Generation starships and their internal society structure

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

No. There is only suck' date=' and suck more.[/quote']

Then what is your criteria for a government under those circumstances which sucks least? Really trying to find you objection to dictatorship other than the name, and you are not helping.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

We're better off not doing it' date=' than doing it at such a price.[/quote']

Then if invited, don't go. In another thread weren't you making a big, fat hairy deal about a MAJORITY imposing their values on everyone? So we as a species are not to consider this long term species survival strategy because ONE PERSON fears something morally objectionable MIGHT happen in the process?

 

You are getting almost as dogmatic as another poster about stating your opinions as unchallengeable self-evident facts, which they are not.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And you'd have your solution on a normal ship.

 

But it's not. It's a multi-generational voyage. Anyone born on the ship is stuck there, through no fault of their own.

 

"Too bad you don't want to be a recycling system engineer, but that's what the ship needs, and that's all that matters."

 

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but you are currently in a milder version of the exact same situation. For your average person born in a given nation (say the US), they are stuck there through no fault of their own. Those born into wealth can move elsewhere, but most people are blue-collar working class who cannot.

 

In my area, most of the blue collars would rather work at the steel mill, like their fathers did. But the mills closed. So it's "Too bad you don't want to work at McDonalds, but that's what the city needs, and that's all that matters."

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Then if invited' date=' don't go.[/quote']

 

That's not much help to anyone born along the way, is it?

 

In another thread weren't you making a big' date=' fat hairy deal about a MAJORITY imposing their values on everyone? So we as a species are not to consider this long term species survival strategy because ONE PERSON fears something morally objectionable MIGHT happen in the process?[/quote']

 

Not "might", "will". I'm somewhat reminded of the old saying that it's better to die on the feet than live on your knees.

 

You are getting almost as dogmatic as another poster about stating your opinions as unchallengeable self-evident facts' date=' which they are not.[/quote']

 

If you say so.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Well' date=' not to put too fine a point on it, but you are currently in a milder version of the exact same situation. For your average person born in a given nation [i'](say the US)[/i], they are stuck there through no fault of their own. Those born into wealth can move elsewhere, but most people are blue-collar working class who cannot.

 

I've actually tried to point that out in another thread, in response to the "If you don't want to go along with it you can always leave the country" argument.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Then what is your criteria for a government under those circumstances which sucks least? Really trying to find you objection to dictatorship other than the name' date=' and you are not helping.[/quote']

 

A dictatorship, by its very nature, has no rule of law, no checks, no balances, no limits on the exercise of power, and little hope for justice.

 

At least a democracy can strive to have those things. However, in the situation at hand, there is no hope for a just society. A significant minority will end up being trampled on by the rest.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I've actually tried to point that out in another thread' date=' in response to the "If you don't want to go along with it you can always leave the country" argument.[/quote']

 

Gee, one could hazard a guess that you must be unhappy most of the time. What I mean is: what exactly is the solution to this unhappy state of affairs? What sort of society or political system could fix this? I can't think of any.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

A dictatorship, by its very nature, has no rule of law, no checks, no balances, no limits on the exercise of power, and little hope for justice.

 

Unless of course the dictator is a just person.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Unless of course the dictator is a just person.

 

Huh?

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Gee' date=' one could hazard a guess that you must be unhappy most of the time. [/quote']

 

One could.

 

What I mean is: what exactly is the solution to this unhappy state of affairs? What sort of society or political system could fix this? I can't think of any.

 

You establish the rules so that people cannot impose their will or inflict harm upon other persons any more than the bare minimum of what is absolutely necessary, and demand that people keep their business to themselves.

 

"I don't care what goes on in your house between consenting adults, so long as it doesn't get on my lawn or in my face."

 

Not really possible on a generation ship, according to most in this discussion -- evidently, such a setup would require tight controls over the minutia and choices of everyone's daily life.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

 

Not really possible on a generation ship, according to most in this discussion -- evidently, such a setup would require tight controls over the minutia and choices of everyone's daily life.

 

I am unable to find anyone who proposed that.

[Sundog]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Huh?

 

If the dictator is just, his rulings will be just.

 

As to the "no rule of law..etc" part, that is only true in an absolute autocracy, such as a militarily imposed dictatorship or a cult of personality. Most other forms of autocracy do limit the autocrat, sometimes by a considerable amount.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

If the dictator is just' date=' his rulings will be just.[/quote']

 

I don't think that's possible. Eventually, the dictator will impose his will without regard to the will of the subjects, and he is no longer just.

 

As to the "no rule of law..etc" part' date=' that is only true in an absolute autocracy, such as a militarily imposed dictatorship or a cult of personality. Most other forms of autocracy do limit the autocrat, sometimes by a considerable amount.[/quote']

 

Then you've widened the catagory from "dictator" to "autocrat".

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Yes.

 

The universe has consistent, predictable laws, even if we do not fully understand them, or it doesn't. If x then y. If you have if x then sometimes y, there is a variable you are not accounting for, and once you isolate that variable If x then y under conditions z is predictable.

 

And as I asked before, how does "predictability" as you describe link to the "causality" bugbear of spacetime and FTL discussions?

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I am unable to find anyone who proposed that.

 

They have, even if they don't realize it.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Dictator and autocrat are synonyms.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

You establish the rules so that people cannot impose their will or inflict harm upon other persons any more than the bare minimum of what is absolutely necessary, and demand that people keep their business to themselves.

 

"I don't care what goes on in your house between consenting adults, so long as it doesn't get on my lawn or in my face."

Don't tell me, let me guess, you are a fan of the novels of L. Neil Smith, correct?

