Creating Hero d20

[fredrik_nilsson]

Hi!

 

I have a problem. For the games I want to run I need a flexible game system, cable of creating any character (and so on), but several of my players are die hard d20 addicts. The simple answer would be, change players, but I like the players (after all they are my friends).

 

I've tried "Mutants and Masterminds" (MnM), but I find it a bit unprecise. You can do what you want, but it's hard to do exactly what you want. SAS d20 fell through for some reason I can't remember.

 

What I really what is to play something akin to the Hero System, so to "solve" the problem I intend to do a hybrid between the Hero system and the d20 system. Not totally unlike MnM, but more detailed and better at simulating any genre.

 

My hopes is that this hybrid will help me to convert at least some of the players into trying the real Hero system.

 

Can someone please help me with ideas on how to do this?

[fredrik_nilsson]

Hero d20 - First ideas

 

What I want is a flexible system, cable of handling any genre. Green Ronin showed with MnM that there is a possiblity to do this. It would be plain silly to not take inpiration from their success, especially since some of the best this can be freely downloaded from the Wizards of the Coasts home pages as part of the System Reference Document (SRD).

 

These parts of the d20 works well enough to be left as they are:

 

Attributes

--------------

With the exception of Body and Comeliness, all the characteristics are there under other names. This is after all a game for d20 players so, the d20 names for the characteristics could remain.

 

Skills

-------

The d20 skill system works well enough as it is. The only fixing needed is to add Hero skills that aren't included in the normal d20 setup.

 

Saves

-------

For most games I see no problem with the saves, so I would keep them to.

 

Combat

----------

These part needs fixing, but as MnM showed it doesn't take much work to change it into something less hack 'n slash and more "enjoyable" (I couldn't find a better word for it).

 

Levels

--------

The game should be classless, but the max per level should remain. Just like in MnM and the recommendations in the beginning of FRed. For a start (it might change during creation) I thought that 25 base character points could equal one level. That would make a 200 base CP character an 8th level hero. Naturally these levels shouldn't be as rigid as they are in a normal d20 game. The max. are more recommandations, just like the ones in the beginning of FRed.

 

These parts needs to be changed:

 

Templates/Packages

----------------------------

Even if I think races and classes should be removed I think some recommendation on how to build them in the Hero d20 should be included. Like the archetypes in the Champions book, or the "Genre by Genre" document.

 

Powers

----------

This is the part I need most help with. I have an idea that as a recommendation a character could start of with max his level times five in active points in any power. Naturally this is just a first guess. It might be scaled up or down a few points.

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, the 13.3333 equal level encounters recommended for leveling in D&D (and projectable to d20 in general) equates nicely to 13.333 Experience Points per level. Round off to 15 points per level and you are in business.

 

At that rate characters will "level" consistently every 5 sessions with an average 3 XP per session, and faster or slower if you award higher or lower XP on average (such as for a major success or failure)....

[VictorVonDoom]

the powers remain the same just some common sense thing when using them or converting them...give use some and we see what we can do with them? take the name from the Herobooks and change them like this ... and then you should do this:

 

- limiiations would become flaws

- advantages would become extras

- powers in EC frameworks become powerstunts to the power you selected that are dirived from or better if they are already describted in the book...

- disadvantages become weaknesses

- take the scores from the mm game (str,...)

 

say

-drain 3d6 would become drain +3 (see the option rule on damage dealing in the MM rules (boxed in rules) about how to handle dungeon dragons like damage rules in MM

 

take any power and convert each total of d6 like this

 

[powername] xd6 = [powername] +x (x defines the powerlevel)

[prestidigitator]

First of all, I recommend reading my post under "HERO/d20 house rules and mods?" for giving Hero a "d20 Skin." This essentially uses the Hero system as is, but gives it a comfortably recognizable look and feel for d20 players.

