Generation starships and their internal society structure

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorship

 

And what happens to people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of a "benevolent" dictator?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Why, they're free to leave, obviously.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And what happens to people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of a "benevolent" dictator?

What happens to lawbreakers in any society? On a generation ship, exile is not an option. What options are there for any shipboard government for people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of whomever is in charge? Inside a very limited zero-sum ecology is no place to practice anarchy.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

What happens to lawbreakers in any society? On a generation ship' date=' exile is not an option. What options are there for any shipboard government for people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of whomever is in charge? Inside a very limited zero-sum ecology is no place to practice anarchy.[/quote']

 

Anarchy vs dictatorship being a binary dichotomy?

 

If you're going to say that an absolutist structure is necessary on a generation ship, fine, but don't try to depict any such society as "benevolent".

[Sundog]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Anarchy vs dictatorship being a binary dichotomy?

 

If you're going to say that an absolutist structure is necessary on a generation ship, fine, but don't try to depict any such society as "benevolent".

 

Why not? As we've pointed out, autocracy (and oligarchy) need not lead to tyranny. In some situations, absolute obedience to decisions made is necessary for survival - this is why even most liberal republics and democracies have "emergency powers" available at need to the executive. This does not mean they are not benevolent - merely that they acknowledge the occasional messiness of reality.

 

A properly constituted autocratic state provides for the needs of it's citizens, enforces the laws, and ensures public order - a triad no different from that in a properly constituted democratic state. How is this less then benevolent?

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And what happens to people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of a "benevolent" dictator?

 

What happens to lawbreakers in any society? On a generation ship' date=' exile is not an option. What options are there for any shipboard government for people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of whomever is in charge? Inside a very limited zero-sum ecology is no place to practice anarchy.[/quote']

 

Anarchy vs dictatorship being a binary dichotomy?

 

If you're going to say that an absolutist structure is necessary on a generation ship, fine, but don't try to depict any such society as "benevolent".

Answer the question. In an environment, such as a ship, where the acts of a single individual can endanger up to the entire population, how does the most benign government you can imagine deal with people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of whomever is in charge?

 

I think Duke Bushido has the right answer: They're free to leave. Close the airlock behind you.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Or failing that, state why the first dictatorship of Cincinnatus (458 BCE) was not benevolent.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And what happens to people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of a "benevolent" dictator?

 

Remember that I commented that the popular democracy approach to running a generation ship might very end up voting at regular intervals about who will be chosen for recycling?

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Remember that I commented that the popular democracy approach to running a generation ship might very end up voting at regular intervals about who will be chosen for recycling?

 

And who said that a democracy was automatically benevolent and just?

 

You still need rule of law, civil society, due process, and checks on the whims of the the voters.

 

Sorta reminds me of another dicussion.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Answer the question. In an environment, such as a ship, where the acts of a single individual can endanger up to the entire population, how does the most benign government you can imagine deal with people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of whomever is in charge?

 

I think Duke Bushido has the right answer: They're free to leave. Close the airlock behind you.

 

And you'd have your solution on a normal ship.

 

But it's not. It's a multi-generational voyage. Anyone born on the ship is stuck there, through no fault of their own.

 

"Too bad you don't want to be a recycling system engineer, but that's what the ship needs, and that's all that matters."

[Jagged]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

"Too bad you don't want to be a recycling system engineer, but that's what the ship needs, and that's all that matters."

 

I have to respond that while you and I may personally not like it there is no reason why a society may not operate perfectly successfully while dictating to the individual what job they have to do and who they have to marry. We don't like the idea because we have certain expectations. Expectations that come entirely from the societies we have been born into. After all I believe that in the history of Western society chosing exactly who you marry is a fairly new thing.

 

I could also envision the possibility that a society that dictated the job of the individual might be far more efficient. Imagine a world where community leaders where chosen because they were suitable rather than because they aspired to political power. I could also imagine that in an enclosed world like a generation ship every "job" would have equal worth and while it would be inevitable that some jobs might be preferable to others (risk or effort?) if all rewards are shared equally that might do away with a significant amount of job envy. Might

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I have to respond that while you and I may personally not like it there is no reason why a society may not operate perfectly successfully while dictating to the individual what job they have to do and who they have to marry. We don't like the idea because we have certain expectations. Expectations that come entirely from the societies we have been born into. After all I believe that in the history of Western society chosing exactly who you marry is a fairly new thing.

 

I could also envision the possibility that a society that dictated the job of the individual might be far more efficient. Imagine a world where community leaders where chosen because they were suitable rather than because they aspired to political power. I could also imagine that in an enclosed world like a generation ship every "job" would have equal worth and while it would be inevitable that some jobs might be preferable to others (risk or effort?) if all rewards are shared equally that might do away with a significant amount of job envy. Might

 

This is where I simply say "moral and cultural relativism are bunk" and leave it at that.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And you'd have your solution on a normal ship.

