adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

[drsid]

I have a couple of questions about characteristics.

 

First, lets say I want to differentiate species in my campaign setting through having lower and upper limits on their characteristics. I assume this is probably not a rare occurrence, so wanted to see how others with experience have handled it. For example, the Gul in my campaign setting are large, densely muscled humanoids with a great deal of strength and body, but limited presence. In addition, they have a history of being slaves for generations and been "bred" by the dominant species to have limited psychological presence and confidence, i.e. reduced Ego.

 

So, as an example, my thought was to simply create a Gul template in which they start with 15 body and 15 strength, and 8 Ego, with the appropriate costs in the template. So, the floor is relatively easy to establish; however, how would I go about establishing a hard ceiling? The maxima rule seems to allow players to still go as high as they can as long as they are willing to spend the points. Do campaign builders simply state an upper limit for each stat or is their a particular game mechanic used?

 

My second question has to do with the removal of stats. I am not necessarily considering doing this, but I wanted to ask in order to further my conceptual understanding. So, lets say that I decide there is no psychic or magic warfare in my game, so I am going to remove mental offensive and defensive stats. In addition, I decide I don't want to use END in my heroic campaign, so I get rid of that as well. And, because I'm lazy and don't really think there is a difference between EGO and WILL, I get rid of EGO.

 

Now, if one gets rid of so many characteristics, would one change the number of character points used for building characters? And, if so, is there a formula for how many character points to reduce the amount by? Alternatively, lets say I want to add additional characteristics, is there a formula for how many build points to add to character creation?

 

I understand the notion of dormant characteristics. Essentially, the players just don't spend points on absent characteristics; however, it would seem that the number of points one gets to build a character with should change based on how many characteristics one has to distribute those points across.

[Daltwisney]

Re: adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

 

Since END is cheap in 6E, I would just ignore it if you don't want to use it (just make it dormant). As for OMCV and DMCV, most characters only significant increase one set of CV values anyways, but removing the mental ones, you are not really giving most players points they would be spending anyways, so I would just make those dormant as well.

 

As for the other stats you might consider lowering the available points IF you are getting rid of a significant number of characteristics.

 

Say for argument's sake, your Heroic game removes 20% of the Characteristics, and you expect players to spend between 30-50% of their points on Characteristics. So, you could lower the total points by 6-10% if you feel the need. I'm not sure what you are referring to as WILL (unless you mean PRE or INT), but your example is then only removing one significant characteristic, and I wouldn't worry much about lowering the points.

 

As for Maxima, while there are rules for exceeding the NCM by doubling, you are certainly free to restrict that in any way you feel necessary. Set a 'hard ceiling' - Gul can buy their STR up to 25 for normal cost, and up to 30 Max for double; or Gul can buy their STR up to 25 for normal cost, up to 30 for double, and up to 35 for double again. Or just say that 25 is the absolute ceiling. It really depends on how you want your campaign to go. Each Characteristic can have a different ceiling, maybe EGO for the Gul starts at 8, and has a maximum of 15, or 20 with doubling. And different Races can have different maximums as well as different starting values.

[Sean Waters]

Re: adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

 

Although it is extremely woolly, I would not worry about 'hard ceilings', I'd just encourage players to build characters that reflect the race they have chosen. Of course that can lead to problems in that someone is bound to want to play the first Gul in history born with a bit of charisma and backbone

 

This is why I often provide pre-generated characters....but let us not go that route just now.

 

There is no 'hard' formula for setting a hard ceiling. What I would do is this: if you reduce the starting characteristic below 10, make '10' the hard ceiling.

 

As for STR, well what do you do for humans? They start at 10 and can go as high as you like. Generally though any more than +10 and it becomes 'extremely heroic'. SO, assuming you limit humans (generally) to +10 on any given characteristic, do the same with 'enhanced' stats for Gul, so 25 is as high as they can go.

 

Of course anyone playing a Gul will WANT 25...

 

...so here's an idea, anathema as it might be to some...use dice to determine characteristics. Gul roll 3d6 for everything but EGO (which is 2d6) and 4d6 for STR and CON. They have to use the result. They then retroactively cost the characteristics.

[torchwolf]

Re: adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

 

There is no 'hard' formula for setting a hard ceiling. What I would do is this: if you reduce the starting characteristic below 10, make '10' the hard ceiling.

 

As for STR, well what do you do for humans? They start at 10 and can go as high as you like. Generally though any more than +10 and it becomes 'extremely heroic'. SO, assuming you limit humans (generally) to +10 on any given characteristic, do the same with 'enhanced' stats for Gul, so 25 is as high as they can go.

 

Of course anyone playing a Gul will WANT 25...

