 

Two Weapon Fighting doesn't allow two attacks so much as it allows you to make a Sweep. Kind of different.

 

I haven't gotten to the juicy bits if FH yet...

[Demonsong]

Two Weapon FIghting along with Rapid Attack allows you to make a half move and then make a Sweep at two targets with no OCV penalty.

 

Rappid attack is implied in the cost of two weapon fighting.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by Demonsong

Rappid attack is implied in the cost of two weapon fighting.

 

No it is not. Rapid attack allows a sweep after a half move. Two weapon fighting allows you to negate the -2 CV penalty but without rapid attack this takes a full phase. Also as a minor correction to what Shadowpup said, you can half move and sweep without two weapon fighting if you have rapid attack, albiet at a -2 CV penalty.

 

Geoffe was correct earlier about the alternate rule provided in Fantasy Hero for two weapon fighting allowing a block and attack combination inside of the sweep complex.

 

Being a purist and a tactics nut, I find this alternate rule to be far too easily abused. I aslo think it can lead to chracters preforming multiple half attack actions when combined with UMA options such as those common with Grab or counterattack type maneuvers. For example Uanarmed two weapon fighting doing a garb, redirect, and block in a sweep.

 

I would caution most GM's to ere on the side of basics until they have a VERY FIRM grasp on the tactics of hero. As it is FRED is far more offensive than prior additions.

 

In addition to this, with low CV's to start, and lessend encumberace penalties, many chracters in heavy armor will be sweeping with or without this alternate rule. In fact Tactically it is VERY SOUND. The 9th is a common sweep phase when PC's have a 4 speed vs. 3 speed baddies.

 

I welcome responses, but I am positive that this advice is sound.

[Demonsong]

(as Demonsong staggers back as if shot, eyes wide in shock) What? I don’t have Fred with me but I could have sworn…… Ok, let’s assume you’re correct. Then I have PC’s paying 10 points for a +2 penalty skill level. That’s insane. Why would any one use two weapon fighting?

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Keneton

I would caution most GM's to ere on the side of basics until they have a VERY FIRM grasp on the tactics of hero. As it is FRED is far more offensive than prior additions.

 

I assume you mean "offensive" here as in "it leans toward and supports more aggressive actions and tactics" rather than "the rules suck."

 

I agree, hense why I pointed out common sense rules. We had a battle last night in which the party was overtaken by twice their number in foes. This lead to everyone either trying to sweep OR the non-combat types trying to dodge. The sweepers found to their joy that multiple attacks are fun. Personally I would only allow two types of manuevers in total for two handed combatants. Add one per extra limb. The rule that your DCV gets set to the worst DCV of all the manuevers is a great limiter.

 

It is worth setting up a mock fight and running through it a few times with some of your players before you do the real thing. This will allow you all the time to look up rules, familiarize yourself with tactics and figure out how to best deal with this situation.

[Demonsong]

Is this feasible them?

 

 

 

Two Handed Fighting V7.9

 

Rapid Attack Hand to Hand; 5pts

Ambidextrous; 9pts

Skill Penalty Levels +2; 6pts

 

-1 Only when fighting with two weapons.

 

Active Cost 21pts

 

Real Cost 10pts

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by Demonsong

Is this feasible them?

 

 

 

Two Handed Fighting V7.9

 

Rapid Attack Hand to Hand; 5pts

Ambidextrous; 9pts

Skill Penalty Levels +2; 6pts

 

-1 Only when fighting with two weapons.

 

Active Cost 21pts

 

Real Cost 10pts

 

You are close!

 

You do not need the ambidexterity to offset the panalties for the first two attacks with the sweep. What you have here is that the weapons could be in either hand equally and you could sweep another opponenet at less of a penalty. You could do all of this after a half move!

 

I am not sure what the -1 limitation is for as PSL's cannot have limitations on them. You may put limitations only on certain types of levels.

 

I am not sure that you can put a limitation of Rapid attack as this would be a -0 lim. You only use rapid attack HTH for sweeps anyways.

 

As for ambidexterity, you could just by this as PSL, in fact many buy PSL's instead of two weapon fighting to save points. This is what lead to the additional benefits listed in Fantasy Hero.

