Anyone know about Systema?

[novi]

I've got a new player incoming, and they want their character to be a master of systema, which I know very little about other than it being used in Soviet Russia. He knows only marginally more than me, but likes how it fits in with the character, a Russian veteran. Also, as he new to HERO, he's perhaps not the best person to talk to about building the style.

 

A quick search didn't reveal anything terribly useful, so I'm asking here.

 

Does anyone have any knowledge of systema, as related to building the martial arts style in HERO?

 

 

 

 

Also, he's already pre-ordered the book, so let's see if I can give him a good experience and keep him.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

Wiki is your friend...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

Not the first time this sort of thing has come up:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67979

 

I've trained in various styles of RMA. I also worked out a few times with one of Vladimir Vasiliev's former students. I've seen a fair number of Systema videos, at said former students instance, including one of the more controversial ones.

 

That said, what exactly would you like to know? Just need a list of Maneuvers or are you looking for something more fantastic?

 

I warn you now, it will be difficult for me to keep my opinion on the whole thing entirely neutral...

[bubba smith]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

if bloodstone cant help i have an idea use generic martial arts and have the character call it systema

[novi]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

Yeah, Wikipedia was the first stop, but didn't help me much.

 

And plan B has always been to just slap something together and call it Systema. I just like trying for plan A and basing it off whatever the real style is.

 

I suppose I'm mostly looking for a list of recommended maneuvers, skills, etc., that you might see in the Ultimate Martial Artist. And whether or not it's the sort of thing that could qualify for the Style distinctive feature.

 

Actually, I guess what I really want is to know if there's anything to go on beyond just writing him up as a generic martial artist. I suspect that he's just seen videos and heard the name, so he doesn't know any better, but I like to do my research when possible. In particular, he wants to have a "soft" style, and he wants some Defensive Maneuvers, and have Russian flavor, and I want to figure out what to do with that.

 

Feel free to let us know Bloodstone, as long as it won't get you banned. Often, honest opinions are more useful than false neutrality. I'm personally not impressed and feel there's more marketing department than martial arts in the videos I've bothered to watch (not a large number, but a pattern was developing). But I'd love to have an opinion backed with real knowledge.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

I suppose I'm mostly looking for a list of recommended maneuvers' date=' skills, etc., that you might see in the Ultimate Martial Artist.[/quote']

 

Game mechanics wise, you could get away with smashing together Commando Training and Aikido and the player would likely never know the difference.

 

Lots of circular throws. Hand techniques vary considerably: many whipping and flicking strikes, but also some linear punches. Kicks are mostly low line, rarely above the groin. Blocks lead directly into strikes, using the opponents own momentum to either add power to the strike or throw him off balance. Fair number of foot sweeps and trips. Vital points strikes are more practical than some of the more esoteric Asian styles, though they do have some really goofy techniques in this vein. You'll see a lot of counters to holds and throws too.

 

Lots of multiple man encounters are drilled, so you have an excuse for Defense Maneuver. They really love to arrange throws and knockback so as to pile bodies on top of each other.

 

Ground fighting emphasis was getting back to the feet while evading attacks, often using using kicks and takedowns in the process. Lots of roiling around doing somersaults, frequently as a setup for leglocks. Counters to grappling/wrestling holds mostly consisted of various gouges and pressure point strikes.

 

Weapons wise, they teach a ton of disarms against all types of weapons (though mostly clubs, knives, pistols and rifles), as well as short staff/bayonet, knife and improvised weapons like the e-tool. Some people also teach flexible weapons and throwing weapons (knives, e-tool, and improvised weapons like nails and razor blades). I've personally trained with the shashka, including dual wielding the heavy damn things (hell of a workout for the arms and shoulders).

 

Breakfall is a must have skill. They do some body toughening/breathing exercise, especially in regards to taking hits in the abdomen.

 

For non combat skills, lots of emphases is put on military skills, like Survival and various WF's. They have courses that you don't see in a typical martial arts school, like how to fight in water or how to stop a carjacking, spo that can make for some niche abilities (LS: Extended Breathing for example otr odd Environmental Movement)

 

And whether or not it's the sort of thing that could qualify for the Style distinctive feature.

 

Very much so.

 

RMA has a very distinctive style of moving, grappling and striking. It looks outright goofy in many cases, but it's very distinct.

 

That said, while I could almost certainly tell if someone had RMA training, I could probably not tell you which one of the "soft" styles it was. They are very hard for me to tell apart.

 

Feel free to let us know Bloodstone, as long as it won't get you banned. Often, honest opinions are more useful than false neutrality. I'm personally not impressed and feel there's more marketing department than martial arts in the videos I've bothered to watch (not a large number, but a pattern was developing). But I'd love to have an opinion backed with real knowledge.

 

There's a lot of techniques that would only work if you had superhuman reflexes. Stuff like rolling with a punch and then catching with your chin as it retracts(one hell of a visual for Grappling Block).

 

Many techniques only work right when performed on a student who has been conditioned to make the instructor look good.

 

The "mental powers" attributed to various practitioners have varied from "oh, this is just a really good feint" to "I have puppet like control of my subject. Watch as I bend him to my will without even touching him!". Heck, at one point I heard a claim that one of the top instructors had the psychic ability to "feel color". I have no idea is this instructor actually made this claim himself mind you, but the fact his students seemed to believe it was rather disconcerting.

 

There some very good practical technique in there, it's just a matter of sifting through the stuff that would get you killed to get to it.