 

I actually came up with the above mentioned skin when I realized how much 3rd edition D&D stole the way characteristics and skills work directly from the Hero system. It also makes conversion (from d20 to Hero--not the other way) very simple. I am currently creating a chart to map skills and feats in d20 directly into Characteristics, Skills (many of the feats are just Skill Levels), Talents, and Powers in Hero. If "class bonus feats" and "monster bonus feats" are included, you can take any character or monster and convert them directly into the Hero system almost as fast as you can read through the character sheets, with the following exceptions:

1. Magic: The conversion actually depends on how you handle magic in D&D (not only are there a lot of options suggested in the system, but most DMs have their own ideas and House Rules anyway). In general, I think Sorcerers look like a Cosmic VPP and an End Reserve (probably with 1 character point per spell known or something), and Wizards look like a VPP with a spellbook Limitation and each spell bought with 1 Charge.
2. Saving Throws: I found saving throws really easy to define as Characteristic-based skills which everyone gets at full proficiency from their Everyman skills (you could even define them for Characteristics like Str or Int), and some rule for increasing them all simultaneously (like Per rolls as described under the Enhanced Senses Power). Then powers can take a hefty Limitation which says targets are Allowed a Saving Throw. I gave the Limitation a whole bunch of options that change its value (in a similar manner to the Requires Skill Roll Limitation), and decided that any Combat Skill Level which could normally apply to the attack can instead be used to decrease the targets' saving throw(s) by -1 (another option added to OCV, DCV, and damage); likewise the target(s) can use appropriate Skill Levels to make their saving throws easier--they are just skills (and fall into a "related group", at that). (Obviously this kind of Limitation could be applied to part of a spell in Hero, which automatically takes care of things like "half damage if saving throw is successful.")
3. Races: There aren't many of them. Just define what benefits each gives directly, and use the mapping of skills, feats, and saving throws to help.
4. Automatic Hits: Many things in d20 are defined as automatically hitting a target (they usually--but not always--allow a saving throw rather than requiring an attack roll). This is a pretty foreign concept in Hero (where even Area of Effect powers allow the Dive for Cover Maneuver). I decided a straight automatic hit was not fair to put into the system, so I instead based an Automatically Hits Advantage on Area of Effect. It doesn't change the number of targets hit, but makes your attack roll automatically succeed unless the target is taking, or aborts to, a defensive action (which includes any appropriate action--including Dodge and Dive for Cover--which the target could normally abort to help avoid the attack). When the target does act defensively, a normal attack roll is required, or allowed in the case of Dive for Cover (opposed attack/Dive for Cover rolls).

I know this may not be exactly what you are looking for. It sounds like you want a mapping the other way. I don't advise this, as Hero is an incredibly generic system in which doing just about anything is provided for, whereas d20 is an incredibly limited system, with new features arbitrated in a completely subjective fasion. It is easy to define D&D (or even d20 in general) in terms of the Hero System. Defining Hero in terms of the d20 system is darn near impossible. I believe making Hero look more comfortable to d20 enthusiasts could be a very good introduction.

 

One of my last tasks in creating a mapping will actually be to decide appropriate point totals for characters and monsters of various levels in d20. I will do this by summing up the total points required to "level up" any character by considering the various Hero-mapped features you can gain by leveling up in any class, and taking either the maximum or an average. Obviously a beginning character in d20 has things beyond what the first level in his/her class provides: extra skill points, a feat, etc. These things (plus racial package points and the maximum features from the 1st level of any class) come directly from the Base Points and maximum Disadvantages allowed for starting characters.

[cutsleeve]

13.3 encounters to level

 

the statement that it takes 13.3 encounters of equal level for a four member party in D&D isnt accurate after 1st level if you do the math it goes up in an expanding fashion after the first level. at one point i actually plotted out the entire progression of xp gain versus ex needed to level up each level to level 20 by the time you reach about level 18 it takes about 100 encounters to gain a level for a four member party. I dont have my calculations now but it isnt hard to compute it.after you notice the patern of progression.

