Generation starships and their internal society structure

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

If I understand you' date=' you are arguing that the past is deterministic, which is more or less Consistency Protection.

 

But again, this is a thread hijack.

 

I"ll read the link you provided later and reply privately. I'm not familiar with the term "Consistency Protection." From the sound, I'd _like_ to say "yes," but I don't want to do so uniformedly.

 

My apologies for the thread jack. I was wanting merely to reply to your suggested "paradox" of blowing up the ship you were in before you got in it.

 

I would like to make one reply to another post on the subject of paradox, if I may, and then I'll let it lay:

 

 

... Of course' date=' as our society doesn't have any record of this presence, they must keep a low profile, wich is where some naive but good willed paranormal detective players enter the scene...[/quote']

 

That's just it: the don't have to keep a low profile. There is absolutely nothing that men from the future can do in their past that will make a whit of difference, because relative to their history, they have already done it. They can make the talk show circuit, if they want, because they already have. It will affect our future, subjectively, but it won't actually change their past.

 

(my second gripe with Time Travel is that, carried to its logical extremes, it mandates that _everything_ is predestined, and nothing we can do will change anything. Rather depressing for us ambitious types ).

 

 

 

 

Anyway' date=' why would a generation ship have to go FTL to travel somewhere? As long as it gets to relativistic speed, due to time dilation, the people in it might get to places thousands of LY away in no more than three generations, isn't it?[/quote']

 

It doesn't. G-ships are the "alternative" to FTL. As to your time dilation question--

 

well, I'll put that in the new thread I keep hoping to have time to put up.

[Lucius]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

And also worth noting that Darwin wrote his book to justify slavery.

 

I have two questions.

 

1. Is there a reason you say this?

 

2. Do you care whether or not it's true?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has a question: if there is a reason, what is it?

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

If you read the link' date=' you will see that there are four ways of avoiding time paradoxes: Parallel Universes, Consistency Protection, Restricted Space-Time Areas, and Special Frames. The latter three are examples of the Novikov self-consistency principle.

 

They all have problems.

Consistency Protection, better known to this audience as Silver Age time travel rules ("When will I learn? You can't *choke* change the past!")

 

And Parallel Universes, Bronze Age Omniversal Theory time travel rules.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Benevolent Dictatorship

 

Oxymoron.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Oxymoron.

We don't know that, we've never had an AI run the government before. What if you could program a computer to run the ship with no personal ambition, just programed to maximize the safety, wellbeing, and moral of the passengers? Ultimate bread & circuses.

 

Again, not suggesting this would be a good system for a society that had access to resources and the safety valve of emigration, but might work in a zero-sum closed ecology where no one can leave.

[Kristopher]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

We don't know that, we've never had an AI run the government before. What if you could program a computer to run the ship with no personal ambition, just programed to maximize the safety, wellbeing, and moral of the passengers? Ultimate bread & circuses.

 

Again, not suggesting this would be a good system for a society that had access to resources and the safety valve of emigration, but might work in a zero-sum closed ecology where no one can leave.

 

A dictatorship is, by its very nature, not benevolent.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Since ship captains are usually dictators, but aren't that bad, I'm not sure I agree.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

A dictatorship is' date=' by its very nature, not benevolent.[/quote']

OK, prove it.

[Sundog]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Nonsense. EVERY autocratic system started out as a dictatorship, no matter what system ended up in play, and a great many of them - such as the divine Augustus - became watchwords for good and benevolent government.

[Doc]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

A dictatorship enforced by control over essential ship's life support so nobody can rebel.

 

But they well might even though; there's no absolute way to prevent rebelion (fortunately...).

 

 

It's a good point that the actual social order is most likely to be determined by who is going and why.

 

That's the point; it is absolutely true, as no society can develop without taking parts of its social background within it.

 

 

Since ship captains are usually dictators' date=' but aren't that bad, I'm not sure I agree.[/quote']

 

Yes, but he still has to respond from his acts in front of a democratic society (if this is the case). Sailors' social conditions today in western countries aren't comparable at all to what they were in 1700 when the captain literally had the right of life or death over all his NCOs (it was different for officiers, ie nobles).

 

 

OK' date=' prove it.[/quote']

 

To kill and torture people to stay in power, for whatever reason, is in itself malevolent and it is a defining part of a dictatorship.

 

 

Nonsense. EVERY autocratic system started out as a dictatorship' date=' no matter what system ended up in play, and a great many of them - such as the divine Augustus - became watchwords for good and benevolent government.[/quote']

 

Yeah, Roman Empire, good thing... Remember Nero watching the city burning? Come on guys, this "benevolent dictature" thing is just gross. Where there is power, there are priviledges; when power is unfettered, priviledges also are, wich condemn most of the population to misery. Remember the Berlin Wall? It wasn't build to stop people from western powers to flee to the east... And I want to precise that a do not condone western regimes, but I do understand that they are less brutal to their people.

 

Than again, I wish to specify that a AI dictature is well enough to me in game terms, but I have difficulties seeing the line between real political beleifs and game setting development in all this discussion...