Good luck to you

[Guest cubist]

Originally posted by Demonsong

(as Demonsong staggers back as if shot, eyes wide in shock) What? I don’t have Fred with me but I could have sworn…… Ok, let’s assume you’re correct. Then I have PC’s paying 10 points for a +2 penalty skill level. That’s insane. Why would any one use two weapon fighting?

 

The reason that Two Weapon Fighting costs ten points is that it already contains a limited form of Ambidexterity in it to offset the off hand penalty, only while making sweep attacks...

[Old Man]

If you have Two Weapon Fighting you are not required to make a Sweep in order to ignore the penalty for using your off hand.

 

Just to clarify, Rapid Attack allows a Sweep after a half move. Two Weapon Fighting allows a Sweep with no OCV penalty for the first two targets. The combination allows for a half move and a Sweep at the first two targets with no OCV penalty. It is in the FAQ.

[bjbrown]

3-pt. Penalty Skill Levels may have Limitations on them.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by bjbrown

3-pt. Penalty Skill Levels may have Limitations on them.

 

Bj brown you are correct. You can place a limitation on a 3 point PSL according to FRED page 46.

 

The issue here is that the limitation involved was not a limitation. I was incorrect at saying that you could not put a limitation on ANY psl. What I should have said is that this limitation is not a limitation.

 

It is indeed strange that two -weapon fightings COST has created such a stir. In fact it is strange that sweep and rapid attack are treated differently in terms of levels.

 

For example you can use a level with EB when rapid attacking with and EB, but you could not use a level with martial arts when doing a sweep per the faq. This seems contradictory as was the subject of a great thread that I wish I could find!

 

Steve persoanlly addresseed to me that many of these issues would be worked out in The Ultimae Skill. I guess a long wait is in order!

 

Anyways.. Good catch.

[CorpCommander]

Great discussion

 

This discussion is great. I am not very experienced with the system but I used to play a lot a long time ago. I've been running a fantasy game for a good group of role players for about 6 weeks now. Everyone is slowly coming up to speed. I've been reading and participating in discussions here as much as possible. Anyway, this is a little lesson blurb I am sending to my crew. Let me know if I have made a mistake with anything. Thanks!

 

--------------------------

 

Here are some notes to help with the next combat. Hero allows for some great tactical surprises and these notes may help your party survive the Thrall filled dungeon without me having to fudge anything. Heavy hint on MAY.

 

The basic martial manuver is the Strike. This has no effect to OCV or DCV. Your attack roll is still <= 11 + your OCV minus their DCV.

 

The Manuver we were using a lot last time is the Sweep. A sweep allows for multiple HTH (hand to hand) attacks. There is an artificial limit of 3 attacks that I've imposed (highly suggested by the guy who wrote the system.) For each extra attack the OCV penalty is -2. Also, its a FULL MOVE action meaning you can't do anything other than 0-phase actions (turning on powers, defense,etc.) So you can't move and Sweep. Also your DCV is cut in half.

 

Lets take a look at Akram. He has a dagger and a CV of 7 (CV = OCV and DCV starting values.)

 

If Akram decides to make 3 HTH attacks he is at -4 OCV and 1/2 DCV. So his OCV = 3 and his DCV = 3.5 (rounding favors the character so this becomes 4). This would mean that against 3 Thralls with DCV of 4 he would need a 10 or less on 3D6 to get hits.

 

If your character has the Rapid Attack skill you can turn Sweep into a half-phase action.

 

If you have two weapons you can fight with both of them, but your off hand weapon has a -3 OCV penalty. If you have Ambidexterous as a talent then the penalty goes to -2 (down to 0 OCV penalty if you buy more levels.) Some characters, like Hellwig have Two-Weapon Fighting as a skill. You get to fully offset the -3 off hand penalty and the first -2 Sweep Penalty. Thus you can do 2 attacks at no OCV penalty. You could do 3 attacks at -2 OCV for all of them, or 4 attacks at -4 OCV. This makes Sgt. Damon Hellwig impressive in combat. He is still at 1/2 DCV (if his CV is 6 then 4 attacks put him at 2 OCV, 3 DCV.)

 

Here is where it gets interesting. You can do different manuevers with your attacks. One type can be used for each hand. That means that Hellwig could do a Strike with one hand and a block with the other! The worst DCV modifier applies. I will come up with a list of which manuevers can be combined - it will be restrictive but balancing.