 

just thought you should know.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 13.3 encounters to level

 

Originally posted by cutsleeve

the statement that it takes 13.3 encounters of equal level for a four member party in D&D isnt accurate after 1st level if you do the math it goes up in an expanding fashion after the first level. at one point i actually plotted out the entire progression of xp gain versus ex needed to level up each level to level 20 by the time you reach about level 18 it takes about 100 encounters to gain a level for a four member party. I dont have my calculations now but it isnt hard to compute it.after you notice the patern of progression.

 

just thought you should know.

Actually it is directly stated on page 169 of the D&D 3e DMG as the very first sentence of the "Behind the Curtain" section to take exactly 13.33 (13 1/3) encounters of an EL equal to the PCs level to gain a new level.

[cutsleeve]

oops

 

ok i messed up just rechecked the math and i found i made a mistake. i rechecked the math and i think i forgot to subtract the exp already gained from the amount needed or something like that. i did the calculation after i had stayed up all night watching cartoons which goes to show you lack of sleep makes you stupid.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

First of all, I recommend reading my post under "HERO/d20 house rules and mods?" for giving Hero a "d20 Skin." This essentially uses the Hero system as is, but gives it a comfortably recognizable look and feel for d20 players.

 

I've already done that, and while the ideas look great it's not what I'm looking for.

 

I actually came up with the above mentioned skin when I realized how much 3rd edition D&D stole the way characteristics and skills work directly from the Hero system.

 

This is a "hen and egg" kind of thing. First of DnD was first, and second there are tons of systems that uses similar systems. For ex. in Sweden we have a game called Western (as in Wild West). Already in the late 80's it used a system that works almost identical to how the d20 system.

 

It also makes conversion (from d20 to Hero--not the other way) very simple.

 

I'm not intrested in a conversion, what I intend to do is a stand alone d20 game for my group.

 

I know this may not be exactly what you are looking for. It sounds like you want a mapping the other way. I don't advise this, as Hero is an incredibly generic system in which doing just about anything is provided for, whereas d20 is an incredibly limited system, with new features arbitrated in a completely subjective fasion. It is easy to define D&D (or even d20 in general) in terms of the Hero System. Defining Hero in terms of the d20 system is darn near impossible. I believe making Hero look more comfortable to d20 enthusiasts could be a very good introduction.

 

I'm sorry if I might sound rude, but I think your far off target here. First, I want a generic d20 (based on HERO), that's the entire point of this thread. Second, MnM is generic, its d20 and even if Green Ronin won't agree with me most of what's in MnM can be found in the d20 SRD. The few parts that aren't there is what's bugs me with the system, how you buy powers. In HERO you can do anything, but in MnM you have less control during power creation. Third, when I say d20 I do not refer to DnD, I mean d20 OGL, which more or less only mean that I start of with a d20 dice and the OGL. This means that the end product doesn't have to be compatible with DnD, even if that is the most common way of using the d20 OGL. My game, would be more compatible with MnM or BESM than the normal DnD set of rules.

 

Once again excuse me for being rude.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Actually, the 13.3333 equal level encounters recommended for leveling in D&D (and projectable to d20 in general) equates nicely to 13.333 Experience Points per level. Round off to 15 points per level and you are in business.

 

At that rate characters will "level" consistently every 5 sessions with an average 3 XP per session, and faster or slower if you award higher or lower XP on average (such as for a major success or failure)....

 

I want the game to remind more of the HERO system than a normal d20 game, so my question back to you is:

 

"How often do you level in the HERO system?".

(Gain enough XP to radically change active points in a power.)

 

Remember that I only intend to use levels for base character points and recommended max. "ranks" (or active points). The players won't gain anything by gaining a level. The players will recieve XP in the same fashion as they do in the HERO system. The levels will remind more of the levels found in the beginning of FReD.

 

The DnD XP system is based on CR, or Challange Rating. It's very easy to translate the word challange, into combat. That kind of thinking promotes Hack 'n Slash. It doesn't have to be like that, but it's a common way of using it.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

This is a "hen and egg" kind of thing. First of DnD was first, and second there are tons of systems that uses similar systems. For ex. in Sweden we have a game called Western (as in Wild West). Already in the late 80's it used a system that works almost identical to how the d20 system.