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Don't tell me' date=' let me guess, you are a fan of the novels of L. Neil Smith, correct? [/quote']

 

Haven't read them.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Haven't read them.

 

Then I think you have a treat in store! L. Neil Smith novels describe societies that are pretty much along the principles you set out, and contrast them with the dysfunctional societies like the one currently present in the US. The first in the series is The Probability Broach.

 

Check out the description here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Confederacy

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

They're horribly preachy and never show the downsides.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

They're horribly preachy and never show the downsides.

 

Yes, but that is not a problem if one is preaching to the choir.

I agree with your assessment, but I am not the target demographic.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I'm not actually the choir. I have... differences with the Libertarians. But enough about that.

 

Long story short (too late, I know), IMO some things are more important than survival, and I feel very sorry for anyone born during the journey of a generation ship, with absolutely no choices but submission or death.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

You'll still get the occasional maverick - it's inevitable' date=' and probably good for societal health [/quote']

 

It's more than just good, really--- it provides "surplus workers" for those jobs that have a higher-than-normal casualty rate:

 

engineers, external repair people, perhaps-- if it's possible-- smaller survey ships that scout ahead for possible alternate planets or raw materials, etc.

 

Unless every aspect of the ship is automated (which seems dangerous, given human nature and our preference for leisure. This might encourage us to not bother learning how to do something ourselves), there will always be one or more fields of service that will have a slightly higher casualty rate. The "mavericks" could be offered any number of positions in these fields. Any that agree means one less unhappy citizen.

 

Further, these same fields could, upon opening, be offered to others who are unhappy with their current lot. Odds are, however, that re-education would be the primary tool for addressing this issue. Still, it is interesting to consider that there might be alternatives.

 

We're better off not doing it' date=' than doing it at such a price.[/quote']

 

Is that not you enforcing your will upon everyone who disagrees?

 

No matter; I was interested in the answer when I first stumbled across that (I've been playing catch-up with this thread), but now I am no longer interested. It's nothing personal, and it's not meant to be insulting. I actually have several tabs open with quotes of yours that I _wanted_ to address, until I ran across these two:

 

I'm somewhat reminded of the old saying that it's better to die on the feet than live on your knees.

 

So which is it?

 

Which is better? Stand for what you believe in (so long as it doesn't disagree with you, anyway), or live doing something you do not want to do? Serving someone, or patiently waiting for your entire race to die in the bloated red cherry of your once-yellow sun?

 

How do you propose to have it both ways? Death on the G-ship is unacceptable. It is completely wrong to have to have to die as opposed to doing something you don't want to do (though really, I don't push that far. I suspect that malcontents will be few enough that allowances can be made, even if it's just keeping a list of who's unhappy doing what and offering them some trade-outs. Sheesh. This jumping straight to "the horror of subjugation" from that-- pretty intense. Pretty jumpy, but pretty intense.)

 

So having to die instead of doing something you don't want to do is completely wrong. But then again, it's better to die standing than live ---

 

whatever it was.

 

By the same token then, killing is wrong and governments of all stripe evil, and it's better to stand for what you believe in. Supposing that something I believe in is living under a different government? It should, then, be better for me to stage revolution-- which will probably result in a lot of killing one way or the other-- than to continue to live in subjugation under a dictator?

 

But that can't be, because killing is wrong, even if it is better to die killing than to live "unfree."

 

It goes on and on in circles, because Moral Absolutism only works in a society of One. Well, it could work in a society of one hundred, provided ninety-nine of them are dead. Pointless arguing is an immoral use of time that we can't get rebated, yet it seems to be the #2 purpose of the entire internet.

 

My apologies. I have digressed far further than I intended. I _had_ been curious to hear your position. I have heard on this thread an others numerous things that you are against. I'm getting the idea that it might be you are against _all_ things, which is perfectly fine; I merely wanted to hear (read) it stated.

 

Then I found this:

 

 

 

They have' date=' even if they don't realize it.[/quote']

 

And I lost all interest.

 

While I am certain it is only rude, and not immoral, to call out every single methodology as inferior, corruptible, unworkable, wrong, a-moral, flawed-- whatever-- without actually stating your own position with any sort of clarity, it certainly makes discussion difficult.

 

However, at the point where you are putting words into everyone else's mouths, it makes it pointless, and therefore of little interest and less value.

 

and possibly immoral. I guess that depends on your still-unstated values.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

They're horribly preachy and never show the downsides.

 

 

Kind of like the Berenstein Bears do politics.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

A dictatorship' date=' by its very nature, has no rule of law, no checks, no balances, no limits on the exercise of power, and little hope for justice. [/quote']

Four out of five.

If the dictator is just' date=' his rulings will be just. [/quote']

I don't think that's possible. Eventually' date=' the dictator will impose his will without regard to the will of the subjects, and he is no longer just.[/quote']

Not only can it be done, it has been done. The Romans gave Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus absolute power in 458 BCE when the bulk of the Roman army was lead into an ambush and besieged by the Aequians in the Alban Hills. He instituted universal conscription, ordering every man of military age to report to the Field of Mars by the end of the day. He personally lead the infantry while his deputy, Lucius Tarquitius, led the cavalry. The double prong attack broke through the siege and allowed Cincinnatus' conscript militia to join forces with the regular army. He accepted surrender from the bulk of the Aequian troops rather than slaughtering them. He then disbanded his army, returned power to the elected consuls, Minucius Esquilinus and Horatius Pulvillus, and was back on his farm sixteen days after being nominated Dictator.

 

Absolute power can corrupt, not must corrupt.