 

But it's not. It's a multi-generational voyage. Anyone born on the ship is stuck there, through no fault of their own.

 

"Too bad you don't want to be a recycling system engineer, but that's what the ship needs, and that's all that matters."

 

It IS what matters. Actually necessary decisions to keep the population alive, however harsh, are still benevolent. It wouldn't be a bad idea of course to design your generation ship so that it isn't dependent on much participation from the passengers for maintenance and day to day operations. That way a temporary collapse of social order will not in fact kill everyone.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And you'd have your solution on a normal ship.

 

But it's not. It's a multi-generational voyage. Anyone born on the ship is stuck there, through no fault of their own.

 

"Too bad you don't want to be a recycling system engineer, but that's what the ship needs, and that's all that matters."

 

It's true. It does suck. But look at it the other way. I'd like to be an independently wealthy playboy, living a numinously exciting life of adventure.

Stupid society won't let me.

I hate this generational starship I'm stuck on. Pretty much my only choice is to recycle myself, and it is not really a choice, so I suppose I'll conform to society's requirements.

Wait, it turns out that it's not so bad, after all! You adapt, find your pleasures where you can, and, in the end, thank society for telling me to suck it up and get on.

(Not that this is a universal prescription, by any means. I don't want to tell anyone suffering from inconsolable longing for what is not that they should just get over it. Just that in the end, we find a way to make life work for ourselves within the constraints of what is, in the end, just a very large generational starship.)

[Gnaskar]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Ok' date=' sorry, but I'm just out of this thread.[/quote']

 

And this is where I get off.

 

This is where I simply say "moral and cultural relativism are bunk" and leave it at that.

 

Moral Absolutism is bunk. This I learned from a decade at various international schools. There may be some things like "killing is bad" that most people agree on, but once you get into the details everyone has different opinions. Is it Right to kill a man those trying to kill you? To kill a man for your country? To kill a demon child? A spider? A cow? A legally trialed rapist or murderer? A cute fluffy kitten?

 

If there was an absolute and universal truth about any of these things you'd think we'd have found it by now. It is my opinion that any claims along the lines of "my view of things is correct and the others are wrong" is pure and simple arrogance, no matter if I agree with the speakers opinion or not.

 

For over 5 thousand years the majority of young men on this planet were preparing, perfectly content, to go into their fathers trade. A billion people live in the dictatorship of china (and under that rule, poverty rates have dropped 45% in two decades, it's become a economic powerhouse, and the controversial one child per couple has saved us from having another billion people to feed). Norway is a dictatorship with free press, elected officials (with his Lordship's consent) and a working health care system. By the best estimate Google could give me the human eye can see 10 million different colors; the world is far from black and white.

 

But like I said, I get off here. I make a point out of not arguing philosophy. I find such arguments are generally pointless, other than to remind me that everyone thinks differently.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And you'd have your solution on a normal ship.

 

But it's not. It's a multi-generational voyage. Anyone born on the ship is stuck there, through no fault of their own.

 

"Too bad you don't want to be a recycling system engineer, but that's what the ship needs, and that's all that matters."

Aren't you going to have that situation no matter what system of government is in place? If the ship needs recycling system engineers, and if there are no volunteers, someone is going to have to be drafted.

 

Of course you have opportunities to design a society and control socialization and education on a generation ship on a level that would not be practical anywhere else. The F1 and subsequent generations are probably raised with the attitude that all jobs are important, and that one should be cross trained in several jobs should their society have a sudden unexpected need.

 

You still didn't answer the question: In an environment, such as a ship, where the acts of a single individual can endanger up to the entire population, how does the most benign government you can imagine deal with people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of whomever is in charge?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I think the caste system is the way to go. A caste of "dirty" or "eta" or "untouchable" (handlers of waste and the dead). A caste of "those who are in charge". A caste of medical folks, a caste of structural engineers, and the like. A religious caste, organized like the Illuminati; at the higher levels you're let in on The Secret (technology, advanced science and math, how to land the ship when we get there, and so forth). The Gods Will It that the untouchables are at the bottom and the rulers are in charge of running the system (except for the ship; there's a strict divide between the religious caste and the rulers, to reduce the chances they'll decide they want to keep power and never land on a planet after all).

 

As far as what happens When We Get There.... a friend and I used to play a thought-experiment-game. With any amount of preparation you wish, and any budget, you will be whisked instantly to somewhere else. You don't know what the conditions will be like. We came to the conclusion that there's only so much reasonable preparation you can make, and that no matter how well prepared you are some environments will just kill you (for instance, you might get dropped into a pit of lava, or onto the surface of a star). As far as whether they'll be prepared for what happens when they get to the other end of the voyage, I have serious doubts that any shipboard system of governance will survive landing or even should.