It's not so much "chicken and the egg" as you might think. D&D came before Hero, true. Third Edition D&D did not. I played 1st and 2nd edition D&D, and their abilities and skill (proficiency) system had very little resemblance to 3rd edition's. Many systems have borrowed from Hero, often with direct acknowledgment (e.g. GURPS). It is obvious that TSR (WoC) made a drastic change to their skills for 3rd ed., and it seems to me to match Hero's system very, very closely (right down to the traslation of old theiving and ranger abilities, and the names of several skills: Sleight of Hand, which is used exactly as it is in Hero?). For that matter, most Feats look just like Skill Levels....

 

...I want a generic d20 (based on HERO), that's the entire point of this thread. ...most of what's in MnM can be found in the d20 SRD. The few parts that aren't there is what's bugs me with the system, how you buy powers. In HERO you can do anything, but in MnM you have less control during power creation.

That is exactly why d20 is not generic. Everything which does not come from Powers (and maybe Skill Levels) is represented, in some form, by just about every system out there. The thing about Hero is that you can create anything that doesn't fit into the rest, using the Powers. Also, Characteristics, Skills, Powers, etc., are all integrated together in a fashion which makes them behave quite similarly. By the time you have constructed something in d20 that can do all that, you will pretty much have the Hero system again (so you use a different shaped die: see other people's suggestions about using a d20 instead of 3d6).

[Farkling]

I dabble in DnD...we run it as a pickup game when I can't GM anymore...and I tried D20 MnM....I was unimpressed.

 

Feats are between 10 and 30 Active Points as far as I can see.

"Levelling": as you put it, for radically changing a power is an Active Point question...

 

Games earn from 2-5 Active Points per session when I GM.

At a 60-75 AP limit on my game, (standard superheroes) a radical change is doable with 20-40 AP, 60 AP for a brand new off the rack top of the line power.

 

At the Heroic (DnD) Level, this is amplified. Power can shift radically with 5-20 AP

 

Is that more what you are asking?

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Farkling

Feats are between 10 and 30 Active Points as far as I can see.

"Levelling": as you put it, for radically changing a power is an Active Point question...

Actually, I can tell you (from my progress in mapping Feats to Hero) that most Feats (at least the ones in the d20 SRD) are worth 3-4 points, although a couple (such as Blind-Fighting) climb as high as 15-25. Of course, some could be built in different ways, and are a little subjective, but most of them are definitely 3-point Skill Levels of one form or another.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by Farkling

I dabble in DnD...we run it as a pickup game when I can't GM anymore...and I tried D20 MnM....I was unimpressed.

 

Feats are between 10 and 30 Active Points as far as I can see.

"Levelling": as you put it, for radically changing a power is an Active Point question...

 

Games earn from 2-5 Active Points per session when I GM.

At a 60-75 AP limit on my game, (standard superheroes) a radical change is doable with 20-40 AP, 60 AP for a brand new off the rack top of the line power.

 

At the Heroic (DnD) Level, this is amplified. Power can shift radically with 5-20 AP

 

Is that more what you are asking?

 

This is exactly what want, a feeling of how the game behaves.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

It's not so much "chicken and the egg" as you might think. D&D came before Hero, true. Third Edition D&D did not. I played 1st and 2nd edition D&D, and their abilities and skill (proficiency) system had very little resemblance to 3rd edition's. Many systems have borrowed from Hero, often with direct acknowledgment (e.g. GURPS).

 

I just wan to make this clear. If I were to choose system, the d20 weren't going to be my first (or even second) choice.

 

As a little side, I've played roleplaying games for almost twenty years. Most of the time, I've played Swedish games (for example Kult), so I'm not so good at American roleplaying history. I have however hard to see that the HERO system (or any other system for that matter) grew out of a vaccuum. I do not want to turn this thread into war of systems, then pick another thread or another board.

 

That is exactly why d20 is not generic. Everything which does not come from Powers (and maybe Skill Levels) is represented, in some form, by just about every system out there.