[Markdoc]

Though I can see why the block option is offered, as a GM I don't allow it. We actually tried something like this in the past (a medieval japanese game, where Katana and Wakazashi were common weapons) and it resulted in fighters using sweep as their default attack, since you could very easily attack at no significant penalty AND block. even with my house rule that blocks are affected by how much you hit by, having the ability to block completely over-ruled the DCV penalty that results from sweeping/TWF.

 

What that means is that in most circumstances, where you are fighting multiple foes, this system encourages you to dump all of your levels in OCV and use two weapons: since it both boosts your chance to hit AND your chance to block with the second weapon.

 

And yeah, I know that you can work around these problems: use missile attacks, multiple attackers, or keep combat fluid to make the "full phase" effect more of a limitation, but nevertheless, it remained a pain in the neck. There's also the issue that if you can use the extra weapon to block (since it is "logical") can you hold that action and attack in another phase? Can you use it for missile deflection? It is, after all just blocking an arrow...

 

Basically my experience has been that this ruling is a generally bad idea - as is almost every single suggestion that bends the rules because "it's logical".

 

Players who want an extra block or extra attack, can buy a triggered power to simulate it: that works. You pay for what you get and the rules define pretty tightly what you can and cannot do with it.

 

I have to admit, I also enjoyed the look on my player's faces the first time I sprang a samurai on them who had a variety of sword maneuvers built as powers.

 

cheers, Mark

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Markdoc

...and it resulted in fighters using sweep as their default attack, since you could very easily attack at no significant penalty AND block...

 

If it makes sense, how is this a bad thing? In most games there aren't a lot of HTH martial arts experts like there would be in a japanese game. I guess I don't really understand how it was a problem - how it broke play and made it either unrealistic or not fun. Could you illustrate your point with some extended examples?

[Old Man]

Sweep used to be a maneuver in itself before, but no longer is.

 

Now, if you allowed it, it would be Sweep using Strike and Block, no OCV penalty, 1/2 DCV. Assuming of course the character has Two Weapon Fighting.

[Bait]

Interesting points but here's a few things to consider.

 

1.) The block maneuver uses Ocv and you incur -2 OCV with it as well.

 

2.) You must declare the number of actions your going take before you start the maneuver. ( The sweep part.)

 

3.) As this is an attack option its performed last in the phase. ( Page 234, first paragraph. FRED) -ie, no block then sweep, no sweep then move, ect.

 

5.) If you miss one ocv roll, all other attacks fail. (Includes your blocks.)

[Guest Keneton]

Very good Stuff.

 

I know that block has been allowed via optional rules into sweep, but still as a purist I avoid this option. I also understand Steve's thinking on two weapon fighting needing another benefit besides the offset of the cv penalties that you could easily buy for less in another manner (see the FAQ).

 

Still I stop short of allowing Block as a maneuver inside sweep. I do allow maneuvers with different elements into the sweep maneuver, but not one with the abort element.

 

I think at this point we move too far. I would likely allow escape (an exert maneuver) and a strike in a sweep, but this has yet to come up in actail game play as most of the time you have a half phase remaining.

 

Interestingly enough we asbuse sweep in another way in the old 4th edition days. It weant a little something like this.

 

Keneton purchased: Use art with Humanoids (1) for his martial arts. he would grab a brick opponent. He would then sweep the empty hexes around him hitting the adjacent hex (DCV=0) 6 times with his weapon with a sacrifice strike. Keneton had a 7- STR and martial arts. The poor victim would take 18d6 6 times.

 

Even the cleaned up 5th rules have loopholes to abuse. I think opening sweep up via two waepon fighting to non strike or attack elements is dangerous and possibly broken. I see logically why, but just because one can do something doesnt mean one should.

 

This is my humble opinion, and contrary to my other posts is not an opinion based on PURE game mechanics. I look forward to other opinions and further excellent discussion.

 

One more thing. I think that Shadowpup's anaysis of additional benefits of two wepon fighting not actaully requiring sweep was enlightening and something I never thought about!

[Bait]

Here's the point behind two-weapon fighting.

 

"However, not all campaigns use that Maneuver — it is specifically listed as optional — and for them, the more “traditional†TWF Skill might be appropriate even if characters normally cannot Sweep."