 

But I'm also not sure that getting walking, living, breathing humans is a reasonable goal. I'm all for packing a small probe full of extremophiles (hot-loving or cold-loving bacteria, water bears, cockroaches, and so forth), and sending it out. Send a hundred of them out. Let them slam into likely planets. In 500 million years, you may have a hundred ecosystems, all different, or none.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

We don't know that, we've never had an AI run the government before. What if you could program a computer to run the ship with no personal ambition, just programed to maximize the safety, wellbeing, and moral of the passengers? Ultimate bread & circuses.

 

Again, not suggesting this would be a good system for a society that had access to resources and the safety valve of emigration, but might work in a zero-sum closed ecology where no one can leave.

Didn't realize it at the time, but may have been thinking of Auto, the autopilot power-behind-the-throne in the generation ship Axiom in the movie WALL•E. The passengers weren't exploited, in fact there were reasonably happy. No one worked a job they didn't want, robots did all necessary jobs. Captain McCrea is one of the few humans with a real job, and his primary function was to read the daily announcement Auto had prepared. If it were not for a certain panicked secret order from Earth (1) the movie would have been half as long and (2) happy, healthy passengers would have been returned to Earth according to plan. Benevolent AI dictator.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Anyone looking for examples of a benevolent dictatorship would do well to consider the example of Lord Vetinari from Sir Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" series. He believes in the principle of one man, one vote: he's the man and he has the vote. Armed with absolute power in the city-state of Ankh-Morpork, he has committed such atrocities as:

 

Currency reform

Equal-opportunity employment

Reduction in violent crime

Keeping Ankh-Morpork out of several wars

Establishing an effective postal system

Improving international relations

 

Is the man ruthless? Yes, he is: he will not stand for any threat to the peace, prosperity, and good moral standing of his people.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Aren't you going to have that situation no matter what system of government is in place? If the ship needs recycling system engineers, and if there are no volunteers, someone is going to have to be drafted.

 

Of course you have opportunities to design a society and control socialization and education on a generation ship on a level that would not be practical anywhere else. The F1 and subsequent generations are probably raised with the attitude that all jobs are important, and that one should be cross trained in several jobs should their society have a sudden unexpected need.

 

You still didn't answer the question: In an environment, such as a ship, where the acts of a single individual can endanger up to the entire population, how does the most benign government you can imagine deal with people who don't agree with or don't go along with the decisions of whomever is in charge?

 

It is not possible for a government to be benign, benevolent, or all that moral/ethical in such an situation.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

It is not possible for a government to be benign' date=' benevolent, or all that moral/ethical in such an situation.[/quote']

Then a dictatorship is, in your opinion, no worse than any other system in those situations?

[Sundog]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

What, you think the majority of people on earth today don't face much the same situation? If you're born to subsistence farmers in South America, India, China, Africa, well, chances are you're going to be a subsistence farmer.

 

This is why I recommended a feudal state as the model for an on-board society. People don't become unhappy with a lack of social mobility if they are actively discouraged from believing that it's even possible by their society. You'll still get the occasional maverick - it's inevitable, and probably good for societal health - but the end result of that is almost always either a trip to the gallows or getting co-opted by the state.

 

From our high-freedom society's viewpoint it's less than optimal, but it's also a means to preserve civlization and spread humanity. And with our current technology, the only one we could actually do, and likely to be so for some time to come. I, for one, feel the restriction of some generations to pay for the freedom and survival of future ones is a price worth paying.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

This is why I recommended a feudal state as the model for an on-board society. People don't become unhappy with a lack of social mobility if they are actively discouraged from believing that it's even possible by their society. You'll still get the occasional maverick - it's inevitable' date=' and probably good for societal health - but the end result of that is almost always either a trip to the gallows or getting co-opted by the state.[/quote']

Those individuals would probably be happier and more useful after the ship reaches its destination. Too bad they couldn't be put in some sort of hibernation. But if that kind of cold sleep technology was available, you wouldn't need generation ships in the first place.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Then a dictatorship is' date=' in your opinion, no worse than any other system in those situations?[/quote']

 

No. There is only suck, and suck more.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

What, you think the majority of people on earth today don't face much the same situation? If you're born to subsistence farmers in South America, India, China, Africa, well, chances are you're going to be a subsistence farmer.

 

This is why I recommended a feudal state as the model for an on-board society. People don't become unhappy with a lack of social mobility if they are actively discouraged from believing that it's even possible by their society. You'll still get the occasional maverick - it's inevitable, and probably good for societal health - but the end result of that is almost always either a trip to the gallows or getting co-opted by the state.

 

From our high-freedom society's viewpoint it's less than optimal, but it's also a means to preserve civlization and spread humanity. And with our current technology, the only one we could actually do, and likely to be so for some time to come. I, for one, feel the restriction of some generations to pay for the freedom and survival of future ones is a price worth paying.

 

We're better off not doing it, than doing it at such a price.