 

I think you are a bit narrow minded. I think it's even stated in text in some of the core d20 books:

 

"The d20 system means trowing a d20 dice, add a bonus and check againsts a difficulty class."

 

The rest of the DnD books is optional. I have a hard time to see how the d20 (with the above definition) should be less flexible than using 3d6 and throw under a target number. Remember that I talk just flexiblity, and not statistics.

 

The thing about Hero is that you can create anything that doesn't fit into the rest, using the Powers. Also, Characteristics, Skills, Powers, etc., are all integrated together in a fashion which makes them behave quite similarly. By the time you have constructed something in d20 that can do all that, you will pretty much have the Hero system again (so you use a different shaped die: see other people's suggestions about using a d20 instead of 3d6).

 

The thing is that I want the Hero system once again, but with a few diffrences (just enough to appeal to the d20 addicts in the group).

 

Let's talk in computer terms:

 

When Apple introduced their Graphical User Interface (GUI) Microsoft's DOS really did look like stone age technology. Things got better for Microsoft when they introduced Windows, even if technology still wasn't as good as Apple's. During the last five years, Windows has begun to close in on Apple.

 

I see the Hero system as MacOS, and the d20 system as MS-DOS. Green Ronin and MnM took the system into the Windows-age. My hope is that this thread will help me bring the d20 system into the next phase.

 

Remember that in the last couple of years (from the late '90s) Microsoft and Apple has more or less become allied forces. My hope is that the same happens here. My hope isn't that this will be the end of the d6 based Hero, but that a d20 based Hero will draw attention to the "mother system".

[Farkling]

Then allow me to comment on "feel" of the system also.

 

My biggest problem with the d20 system is lack of control of character growth, and currently in our pickup game I suffer for it. My character has levels in three or four different classes so he can be a talented generalist and have a decent skill base. Overall...the character is weaker in combat than all but the magician, who is completely un-combat oriented.

 

However skill usage and good stories in DnD (and most d20) is NOT what the system gives experience for...it gives XP's for killing monsters (they have a rating for every critter in their book, don't they?). We tend to play a little differently from our HERO influence, and XP DOES come from other sources.

 

The biggest complaint the two steady HERO players have is that level increases arbitrarily DICTATE how certain skills increase (saves, to hit rolls, hit points to name a few). I much prefer the HERO method of "have 3 XP" ... I can put them anywhere I like, and concentrate on what I want to concentrate on. I can buy another hit point or two, increase a save slightly, buy skill levels, save them so I can buy a better attack power, whatever. There is no arbitrary "level" stricture on how my abilities increase.

 

And as a complementary observations...one of the fellows in my long running game group is a 15 year veteran of DnD in all its incarnations. He has little desire to play superhero games, but is fascinated by the "here's your XP's" and the ability to spend them on whatever, wherever he wants. He liked it in White Wolf, and likes it in the SuperSpies HERO game we are currently playing.

 

I also much prefer the bell curve of 3d6...I hate the flat 5% chance of failure, 5% chance of automatic success of the D20 system. I like the fact that a minor penalty (-3) to a skill roll means far less to an expert than it does to the practiced or the untrained. It also means that a penalty (or DC) can have a smaller range for penalties, as opposed to the typical 10, 15, 20, 30 of the d20 systems.

 

That's my 2 cents.

Your Mileage May Vary

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

I want the game to remind more of the HERO system than a normal d20 game, so my question back to you is:

 

"How often do you level in the HERO system?".

(Gain enough XP to radically change active points in a power.)

 

Remember that I only intend to use levels for base character points and recommended max. "ranks" (or active points). The players won't gain anything by gaining a level. The players will recieve XP in the same fashion as they do in the HERO system. The levels will remind more of the levels found in the beginning of FReD.

 

The DnD XP system is based on CR, or Challange Rating. It's very easy to translate the word challange, into combat. That kind of thinking promotes Hack 'n Slash. It doesn't have to be like that, but it's a common way of using it.

