Seeing in the dark

[Sean Waters]

Seeing in the dark is accomplished, in Hero, by a +4 PER roll. That doesn't feel right to me, but maybe someone can persuade me otherwise.

 

You can certainly use increased perception to extract more information from what you CAN see but increased PER, at least to my way of thinking, does not change how your senses work.

 

This is not a cost issue, it is about how the mechanics actually work.

 

I think, rather than having a specific 'Nightvision' build, we would be better off with an 'Increased Sensitivity' modifier; an adder. It could be 5 points and would apply to all senses. If you wanted more detail you could have various levels:

 

3 points: Increased sensitivity (example - you can see as well on a moonlit night as you could during a cloudy day; your hearing is greater in range - like that of a child compared to an adult). This is within the human range of ability, if only just.

 

5 points: Improved sensitivity (you can see as well on a moonless and overcast night as you could on a cloudy day). This is within the range of some animal senses.

 

10 points: Incredible sensitivity (you can see by individual photons; you can smell single molecules in the air). This is within the range of the most sensitive machines ans some, exceptional, animal senses.

 

All levels of increased sensitivity would often be bought with Extra time to activate (simulating how it takes some time to 'acclimatise' your senses to low level conditions) and Limited power: deactivated by intense sensation (simulating how a bright light can ruin your night vision temporarily).

 

The GM might allow a -1/2 limitation for the increased sensitivity adder if it is not applied to a targeting sense.

 

Taking increased sensitivity does not allow you to perceive if there is nothing to perceive: to see in complete darkness you need to buy a separate sense.

 

Thoughts?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I confess the idea of Nightvision as just +4 PER Vision only to offset darkness always struck me as a little off, if only because you have to have some light for vision to work. So then if the darkness modifier is more than -4 (you are entombed underground for instance), do you just call it Darkness (per the 5e power) and be done with it? If that is the case, what does that suggest about a -6 PER modifier? Maybe I just never got a good grasp on what the PER penalties for various light levels should be; of course I have terrible night vision so maybe that is part of my problem.

 

On the other hand, the -4 modifier is conceptually simple and easy to deal with in game terms, so interesting though your idea is, I am not looking for any fixes myself.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I completely agree. Nightvision bought as limited Enhanced Vision has always been wonky.

 

If you buy Night Vision, you can see in the dark. But if you buy just plain +4 Vision, you can also see in the dark? (in addition to seeing better in the day)

 

Part of the problem depends on the genre considerations. How do you want the "see in the dark" power to work? As I see it, there are three possibilities:

 

1) Increased Sensitivity - This is (I guess) the way the current Night Vision is supposed to work. But no light is no light. Increased sensitivity won't help you in a closed, dark room. It works OK for "The moon and stars give me all the light I need." If there's no moon, or totally overcast, it really shouldn't work.

 

2) Substituted Vision - This is Infravision and Ultravision. Seeing into other parts of the light spectrum can work well for seeing things more-or-less normally. Each of these has its limitations, though. I'm not an expert in non-visible light, but AFAIK, infravision only lets you see differences in temperature/heat. If everything around you is the same temperature, then you can't see. And you also can't see thinks that are sufficiently cold. AFAIK, ultraviolet light is always available, even on a moonless, overcast night, so you can see pretty well, but in "black and white", as long as you're outdoors above ground, although thick trees and such can block some, most, or all of your light. And of course, if you're indoors or underground, there is no UV light to be had.

 

3) Fantasy/Rubber Science - Regardless of the laws of physics, you can see in the dark. No light is necessary, you can still see, for some reason. You can see with no moon, no stars, underground and no light source whatsoever. This is the "missing" ability in the HERO System (so far). Yes, it makes no sense scientifically, but so what? Not all HERO games are based on realistic science, nor do they need to be. It would be out of genre to talk about IR and UV light in a quasi-historical fantasy game.

 

So how much should the #3-type "I can simply see in the dark" power cost?