 

The only caveat is to make sure to enforce ocv penalties, attack restrictions and the all or nothing section.

 

At any rate the block option makes sense if you understand real-life usage of off-hand weapons.

 

Generally you use one of the weapons as a block and the other as an attack, switching between long/short in order to deal with opponents at different ranges.

 

Its not very easy to learn either.

[Markdoc]

>>>...and it resulted in fighters using sweep as their default attack, since you could very easily attack at no significant penalty AND block...

 

 

If it makes sense, how is this a bad thing?<<<

 

Because prior to this change, strike and sweep were two different maneuvers. Strike was, well, for striking people. Sweep allowed you to swing wildly at a bunch of targets, but came with significant disadvantages, the greatest of which was the fact that if you goofed, you were vulnerable. By allowing Block into the equation, Sweep became the attack of choice (sweep one target!) since it allowed you to block any counter attacks. In short it gave you a free action in exchange for DCV: which often against lower point opponents was much less useful than the high OCV block.

 

This, in turn promoted the use of the 2 point level in OCV, since now you could use it for both attack and defence. Yowza! Such a bargain! It led to players bumping up their OCV just as fast as they could, and made the more expensive levels essentially pointless.

 

In other words, breaking the carefully-balanced Hero system combat rules skewed the cost balance based on those rules.

 

It doesn't really matter that two weapon fighting might not be as common in other genres as in feudal japan. Truth is, even in feudal japan it was somewhere between extremely rare to non-existent. But if you allow this maneuver every fighter will want to buy it. This, in itself, is a pretty good indicator of rules-abuse.

 

cheers, Mark

[Bait]

Increasing your OCV with sweeps doesn't negate the fact that you still suffer -2 per action taken and if you "miss" any of the actions all the rest are negated.

 

This also effects the use of block as it relies on OCV and not DCV. It should be noted that each block action has its own -2 to OCV to contend with as well, and isn't countered by the TWF.

 

Consider a fighter with OCV 11 deciding to sweep for 3 actions.

 

1.) 3 actions result in a -4 to OCV, resulting in OCV 7

2.) If he starts blocking its a further reduction of -2 OCV each block.

3.) If he misses any of the sweep actions, he loses the rest of the actions. Still suffering the OCV penalties

4.) Any penalties carry over to the start of the next phase.

[Guest Keneton]

Bait

 

I think you are missing the point. Mechanically you have the right idea, but maybe its a long time experience thing that shouts watch out.

 

I have been a long time HERO GM. many players on this board have played in my games. I know the game.

 

Imagine a hevaily armored Fighter type chracter with a 15 dex and 4 levels with HTH combat. he carries a large shield and has only a -1 DCV adjustment for Armor. He does a sweep using two weapon fighting using a fast strike and a block.

 

The fast strike is +2 OCV, he puts 4 in offesnse and attacks with a 5+4+2=11 OCV. he has no penalties to OCV as the two wepaon negates the effect of the sweep. His DCV is halved from 5+2+2-1=10/2 = 5. he is stll at a base 5 and is attacking at an 11 OCV and blocking at an 11 OCV.

 

Who cares about penalties. Yeah teh guy is bad to range, but who cares. he is a stallion at hand to hand on TOP of the heavy armor. Elimante teh block and the guy is balanced.

 

5+2-1/2=4 DCV Now were talking.

 

Sweep will become the method of chice in almost all attacks if the two wepon fighting option with block is excercised.

 

In reality the argument about two weapon skill was best simulated with the old WF: Offhand and possibly +1 DCV when fighting with two weapons.

 

I contend that 10+ years of playtesting have confirmed my opinion, but your opinion can legitamately vary.

 

Regardless, I have enjoyed your comments and look forward to more lievly discussion.

[Nevenall]

I would have to agree with Keneton.

If you can block and attack on the same phase and not even have to split your CSLs, that is too much of an advantage in combat.

I've seen the same thing happen in other games too.

I ran a martial arts campaign using Rolemaster and there is this skill that hastes you so you can make two actions.

So, everyone took that skill because, with it, you could full parry and attack at the same time. Same thing as blocking and attacking at the same time. Fights never ended because no one could hit anyone else, and anyone who didn't take that skill just ran for their lives.