 

What I am referring to is the standard way of awarding XP in D&D 3e. Whether you translate that into hack & slash or not is up to you; the GM determines what constitutes a challenge and what that challenges CR or EL might be (or just awards XP on the fly by the seat of their pants). Regardless, the rate of progression in D&D has a fixed baseline.

 

Equating 1 3e level to 15 character points in the HERO System means that at the suggested average of 3 Exp per session in the HERO System, every 5 sessions will approximate to 1 3e character level. This is the same as if a character leveled every 5 weeks of standard play facing an average of 2 2/3 equal challenges per session, or 1 challenge 2 or more steps above their average party level per session.

 

If you dont agree with that method, then come up with your own method or use somebody elses. To be quite honest I dont really understand what you are trying to do in the first place. It sounds more like you are trying to make DnD 3e point based than anything else, and I dont see where the HERO System fits into that scheme aside from as an example of a point based system for comparison purposes.

[Killer Shrike]

You prefer the HERO System on a d20? Why? A Bell Curve is a much better statistical model IMO. The d20 roll is too volatile, and because of the flatness of the model, a penalty is equally penalizing to an expert or an amateur. Plus a 1 or 20 comes up (when considered together) 10% of the time. That means that 1 out of 10 rolls is at the extreme end of the scale. Thats extremely polarized. With a bell curve you see the extreme ends much less often.

 

YMMV, and it obviously does, but Im really not understanding where you are coming from on this.

 

If you want a point based D&D 3e, somewhere on the net is a point based prestige class builder that supposedly help in the creation of balanced prestige classes for 3e. I suggest you find that and use it as the basis for a point-based model for 3e level progression and award points appropriate to the relative cost of abilities in that system and how fast you as the GM want people to advance.

 

 

Honestly though, I would really suggest looking at the new Fantasy HERO and running that straight up a few sessions to see how you like it. No need to reinvent the wheel 1 spoke at a time. The new Fantasy HERO has a number of thinly veiled D&Disms to ease the pain of D&D 3e addicts being brought into the system, including coverage of many of the more abstruse Feats and Extraordinary abilities (mostly handled as semi-custom Talents).

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Then allow me to comment on "feel" of the system also.

 

My biggest problem with the d20 system is lack of control of character growth, and currently in our pickup game I suffer for it. My character has levels in three or four different classes so he can be a talented generalist and have a decent skill base. Overall...the character is weaker in combat than all but the magician, who is completely un-combat oriented.

 

I fully agree on your observations, but you reviewed the wrong system. I'm fully aware how DnD behaves, that is why I want to change it, due to the fact that my group refuses to change system I haven't got a clue of how Hero feels in play.

 

The biggest complaint the two steady HERO players have is that level increases arbitrarily DICTATE how certain skills increase (saves, to hit rolls, hit points to name a few). I much prefer the HERO method of "have 3 XP" ... I can put them anywhere I like, and concentrate on what I want to concentrate on. I can buy another hit point or two, increase a save slightly, buy skill levels, save them so I can buy a better attack power, whatever. There is no arbitrary "level" stricture on how my abilities increase.

 

Of all the changes need for DnD, to get a more HERO feel, levels and espascially XP are the easiest. There are one version of how to solve it in BESM d20 (and SAS d20), and yet another version in MnM.

 

I also much prefer the bell curve of 3d6...I hate the flat 5% chance of failure, 5% chance of automatic success of the D20 system.

 

The automatic success/failure is an optional rule.

 

The bell curve thing is a matter of taste. Personally I like it, but I don't think the statistic part enhances the roleplaying experience.

 

I like the fact that a minor penalty (-3) to a skill roll means far less to an expert than it does to the practiced or the untrained. It also means that a penalty (or DC) can have a smaller range for penalties, as opposed to the typical 10, 15, 20, 30 of the d20 systems.

 

You don't have to use the typical DCs if you don't like them. There are even recommendations in the rules, that you should use others. I can't remember the exact page, but it's something about favourable situations.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

You prefer the HERO System on a d20? Why?

 

I do not, but my players do...