What, an actual player exploiting cost efficiency? Only thing preventing that would be an alert GM in any case. Balancing benefits and drawbacks goes slightly beyond point costs, but as in the example:

EGO has quite a few useful functions, like overcoming Psychological Complications, PRE Attacks, etc.

 

...so here's an idea' date=' anathema as it might be to some...use dice to determine characteristics. Gul roll 3d6 for everything but EGO (which is 2d6) and 4d6 for STR and CON. They have to use the result. They then retroactively cost the characteristics.[/quote']

Aargh! Heresy!

 

I do that occasionally for NPCs, and some players apparently like to start that way but end up adjusting them anyway.

[Lucius]

Re: adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

 

So, as an example, my thought was to simply create a Gul template in which they start with 15 body and 15 strength, and 8 Ego, with the appropriate costs in the template. So, the floor is relatively easy to establish;

 

? What floor?

 

The default "Human Template" starts everyone off with 10 STR, DEX, etc. but that's not the minimum. If I were playing a Gul and you said I start at 15 STR etc I wouldn't assume those were minimums either, unless you said as much.

 

I also think it's very strange if the minimum scores are the same as the "average" scores. I mean, if most Gul have about a 15 STR, wouldn't you expect that some, perhaps quite a few, have less than that?

 

however, how would I go about establishing a hard ceiling?

 

Pick a number and say "this is the hard ceiling."

 

I'd recommend about 10 pts over whatever you pick as the "standard" or "starting" values.

 

The maxima rule seems to allow players to still go as high as they can as long as they are willing to spend the points.

 

Which is only one among many, many sound reasons to completely ignore the "maxima rule." Just use a black marker and delete it. It has no redeeming features that I've noticed in a couple of decades of play.

 

Seriously, I'd just make a set of charts, one for each "race," listing all the characteristics, with each having three numbers - minimum, standard, and maximum. Don't make them part of a "template."

Your "template" or "package deal" or whatever it's called now for a given race or species or tribe or whatever should list Skills and Talents and Powers and Complications.

And say that if you want to be a Gul, or whatever, your STR must fall within a range from 10 to 25 (or wherever you set it) and the same for the other traits.

Make it clear that you do take a Gul with STR 10, you're a weakling Gul, as noticably puny as a Human with a STR of 5.

 

Do campaign builders simply state an upper limit for each stat or is their a particular game mechanic used?

 

If you want a limit, you pretty much have to state it. I think there's a "rule of thumb" some people use of setting a maximum at about 10 to 20 character points over the standard.

But as long as you're clear where the limits are, no one can tell you you're "wrong."

 

My second question has to do with the removal of stats. I am not necessarily considering doing this, but I wanted to ask in order to further my conceptual understanding. So, lets say that I decide there is no psychic or magic warfare in my game, so I am going to remove mental offensive and defensive stats. In addition, I decide I don't want to use END in my heroic campaign, so I get rid of that as well. And, because I'm lazy and don't really think there is a difference between EGO and WILL, I get rid of EGO.

 

I have no idea what you mean by WILL.

 

Now, if one gets rid of so many characteristics, would one change the number of character points used for building characters? And, if so, is there a formula for how many character points to reduce the amount by? Alternatively, lets say I want to add additional characteristics, is there a formula for how many build points to add to character creation?

 

There is no formula I'm aware of for deciding such things. Unless you're cutting a LOT of characteristics I wouldn't bother.

 

I understand the notion of dormant characteristics. Essentially, the players just don't spend points on absent characteristics; however, it would seem that the number of points one gets to build a character with should change based on how many characteristics one has to distribute those points across.

 

Given how many other things there are to spend points on, and the wide variance in how much players spend on characteristics, I wouldn't think so. If the ONLY thing the points were spent on were characteristics, maybe so.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I got a package deal - buy one palindromedary, get another for free

[dmjalund]

Re: adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

 

I would buy some - or all - racial attributes as powers. This would give the floor as (CHAR - 10) and this would effectively raise the Characteristic Maximum by the new level (to CHAR + 10). In 6E you no longer have to worry about CHAR as Power affecting figured Attributes

[Matt Holck]

Re: adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

 

Haymaker tends to be the Hard Limit of damage

so base statt +20

 

 

...so here's an idea, anathema as it might be to some...use dice to determine characteristics. Gul roll 3d6 for everything but EGO (which is 2d6) and 4d6 for STR and CON. They have to use the result. They then retroactively cost the characteristics.

 

I'd rather roll 3d6 and then choose my race

[drsid]

Re: adding floor and ceiling to characteristics & removing characteristics

 

Lots of ideas to think about! Thanks for the detailed and informative responses.