 

Of course, the same can be said of most martial arts. Systema just tends to set off peoples BS detectors faster. It might be because so much of it is allegedly based on top secret soviet research, as opposed to ancient Chinese medicine... tends to attract a different crowd...

 

If you need more, let me know. I can ramble for hours about this sort of thing

[Bloodstone]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

I should point out, Systema in North America tends to be associated with one particular martial arts lineage, but there are a variety of styles that use the term... or share a very similar body of techniques, but use a different name entirely.

 

My opinion on them and their practicality varies considerably based on said lineage...

[Dino]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

It is worth noting than Kadochnikov's Systema makes no claims to mystical powers and in fact prides itself on scientific teaching methods and techniques. Based on videos and what little english language articles I could find, it seems to rely heavily on basic leverage principles to redirect an attack, then take the attacker down and kick him when he's on the ground. (A time honored martial arts tradition!) The most impressive maneuvers are the rooting and shoving techniques which seem to have a lot in common with Tai Chi Chuan. Here's a package I wrote up for my games:

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

 

Kadochnikov's Systema

 

5 1) Grappling Block: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Grab One Limb, Block

 

4 2) Counterstrike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, 4d6 Strike, Must Follow Block

 

3 3) Grappling Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 4d6 Strike; Target Falls; Must Follow Grab

 

5 4) Disarming Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab Weapon, 15 STR to take weapon away; Target Falls

 

4 5) Root: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 25 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort

 

4 6) Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 25 STR to Shove

 

1 7) Weapon Element: Blades

 

1 8) Weapon Element: Clubs

 

1 9) Weapon Element: Staffs

 

1 10) Weapon Element: Clubs (Chair)

 

1 11) Weapon Element: Chain & Rope Weapons (Belt)

 

1 12) Weapon Element: Assault Rifles/LMGs (as melee weapon)

 

Martial Arts Cost: 31

 

 

 

Cost Skill

 

Kadochnikov's Systema

 

3 1) Breakfall 11-

 

3 2) Climbing 11-

 

2 3) KS: Kadochnikov's Systema 11-

 

4 4) WF: Common Melee Weapons, Small Arms

 

Skills Cost: 12

[novi]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

Thanks, guys. That about covers it. I've now got enough to feel good throwing together something for the player. And it feels good getting it from someone with the bruises to prove it, not just the top 20 hits on the internet.

 

And good to know that my BS detector was properly tuned.

 

As to "soft" vs "hard" styles, its one of the many broad classifications for martial arts and maneuvers. Soft is over on the side with Aikido, using your opponents energy against him, while hard is over by Tae Kwan Do and punching through boards. I wasn't sure whether Systema was a blend or stayed over on the soft side, but now I know it's soft.

[Wolf]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

*snip*

Heck, at one point I heard a claim that one of the top instructors had the psychic ability to "feel color". I have no idea is this instructor actually made this claim himself mind you, but the fact his students seemed to believe it was rather disconcerting.

*snip*

 

I'm here commenting less on the martial arts here (I have only practiced to a black belt in Tae Quan Do, I hated it, been out of it for almost 20 years. Still do hate it, too sporty, too dancy, not "hard" enough for me. Oddly enough I'm going to be starting up an Akido class soon).

 

What I am commenting on is feeling colors claim, I believe it's called Synesthesia, and is a common Psychological disorder, My bet is that this is quite related to the story you heard.

I know Wiki is a dangerous dance to get your information from, but here is the page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

 

I read about it in my Psych 240 class.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

It is worth noting than Kadochnikov's Systema makes no claims to mystical powers and in fact prides itself on scientific teaching methods and techniques.

 

One of the styles of RMA I studied was founded by a student Aleksey Kadochnikov.

 

What I am commenting on is feeling colors claim' date=' I believe it's called Synesthesia, and is a common Psychological disorder, My bet is that this is quite related to the story you heard.[/quote']

 

Actually, I'm aware of that disorder, in large part because of my readings about Daniel Tammet.

 

However, I'm talking about someone that could allegedly tell what color a piece of paper was by running his fingers over it while blindfolded.

 

Like I said, I never heard the man claim he could do it. I only got it second hand from his students.

[Wolf]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

*snip*

Actually, I'm aware of that disorder, in large part because of my readings about Daniel Tammet.

 

However, I'm talking about someone that could allegedly tell what color a piece of paper was by running his fingers over it while blindfolded.

 

Like I said, I never heard the man claim he could do it. I only got it second hand from his students.

 

Right on, I don't think the disorder would qualify for that level of awareness anyway, I believe it's a "crossing" of neural fiber, meaning the individual would still have to see it, to be able to access the "feeling" associated with the color. I could be wrong, I've not read too much on this disorder, however there still remains some possibility that the touch sense could be crossed somewhere with sight, or a sensitivity to a certain band of light expressed on a physical level (touch), but that would be rare indeed, and on par with psionics of the sort that are quasi-science.... though I know you are not saying this, I'm just thinking out loud at this point.

 

As far as Daniel Tammet, I've never heard of him before now, I think I'll look into him at any rate, seems like an amazing person.

[LordGhee]

Re: Anyone know about Systema?

 

OHHHO

 

detect martial maneuver as a color!

 

this could be a cool power the ability to detect what the attacker is going to do like punch or martial block, he is going blue so he is upper body attacking ect.

 

instead of ki energy detection it is based on the science of the body ect . . .

 

Lord Ghee