 

Since #1 "Night Vision" costs 5 points, and #2 UV and IR cost 5 points each, I'm thinking around 15 points is a good cost for "see regardless of light" sense. If that seems expensive, remember that it's effectively an extra Targeting sense, included as part of the Sight group. It gives you a bit more than all three of the existing visions mentioned combined, and a bit less as IR gives you some temperature information that "Fantasy Darkvision" doesn't give you. So 15 points seems about right to me.

[Nevenall]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

...I think, rather than having a specific 'Nightvision' build, we would be better off with an 'Increased Sensitivity' modifier; an adder. It could be 5 points and would apply to all senses. If you wanted more detail you could have various levels:

 

3 points: Increased sensitivity (example - you can see as well on a moonlit night as you could during a cloudy day; your hearing is greater in range - like that of a child compared to an adult). This is within the human range of ability, if only just.

 

5 points: Improved sensitivity (you can see as well on a moonless and overcast night as you could on a cloudy day). This is within the range of some animal senses.

 

10 points: Incredible sensitivity (you can see by individual photons; you can smell single molecules in the air). This is within the range of the most sensitive machines ans some, exceptional, animal senses.

 

All levels of increased sensitivity would often be bought with Extra time to activate (simulating how it takes some time to 'acclimatise' your senses to low level conditions) and Limited power: deactivated by intense sensation (simulating how a bright light can ruin your night vision temporarily).

 

The GM might allow a -1/2 limitation for the increased sensitivity adder if it is not applied to a targeting sense.

 

Taking increased sensitivity does not allow you to perceive if there is nothing to perceive: to see in complete darkness you need to buy a separate sense.

 

Thoughts?

 

How is this different from Discriminatory and Analyze? Isn't this really just a bonus to a PER roll?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I completely agree. Nightvision bought as limited Enhanced Vision has always been wonky.

 

If you buy Night Vision, you can see in the dark. But if you buy just plain +4 Vision, you can also see in the dark? (in addition to seeing better in the day)

 

Part of the problem depends on the genre considerations. How do you want the "see in the dark" power to work? As I see it, there are three possibilities:

 

1) Increased Sensitivity - This is (I guess) the way the current Night Vision is supposed to work. But no light is no light. Increased sensitivity won't help you in a closed, dark room. It works OK for "The moon and stars give me all the light I need." If there's no moon, or totally overcast, it really shouldn't work.

 

2) Substituted Vision - This is Infravision and Ultravision. Seeing into other parts of the light spectrum can work well for seeing things more-or-less normally. Each of these has its limitations, though. I'm not an expert in non-visible light, but AFAIK, infravision only lets you see differences in temperature/heat. If everything around you is the same temperature, then you can't see. And you also can't see thinks that are sufficiently cold. AFAIK, ultraviolet light is always available, even on a moonless, overcast night, so you can see pretty well, but in "black and white", as long as you're outdoors above ground, although thick trees and such can block some, most, or all of your light. And of course, if you're indoors or underground, there is no UV light to be had.

 

3) Fantasy/Rubber Science - Regardless of the laws of physics, you can see in the dark. No light is necessary, you can still see, for some reason. You can see with no moon, no stars, underground and no light source whatsoever. This is the "missing" ability in the HERO System (so far). Yes, it makes no sense scientifically, but so what? Not all HERO games are based on realistic science, nor do they need to be. It would be out of genre to talk about IR and UV light in a quasi-historical fantasy game.

 

So how much should the #3-type "I can simply see in the dark" power cost?

 

Since #1 "Night Vision" costs 5 points, and #2 UV and IR cost 5 points each, I'm thinking around 15 points is a good cost for "see regardless of light" sense. If that seems expensive, remember that it's effectively an extra Targeting sense, included as part of the Sight group. It gives you a bit more than all three of the existing visions mentioned combined, and a bit less as IR gives you some temperature information that "Fantasy Darkvision" doesn't give you. So 15 points seems about right to me.