 

I'm trying to get the best out of the current situation (I want HERO, they want d20).

 

You know "it's better to rule in hell ...".

 

If you want a point based D&D 3e, somewhere on the net is a point based prestige class builder that supposedly help in the creation of balanced prestige classes for 3e. I suggest you find that and use it as the basis for a point-based model for 3e level progression and award points appropriate to the relative cost of abilities in that system and how fast you as the GM want people to advance.

 

Thanks for the advice, but that wasn't exactly what I was looking for.

 

Honestly though, I would really suggest looking at the new Fantasy HERO and running that straight up a few sessions to see how you like it. No need to reinvent the wheel 1 spoke at a time. The new Fantasy HERO has a number of thinly veiled D&Disms to ease the pain of D&D 3e addicts being brought into the system, including coverage of many of the more abstruse Feats and Extraordinary abilities (mostly handled as semi-custom Talents).

 

The problem isn't the fantasy part, which is why I write d20 instead of DnD. The problem is that the group want to use the d20 system.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

I think it's even stated in text in some of the core d20 books:

 

"The d20 system means trowing a d20 dice, add a bonus and check againsts a difficulty class."

 

The rest of the DnD books is optional. I have a hard time to see how the d20 (with the above definition) should be less flexible than using 3d6 and throw under a target number. Remember that I talk just flexiblity, and not statistics.

 

The thing is that I want the Hero system once again, but with a few diffrences (just enough to appeal to the d20 addicts in the group).

Well shoot! In that case, use Hero with a d20 instead of 3d6, and you have the d20 system! It will even look almost exactly the same if you transform "an X- roll" into "+Y on a roll", as I suggested a while ago.

 

You might want to double all bonuses to a roll (including Chracteristics bonuses, skill increases, and Skill Levels), since a bonus means less on a d20 (these values are about the values d20 uses anyway).

 

You could also eliminate the Stun and End Characteristics, and make everything a Killing Attack. Preserve Stunning with something like, "a character is Stunned if the amount of Body (s)he takes after defenses is more than one-third his/her Con," if you choose.

 

Bam! d20, Hero-style.

[RealmForge]

Hero is a "Gamer's Toolkit", so it will enhance any game you play. What I recommend is pick up a copy of Hero 5th (to help you with the design of balanced powers, abilities, etc) and a copy of Silver Age Sentinels D20. SAS, as far as I can tell, is about as close to a complete Hero rip for D20 as one can find.

 

As you continue along in the game play, subtly introduce your players to the Hero system by showing them the benefits and customizability. Eventually, you will be able to make that conversion, provided they are interested in freeform character advancement over levelling madness.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by RealmForge

Hero is a "Gamer's Toolkit", so it will enhance any game you play. What I recommend is pick up a copy of Hero 5th (to help you with the design of balanced powers, abilities, etc) and a copy of Silver Age Sentinels D20. SAS, as far as I can tell, is about as close to a complete Hero rip for D20 as one can find.

 

As you continue along in the game play, subtly introduce your players to the Hero system by showing them the benefits and customizability. Eventually, you will be able to make that conversion, provided they are interested in freeform character advancement over levelling madness.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

I already own 5th ed. and SAS (Tri-Stat version). I've also begun to use the Anime d20 SRD (the free version BESM d20) as a start for "fading" over to a more free form of d20.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Farkling

I also much prefer the bell curve of 3d6...I hate the flat 5% chance of failure, 5% chance of automatic success of the D20 system. I like the fact that a minor penalty (-3) to a skill roll means far less to an expert than it does to the practiced or the untrained.

No kidding. D20 tried to eliminate the 5% failure/success thing by removing it from skill rolls (attacks still use it). I like the 1/216 chance of automatic failure and success that you can use with 3s and 18s in Hero (sometimes I even increase it to 1/54 by including 4s and 17s); much less likely, but still allows for the very rare and exceptional bit of luck.

[Dino]

Woundn't it just be easier to force your players to learn Hero rather than create a bastardized system that will dissatisfy everyone?

 

Better yet, get new players.