Barrier Issue

[Sean Waters]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

I'm not sure what it being a Defense Power has to do with anything. There's nothing unique about Defense Powers that let's them work differently from other Powers.

 

Activating any Power is a 0-Phase action unless the Power states otherwise; Barrier states otherwise.

 

Barrier is also one only 2 Defense Powers that is Instant by default (Deflection being the other). And both Instant Defense Powers state they require Attack Actions to use.

 

Attack roll to place it accurately at range. It does not take an attack action to use Barrier, or an attack roll if you are not using it at range, or if it does, I can not see that stated anywhere. Barrier does not state 'otherwise' in regard to activation times, or, again, if it does, I can not see it and would be obliged for a reference.

 

The other defence power is presumably Deflection, but that works on a different basis: you need to use 'Block', which IS an attack action, so there is no real comparison.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

According to Mr. Long, any initial use of Barrier requires an attack action:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75763

[Sean Waters]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Steve has ruled. Might be worth noting for 6ER that it might not be a bad idea to put 'Activation time' in the Power Stat Block. Fer clarity.

 

Also note that Barriers are a minimum of 1/2m thick: you can not just keep setting up new ones if space is limited AND you could only set up new ones closer to you unless you bought the Barrier power 'indirect': you can not set up a barrier THROUGH a barrier, I assume, as it requires targeting and acts like a real wall. It is unlcear whether you can move a barrier through a barrier: there's a number of things about 'mobile and non-anchored' that's not clear.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

According to Mr. Long, any initial use of Barrier requires an attack action:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75763

 

This includes "patching" a barrier, which I interpret to mean shoring up a damaged barrier. Otherwise, it would be noted as an exception.

 

Steve has ruled. Might be worth noting for 6ER that it might not be a bad idea to put 'Activation time' in the Power Stat Block. Fer clarity.

 

Also note that Barriers are a minimum of 1/2m thick: you can not just keep setting up new ones if space is limited AND you could only set up new ones closer to you unless you bought the Barrier power 'indirect': you can not set up a barrier THROUGH a barrier, I assume, as it requires targeting and acts like a real wall. It is unlcear whether you can move a barrier through a barrier: there's a number of things about 'mobile and non-anchored' that's not clear.

 

You couldn't move a barrier through any other physical object, so I fail to see why it would be unclear it can't move through another barrier, which is the same as any other physical object.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

............

 

You couldn't move a barrier through any other physical object, so I fail to see why it would be unclear it can't move through another barrier, which is the same as any other physical object.

 

You may be right, but it doesn't say that. If I make a barrier that is mobile out in the street, whilst sitting in my living room, then someone closes the window, does that prevent me moving it, even though I can still see it?

 

If your 'contact' with your barrier is broken in such a way, how can you re-estabilish it? What is the mechanism?

 

Details, details. I know I'm tiresome, but this is the sort of stuff I'd rather WAS clear so that I do not have to interupt a game to adjudicate on it. It's hardly remote, either: I can see this coming up quite a bit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

You may be right' date=' but it doesn't say that. If I make a barrier that is mobile out in the street, whilst sitting in my living room, then someone closes the window, does that prevent me moving it, even though I can still see it?[/quote']

 

Assuming the power is not Indirect, I'd say you lose the ability to direct it, just like you can't create it through a solid object.

 

If your 'contact' with your barrier is broken in such a way' date=' how can you re-estabilish it? What is the mechanism?[/quote']

 

Again, I'd approach this with the perspective that moving the barrier is part of the power. Once you can re-establish "direct", you can control the barrier.

 

The books could be ten times as long and still be unable to cover every possibility.

[phookz]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Assuming the power is not Indirect, I'd say you lose the ability to direct it, just like you can't create it through a solid object.

 

 

 

Again, I'd approach this with the perspective that moving the barrier is part of the power. Once you can re-establish "direct", you can control the barrier.

 

The books could be ten times as long and still be unable to cover every possibility.

 

Agreed; the books are long enough already. I sometimes miss the simplicity of 4e. GMs are going to have to make calls on things. I'd hate to see this turn into Starfleet Battles.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Agreed; the books are long enough already. I sometimes miss the simplicity of 4e. GMs are going to have to make calls on things. I'd hate to see this turn into Starfleet Battles.

 

Agreed.

 

I mean, we could get really, really silly and start thinking about what kind of physical obstruction is really enough to interrupt non-damaging powers (ones that can't simply blast through). For example, what about a curtain of beads? What about a sheet of tissue paper? Rice paper? A sheet of transparent plastic? Fog? Water?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Assuming the power is not Indirect, I'd say you lose the ability to direct it, just like you can't create it through a solid object.

 

 

 

Again, I'd approach this with the perspective that moving the barrier is part of the power. Once you can re-establish "direct", you can control the barrier.

 

The books could be ten times as long and still be unable to cover every possibility.

 

 

Fairy nuff, but I very much disagree with the last bit: I promise you the 'Barrier' definition could be a lot shorter and cover a lot more eventualities. Tha could apply elsewhere too. Consistent application of rules and principles means you can avoid repetition and you don't need to cover every specific.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Fairy nuff' date=' but I very much disagree with the last bit: I promise you the 'Barrier' definition could be a lot shorter and cover a lot more eventualities. Tha could apply elsewhere too. Consistent application of rules and principles means you can avoid repetition and you don't need to cover every specific.[/quote']

 

I can agree with that. The Barrier description is certainly a bit long winded and confusing. It could probably benefit with a bit of simplification.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

According to Mr. Long, any initial use of Barrier requires an attack action:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75763

This makes sense to me. Being able to heal the Barrier is very powerful, being able to do it every phase whilst attacking makes it unfun.