 

 

That's just it: the don't have to keep a low profile. There is absolutely nothing that men from the future can do in their past that will make a whit of difference' date=' because relative to their history, they have already done it. They can make the talk show circuit, if they want, because they already have. It will affect our future, subjectively, but it won't actually change their past.[/quote']

 

You're right; I added this feature just because we, today, don't have any trace of future travelers living with us (and it might be more interesting, anyway, in my king of games, than having them go on tv, but it is a personal taste indeed).

 

 

It doesn't. G-ships are the "alternative" to FTL. As to your time dilation question-- well' date=' I'll put that in the new thread I keep hoping to have time to put up. [/quote']

 

I don't understand. Do you mean in game terms? Because unless the ship cannot go to relativistic speed (I'm not talking about FTL), it will "benefit" from time dilation; time will go more slowly in the ship than on earth. Look there:

 

http://home.att.net/~srschmitt/script_starship.html

 

For a 10 000 LY trip, at 0,99C, there is a little less than 20 years passing in the ship; quite enough to let people arrive alive at destination, even though it is quite far away (of course, a little more than 10 000 years have passed on earth at arrival…).

 

Of course, g-ships are still needed for travels at much lower speeds…

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

But they well might even though; there's no absolute way to prevent rebelion (fortunately...).

 

Ensuring that no rebellion will be successful as long as they are on board the ship is sufficient. The point if you will recall, is to ensure that the ship will arrive at destination without having compromised ships life support or manuevering capability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To kill and torture people to stay in power, for whatever reason, is in itself malevolent and it is a defining part of a dictatorship.

 

The ships computer has no need to kill and torture people to stay in power. Democratic regimes on the other hand, do need to kill and imprison people to stay in power.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Roman Empire, good thing... Remember Nero watching the city burning?

 

Nero was not one of the more well-regarded emperors even though the accusation about him causing the first is doubtless a canard.

 

 

I don't understand. Do you mean in game terms? Because unless the ship cannot go to relativistic speed (I'm not talking about FTL), :

 

Which it can't. The idea of propelling a large payload at relativistic speed is only slightly less fantastic than the idea of FTL.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

What if you could program a computer to run the ship with no personal ambition' date=' just programed to maximize the safety, wellbeing, and moral of the passengers? Ultimate bread & circuses.[/quote']

That can get nasty as well. You can wind up with a dystopian nanny-state. The benevolent computer will dictate your diet (because junk food and the like will shorten your lifespan), your job (you can't be a fireman, that's too dangerous!), and your relationships (you and his lady you've never met must be married right now, for your wellbeing).

And if you rebel against this, you are obviously an unwell individual, and must be psychologically re-programmed for your own good. Or lobotomized.

 

See the novels "With Folded Hands" and "The Mad Metropolis"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands

http://sfpaperbacks.com/display.php?book=222

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

A dictatorship is' date=' by its very nature, not benevolent.[/quote']

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorship

 

The benevolent dictatorship is a more modern version of enlightened absolutism[citation needed], being an undemocratic or authoritarian leader who exercises his or her political power for the benefit of the people rather than exclusively for his or her own self-interest or benefit, or for the benefit of only a small portion of the people. A benevolent dictator, for example, may focus government priorities on matters of public importance, such as healthcare, education, population control, or general city infrastructure. According to the Donella Meadows Archive former prime minister of Singapore Lee Kuan Yew was a benevolent dictator.[1] He or she may be committed to peaceful relations, rather than wars or invasions of other states, and may even allow for some democratic decision-making to exist, such as through public referendums.

 

Alistair Cooke described Franklin Delano Roosevelt's presidency in the two years from his inauguration to Supreme Court's declaration that the National Recovery Administration was unconstitutional, as a benevolent dictatorship.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

That can get nasty as well. You can wind up with a dystopian nanny-state. The benevolent computer will dictate your diet (because junk food and the like will shorten your lifespan)' date=' [/quote']

 

They are in a generation ship. Resources are limited and there is no junk food.

 

your job (you can't be a fireman, that's too dangerous!),

They are in a generation ship. Jobs are either important to the survival of ship and passengers or they don't exist.

 

and your relationships (you and his lady you've never met must be married right now, for your wellbeing).

They are in a generation ship. Everyone knows everybody else, (and is related to everyone else unless they are using artificial insemination to refresh the gene pool.)

[Sundog]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

 

 

To kill and torture people to stay in power, for whatever reason, is in itself malevolent and it is a defining part of a dictatorship.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Roman Empire, good thing... Remember Nero watching the city burning? Come on guys, this "benevolent dictature" thing is just gross. Where there is power, there are priviledges; when power is unfettered, priviledges also are, wich condemn most of the population to misery. Remember the Berlin Wall? It wasn't build to stop people from western powers to flee to the east... And I want to precise that a do not condone western regimes, but I do understand that they are less brutal to their people.