 

I'd argue that, for a 'fantasy/rubber science' 'see in the dark' power, you just buy another sense, built just like vision, but that works on dark rather than light: that is either 25 points if you believe that sight is 25 points, or 27-32 if you build it from scratch.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

 

3) Fantasy/Rubber Science - Regardless of the laws of physics, you can see in the dark. No light is necessary, you can still see, for some reason. You can see with no moon, no stars, underground and no light source whatsoever. This is the "missing" ability in the HERO System (so far). Yes, it makes no sense scientifically, but so what? Not all HERO games are based on realistic science, nor do they need to be. It would be out of genre to talk about IR and UV light in a quasi-historical fantasy game.

 

So how much should the #3-type "I can simply see in the dark" power cost?

 

Since #1 "Night Vision" costs 5 points, and #2 UV and IR cost 5 points each, I'm thinking around 15 points is a good cost for "see regardless of light" sense. If that seems expensive, remember that it's effectively an extra Targeting sense, included as part of the Sight group. It gives you a bit more than all three of the existing visions mentioned combined, and a bit less as IR gives you some temperature information that "Fantasy Darkvision" doesn't give you. So 15 points seems about right to me.

 

I have had more than one character that could "see" in the dark as though the darkness were light. Basically that is Spatial Awareness for 25pts (5e rules). You might argue the cost lower since anything affecting vision will wipe out both normal vision and your Darksense, while Passive Sonar lets you hedge your bets on a different sense. But then you can't read those top secret files in the dark with sonar, so maybe not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

How is this different from Discriminatory and Analyze? Isn't this really just a bonus to a PER roll?

 

Not really: analyse on vision would allow you to tell the exact wavelength of the light you are seeing, for example, but wouldn't help you see in the dark (or at very low light intensities) at all.

[Nevenall]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

Not really: analyse on vision would allow you to tell the exact wavelength of the light you are seeing' date=' for example, but wouldn't help you see in the dark (or at very low light intensities) at all.[/quote']

 

Well...Analysis is about the target not the medium. Scientifically, sight might be the detection of light, but gamewise it detects objects. Analysis ought to give you information about the object you're looking at not about the light reflecting off that object. Otherwise I'd never pay more then zero points for it.

 

How would Increased Sensitivity work for other senses like, say, hearing?

[Beast]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I would go with night vision being just that

pretty much it is a low light level addition to normal vision

you want a dark room use IR

all the stuff in the same temp go active and add transmit(you can now light up the area but are only visible to others with IR vision

[prestidigitator]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I would go with night vision being just that

pretty much it is a low light level addition to normal vision

you want a dark room use IR

all the stuff in the same temp go active and add transmit(you can now light up the area but are only visible to others with IR vision

 

That's always what I've done. Just assume MOST ordinary darkness is about in the range that the +4 is going to counteract the penalties, but in situations where there is TOTAL darkness (whether natural or using the Darkness Power) you simply need another type of Sense (sometimes even another Sense Group, depending on the circumstances).

[Rapier]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

That's always what I've done. Just assume MOST ordinary darkness is about in the range that the +4 is going to counteract the penalties' date=' but in situations where there is TOTAL darkness (whether natural or using the Darkness Power) you simply need another type of Sense (sometimes even another Sense Group, depending on the circumstances).[/quote']

 

IIRC, there is even a sidebar (or at least there was) that even purchasing Night Vision or +4 PSLs would not give you vision in total darkness.

 

It may have even been a DH article, but somewhere Steve went into some decent detail about Enhanced Senses and low-light/nightvision/infravision in particular.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

Well...Analysis is about the target not the medium. Scientifically' date=' sight might be the detection of light, but gamewise it detects objects. Analysis ought to give you information about the object you're looking at not about the light reflecting off that object. Otherwise I'd never pay more then zero points for it.[/quote']

 

I've never been happy with 'detect physical objects' as the sense definition: can't I see lightning and rainbows? That aside, detecting stuff with light can certainly give you a great deal of information about the object you are looking at. Think astronomy: we can tell what stars are made of, whether they are likely to have planets and so on.

 

If I took Analysis on Vision, I might want to be able to tell what an object is made of by just looking (or at least what the surface of the object is made of). It wouldn't let me see microscopic indentations on the surface (I'd need 'Microscopic' for that), and it wouldn't let me see the object if it was too dark...I'd need another sense (if there was no light) or some way of compensating for low light.