 

Tangent Question: Before the player even asks, does Counteracts Indirect keep a character from attacking enemies through his own barrier with Indirect attacks? If not, shouldn't it?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

From the Barrier power, p 6e1 173, Counteracts Indirectblocks Indirect attacks made by characters on one side of the Barrier against characters

on the other side. I can read this as "it only works from one side", but that makes less sense to me than "it prevents indirect attacks from passing through the barrier". Off to the Rules Q's.

 

EDIT: "it prevents indirect attacks from passing through the barrier". IOW, both ways are affected. Steve's extra-quick this morning!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

You could make it transparent in one direction and avoid the need for 'indirect' at all, or make your attacks doubly indirect or, possibly, buy personal immunity to allow your indirect attacks through.

 

In other words it can be done, but it is likely to cost more. Which is fine.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

From the Barrier power, p 6e1 173, Counteracts Indirectblocks Indirect attacks made by characters on one side of the Barrier against characters

on the other side. I can read this as "it only works from one side", but that makes less sense to me than "it prevents indirect attacks from passing through the barrier". Off to the Rules Q's.

 

EDIT: "it prevents indirect attacks from passing through the barrier". IOW, both ways are affected. Steve's extra-quick this morning!

Thanks again.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Question: what does this do?

 

Barrier, 17 BODY (up to 4m long, 2m tall, and 1/2m thick), Non-Anchored, Mobile (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) (59 Active Points)

 

Does the constant mean that it auto-repairs so long as you maintain it?

[dmjalund]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Question: what does this do?

 

Barrier, 17 BODY (up to 4m long, 2m tall, and 1/2m thick), Non-Anchored, Mobile (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) (59 Active Points)

 

Does the constant mean that it auto-repairs so long as you maintain it?

if this is allowed, it would only repair itself at the beginning of your next phase , allowing people who have held their actions a clear shot before it gets healed up

[Doc Samson]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Question: what does this do?

 

Barrier, 17 BODY (up to 4m long, 2m tall, and 1/2m thick), Non-Anchored, Mobile (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) (59 Active Points)

 

Does the constant mean that it auto-repairs so long as you maintain it?

This causes me to tear up character sheets...especially because I'm jealous I didn't think of it.

 

It would appear to provide auto-healing and actually this would be fun for a major villain where the group has to cordinate their attacks on the Barrier each phase until it goes down so heroes with phases before the Barrier goes back up can take shots.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Assuming the power is not Indirect, I'd say you lose the ability to direct it, just like you can't create it through a solid object.

 

Again, I'd approach this with the perspective that moving the barrier is part of the power. Once you can re-establish "direct", you can control the barrier.

Am I correct in concluding from some of the things said in this discussion*, that a Mobile Barrier can be controlled/moved at will, at range? So I can make a "Tenser's Floating Disk" and get really cheap Telekinesis?

 

*Not having actually read 6E yet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Am I correct in concluding from some of the things said in this discussion*, that a Mobile Barrier can be controlled/moved at will, at range? So I can make a "Tenser's Floating Disk" and get really cheap Telekinesis?

 

*Not having actually read 6E yet.

 

You can not use Barrier to exert force, so whilst it would be a GM call, I'd suspect not, at least technically - however it is such a good idea it would be wrong to disallow it

[ghost-angel]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Tenser's Floating Disc that can be broken by force: Barrier

 

Tenser's Floating Disc that cannot be broken by force Telekinesis.

 

Remember - objects that are placed on a Barrier designed to carry something exert their weight in STR Damage every Segment. Don't build it with enough DEF and it will crack under weight alone.

 

The book cautions against using Barrier as a cheap TK, as well.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

This causes me to tear up character sheets...especially because I'm jealous I didn't think of it.

 

It would appear to provide auto-healing and actually this would be fun for a major villain where the group has to cordinate their attacks on the Barrier each phase until it goes down so heroes with phases before the Barrier goes back up can take shots.

 

Ugh.

 

Sorry, that sounded to me like the sort of thing a GM would use to just to p!$$ off the PCs.

 

And I have a low tolerance for that sort of game.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Tenser's Floating Disc that can be broken by force: Barrier

 

Tenser's Floating Disc that cannot be broken by force Telekinesis.

 

Remember - objects that are placed on a Barrier designed to carry something exert their weight in STR Damage every Segment. Don't build it with enough DEF and it will crack under weight alone.

 

The book cautions against using Barrier as a cheap TK, as well.

 

I think I'd still stick with TK (and probably Physical Manifestation) for a Tenser's Floating Disc that can be broken by force. I'm not terribly comfortable with the mobility of a Barrier allowing enough force to move a significant weight as well as keeping it aloft. Worst case I might require some limited TK to be Linked in with the Barrier.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Probably a good call, all things considered.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

Ugh.

 

Sorry, that sounded to me like the sort of thing a GM would use to just to p!$$ off the PCs.

 

And I have a low tolerance for that sort of game.

To each his own. My players prefer challenges that require thinking and teamwork rather than rolling piles of dice. I think they would find it interesting to have to determine the source and limits of the villain's defense before they could claim victory, instead of just steamrolling him.

 

One of the advantages to playing with the same people for a long time is trust. Just as I trust the player whom this thread is based on to tweak his power so it does not disrupt our game, my hopes are that my players trust me not to do things "just to p!$$ off the PCs".

[Jagged]

Re: Barrier Issue

 

I would be naturally suspicious of someone with that power

 

Can I hear a Booya?