 

 

I must entirely and unreservedly disagree. MANY dictators do resort to violence and torture to maintain their regimes - but that is hardly all, and certainly NOT the defining characteristic of dictatorship.

 

And if your argument against Augustus is Nero, well, that is no argument at all. Augustus ruled well, benevolently, and if he was ruthless, recall that ruthlessness was a quality admired in Rome. He built; it is said that he found Rome a city of brick and left it a city of marble. His rule was long, and he granted the people the one thing they wanted most: stability.

 

If you wish to contrast this with Nero, go ahead; we both know who will come out second best. More importantly, however, it will show nothing. The fact that a lesser man succumbed to temptation, and was a lesser ruler, does not change, now or ever, the accomplishments of the benevolent dictator, Augustus.

[Peregrine]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

It's different. There they do have outside threats and resources.

 

True. But gaining independence from said outside resources (and isolating themselves from said outside threats) is one of the major objectives of the arcology project.

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I just had a mental image. A big activity of the passengers would be learning about their objective, watching the ongoing flow of information from the probe that was sent to the destination in advance and trying to figure out the local ecology. Which means that you could end up with a situation where the occupants of a generation ship know, generations before they arrive, that a faster ship already beat them there and is establishing a colony.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

They are in a generation ship. Resources are limited and there is no junk food.

They are in a generation ship. Jobs are either important to the survival of ship and passengers or they don't exist.

They are in a generation ship. Everyone knows everybody else, (and is related to everyone else unless they are using artificial insemination to refresh the gene pool.)

Again, I am not making myself clear.

Didn't you read the summary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands#Summary

[Clonus]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Again, I am not making myself clear.

Didn't you read the summary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands#Summary

 

I read the book. But that's just a really badly designed AI.

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

To kill and torture people to stay in power' date=' for whatever reason, is in itself malevolent and it is a defining part of a dictatorship.[/quote']

Really?

 

dic⋅ta⋅tor

–noun

1. a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

2. (in ancient Rome) a person invested with supreme authority during a crisis, the regular magistracy being subordinated to him until the crisis was met.

3. a person who authoritatively prescribes conduct, usage, etc.: a dictator of fashion.

4. a person who dictates, as to a secretary.

 

Humm, nothing about torture being required.

 

It's from the Latin dictā, to speak, and refers to one who's Word is Law. Every parent who has ever said tho their child "my roof, my rules" is a dictator in their own house, some more benevolent than others.

 

While dictatorships have not always worked out well, no form of government has always worked out well, not all have descended into murderous tyranny. Cincinnatus springs to mind. His first dictatorship worked so well that the Romans asked him to take up the office again, eleven years later.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I mentioned a "second type" of G-ship methodology in my post about using the corporate structure as a societal model.

 

I've found a few minutes, and present the second model:

 

 

Some few hundred years after the first wave of G-ships, a second wave was being prepared. In order to ensure both a tight sense of camaraderie amongst the members of the G-ship and in the hopes of improving survival for the colonists on a number of "second choice" worlds, the colonists for the second wave genetically constructed both to alter their appearances and needs and in the hopes that the physical differences would create a sense of "different from us" amongst the colonists.

 

The earlier "three generations around the sun" model was followed, and the time was used instill in the colonists a very real feeling of "we are the only examples of our kind" and "we must find a world so that our people will flourish." They knew they were of human stock, etc, but they also knew that they were different enough as to be less-than-suited for earth itself.

 

 

I have no idea what you would call that for the list of ideas: survival instinct ramped up by isolationism?

 

At any rate, that was the second artificial model for G-ships in the background history for our Space Opera setting.

[Doc]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Ok, sorry, but I'm just out of this thread.

[Nyrath]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I read the book. But that's just a really badly designed AI.

Ummmm, the problem is that it almost impossible to avoid a bad AI design in this case. It is easy to have an AI that sounds the alarm when the percentage of carbon monoxide in the crew's atmosphere rises above 100 ppm. It is almost impossible teach an AI the difference between "safe" and "stifling". (it is difficult to teach the difference to my wife, much less a computer)

 

Especially so if you are using a neural network or other "learning" type of AI. Blasted thing evolves. You'll wind up with a situation like in James P. Hogan's novel THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW. Which, by the way, would make a great Star Hero scenario.

 

If you want to actually experiment with programming your own AI, I recommend the AI Game Programming Wisdom books. I've got them all, and they are solid gold.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

Ok' date=' sorry, but I'm just out of this thread.[/quote']

 

Was it something I said?

[McCoy]

Re: Generation starships and their internal society structure

 

I just had a mental image. A big activity of the passengers would be learning about their objective' date=' watching the ongoing flow of information from the probe that was sent to the destination in advance and trying to figure out the local ecology. Which means that you could end up with a situation where the occupants of a generation ship know, generations before they arrive, that a faster ship already beat them there and is establishing a colony.[/quote']

Good point. In which case they can open communication with the existing colony and be oriented and ready to assimilate by the time they get there. They have genetic diversity to offer if nothing else.