 

Now the thing that always weirded me out, to be honest, is the idea that if I'm REALLY smart, I can see in the dark: 30 INT gives you +4 PER, compared to a normal human. Can Reed Richards see in the dark? That is why simply changing the PER roll does not do it for me.

 

I see the sense as defining the limits of what you can perceive, and the PER roll as defining how much you perceive within those limits. Therefore you can make a PER roll in a very dimly lit attic, but you're never going to see the colour of that wallpaper because, with light that low, only your black and white receptors are working. If you have a really good PER roll, you notice details that are actually obvious once pointed out, but that people don't generally notice.

 

In fact I'd get rid of the term 'Perception Roll' and replace it with the everyman skill 'Observation'. Sherlock Holmes eyesight was probably no better than Watson's, and they would both be perfectly capable of perceiving that the man they are talking to has stained fingers, a small tattoo on his neck and stands favouring his right leg, but only Sherlock observes that these are significant and deduces their import.

 

I also believe that normal vision has the full version of Discriminatory.

 

How would Increased Sensitivity work for other senses like' date=' say, hearing?[/quote']

 

You could hear very quiet noises. If you bought 'microscopic' you'd be able to perceive very short duration (small) noises. I do appreciate that this may all seem a bit pointless, or too exacting, and for most senses it is, but for vision it makes sense to me: we have a 'special build' for seeing int eh dark: it seems easier to me to replace that with an adder.

[Nevenall]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I can totally agree there's a conceptual different between detecting and understanding, but I don't think you need new mechanics to make that a part of your game.

 

Just remove INT's contribution to PER rolls, use PER rolls and other sense modiferes for detecting, and Deduction for understanding what you are observing. Or even just tell the players what information they detect and let them puzzle out what it means for themselves.

[director13]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

In fact I'd get rid of the term 'Perception Roll' and replace it with the everyman skill 'Observation'. Sherlock Holmes eyesight was probably no better than Watson's, and they would both be perfectly capable of perceiving that the man they are talking to has stained fingers, a small tattoo on his neck and stands favouring his right leg, but only Sherlock observes that these are significant and deduces their import.

 

FWIW, I still agree with Sean about this.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I'd argue that' date=' for a 'fantasy/rubber science' 'see in the dark' power, you just buy another sense, built just like vision, but that works on dark rather than light: that is either 25 points if you believe that sight is 25 points, or 27-32 if you build it from scratch.[/quote']

 

I have had more than one character that could "see" in the dark as though the darkness were light. Basically that is Spatial Awareness for 25pts (5e rules). You might argue the cost lower since anything affecting vision will wipe out both normal vision and your Darksense' date=' while Passive Sonar lets you hedge your bets on a different sense. But then you can't read those top secret files in the dark with sonar, so maybe not.[/quote']

But it's not a seaprate sense. It's just an enhancement to sight. It's still blocked by anything that blocks sight (opaque objects). It's fooled by Images to Sight. It's stopped by Flash to Sight. It's blocked by Darkness to Sight. And it doesn't give you any additional information that ordinary sight doesn't give you. Radar, Targeting Hearing, and other types of Spacial Awareness give potentially useful information, even when you can see normally. Darkvision gives no benefit at all under normal light.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

But it's not a seaprate sense. It's just an enhancement to sight. It's still blocked by anything that blocks sight (opaque objects). It's fooled by Images to Sight. It's stopped by Flash to Sight. It's blocked by Darkness to Sight. And it doesn't give you any additional information that ordinary sight doesn't give you. Radar' date=' Targeting Hearing, and other types of Spacial Awareness give potentially useful information, even when you can see normally. Darkvision gives no benefit at all under normal light.[/quote']

 

Well it isn't a separate Sense Group but it is a separate Sense from Normal Vision for purposes of Flash and such. (Okay it might be a different Sense Group if it is some mystical thing, but that isn't what we are discussing here, although that is what has appeared in my games in the past). But you still might argue that it shouldn't cost 25 points. Fair enough. Maybe a 10 point adder to Normal Vision could allow it to work in total darkness (that is equivalent to +5 Vision PER or purchasing both IR & UV Vision) so you could have Darksense without having to buy an entirely new Sense. That seems reasonable to me, but would be up to the GM really.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

But it's not a seaprate sense. It's just an enhancement to sight. It's still blocked by anything that blocks sight (opaque objects). It's fooled by Images to Sight. It's stopped by Flash to Sight. It's blocked by Darkness to Sight. And it doesn't give you any additional information that ordinary sight doesn't give you. Radar' date=' Targeting Hearing, and other types of Spacial Awareness give potentially useful information, even when you can see normally. Darkvision gives no benefit at all under normal light.[/quote']

 

You can build your new 'darkvision' using the simulated senses rule (vision) which makes it MUCH cheaper - basically just the cost of a new basic detect. If darkvision is as good as lightvision in what it shows, it is worth 10 points, if it is not quite so detailed (all BnW, bit grainy, maybe limited range) it is probably a 5 point detect. If it shows just very basic outlines, 3 points.

 

SO, I've talked myself out of my point: you do not need an adder, just buy an additional detect with simulated sense...of course you also don;t need the current darkvision build either, in that case...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

You know, I might be okay with it if it simply weren't written up as "+4". IIRC back in 4E it was simply a number of points to be able to see in low-to-no light. It seems a decent number of points to account for a simple ordinary lack of light (as opposed to actual Darkness).

 

(EDIT: IOW, I agree with Sean: Detect: Things that would be visible were a bright light source present, Sight Group. )

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

Well it isn't a separate Sense Group but it is a separate Sense from Normal Vision for purposes of Flash and such.

No, it isn't. It's just an enhancement to Normal Vision. If normal vision is Flashed or in Darkness (the power), the darkvision is effected, too.

 

You can build your new 'darkvision' using the simulated senses rule (vision) which makes it MUCH cheaper - basically just the cost of a new basic detect. If darkvision is as good as lightvision in what it shows, it is worth 10 points, if it is not quite so detailed (all BnW, bit grainy, maybe limited range) it is probably a 5 point detect. If it shows just very basic outlines, 3 points.

 

SO, I've talked myself out of my point: you do not need an adder, just buy an additional detect with simulated sense...of course you also don;t need the current darkvision build either, in that case...

Yeah, that's probably the best way to go.

[director13]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

No' date=' it isn't. It's just an enhancement to Normal Vision.[/quote']

 

Not any more, it isn't.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

Not any more' date=' it isn't.[/quote']

What are you talking about? I'm talking about an enhancement to normal vision - not a separate sense. It gets Flashed/Darknessed/etc. along with normal vision. It has all the same limitations and restrictions as normal sight, except the requirement of light. That's what I want to be able to build.

[director13]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

What are you talking about?

 

Apologies. I was talking about Nightvision being a part of the Sight Sense Group and not a subset of Normal Sight, which seemed to be what you were correcting someone about, not how you would houserule a new sense build. I don't have an opinion about the latter.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

Ah. Yes, it seems you and I, and Occam's Spoon were talking past each other. I wasn't trying to "correct" anyone. I was requesting, along with Sean, how to best build a particular ability which isn't quite covered by IR, UV, or the current Nightvision, and doesn't quite fit the concept of a separate sense built with Spacial Awareness, etc.

[torchwolf]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

None of the Sight senses would work in enclosed spaces where no light source exists, since they are fundamentally passive. As are all normal human senses.

 

If you have an active Sight sense, it should work perfectly well under those circumstances. As noted under Enhanced Senses, active or passive can be defined as such at no extra cost.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Seeing in the dark

 

I'm not so sure about that Active/Passive thing. I would find it a bit strange that for no cost increase, the Sight ability would suddenly become much less likely to be impared by a simple SFX switch.

 

I don't have my 5ER with me, so I can't re-read up on the nuances of Senses.