10 pt CSL

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

"equally valid" isn't always about numbers - sometimes the Multipower is the more appropriate approach.

 

In this case, I think it's the less appropriate of two equally valid approaches. There's no need to take everything to such extremes, it obfuscates the point. And honestly looks silly.

 

No matter how I phrase it, or rephrase it, I'm of the solid belief that a Multipower is not appropriate when comparing base mechanical costs of things - like CSLs - as it then precludes the new mechanic (as a Multipower) from being placed inside a Framework. Comparing the base cost of basic aspects should be on a more generic basis is all.

 

Bolded for emphasis. Aren't skills - including skill levels - listed as special powers, which therefore require GM permission to be placed in a framework? With GM permission, I can place a framework in a framework anyway. The GM can bend or break the rules any way he sees fit.

 

The restruction against placing skill levels in a framework could even be seen as an indication it is more appropriate to view skill levels as already being a framework.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Sure.

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Here's my first, last, and only mathematical take on CSLs vs CV Purchase.

 

Compound Power:

+1 OCV, Lockout = 4pts

+1 DCV, Lockout = 4pts

+1/2 DC, Lockout = 2pts

Total Power Cost = 10pts.

 

You pay for what you get. You're getting the ability to add OCV, DCV or Damage - one at a time. The value of anything in a campaign is going to be campaign specific. If a campaign never uses Interaction Skills than even the meager 3 points for Charm is over priced. If a campaign is Psionic Wars and all abilities or Psionic Based with EGO determining combat order then DEX 20 is likely over priced, especially at 2:1.

 

Let's bring another Meta-Rule into the System; "Given two equally valid builds, you must use the most expensive one" (not the exact phrasing, but the general idea.

Assuming a Multipower (which I still say is a horrible comparison as it is a system inherently designed to give a cost break thus devaluing the Pay For What You Get aspect IMO, and should be an award for tight concept and not a benchmark) of +1OCV,+1DCV,+1/2DC (8pts) is also valid compared to the Lockout Build; the Meta-Rule tells us the 10pts is what should be purchased.

 

Of course "equally valid" is subjective - but in this case the Math Does Not Lie; 1 DC = 5pts e.g. 1/2DC=2.5 Points. Lockout is in fact -1/4. Adding the 3 elements together is a 10 point Compound Power construct.

 

I see it as a very simple point - still leaving the 'actual worth' of any element up to the game. As you pointed out - there's a great deal of versatality in Combat CSLs that you can shift around. Whether you take advantage of those options or not will ultimately determine the value of CSLs at any point cost in your game.

 

I guess I can see your point, Though I'd cost a DC at 4 still.....+1DC (5 pts) Must lower total CV by two (2 levels equivilant) thats at least a -1/4 , maybe more (though not much more....)

 

So "stats" give a total cost of 15 that all always work, vs a cost of 20 with an additional benefit that both CV can go to O or D, but a limit that adding the DC costs the ability to add anything to CV at all. That looks at first blush that the advantage of placing the CV where you want tends to ballence the disadvantage of "losing CV when you add damage. That looks to make Levels a very poor buy in comparison to Stats at 10 per.....at 8 per you only pay 1 pt more. And that might be too little, but only play will finally determine the ballence.

 

Stats: +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +1 "DC" 15 points all work all the time

Levels +2 "CV" can be assigned as needed, Or +1 DC.....also does not work all the time (you can't walk around with levels assigned, Stats however are "always on" as it were...)

 

It looks like the disadvantages of levels become less as more are used because this tends to increase the advantage of assignability, but at low numbers, they are a poor choice.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

here's one disconnect in the whole discussion:

 

you call it "losing CV" and I call it "paying for the option to add more damage"

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Agreed. You're not "losing DCV" when you decide to allocate your CSL to OCV. Likewise you're not "losing CV" when you allocate them to damage. Being able to allocate them is part of what you are paying for and is a benifit. Saying you're losing something because you are given more options is...well, just odd.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

here's one disconnect in the whole discussion:

 

you call it "losing CV" and I call it "paying for the option to add more damage"

 

The poster notes, however, that for 15 points you can have +1 OCV, +1 DCV and spend an extra 5 points on your main attack to get +1 DC plus any ancillary benefits that attack power may bring (for example, the ability to Spread or the extra lift capacity of STR). For 20 points, you can choose between +2 OCV, +1 OCV and +1 DCV, +2 DCV or +1 DC. You cannot have all three, so you can't have as much as the 15 points could have bought you.

 

Let's make the points comparable. For 20 points, you can have +1 OCV, +2 DCV and spend an extra 5 points on your main attack to get +1 DC plus any ancillary benefits that attack power may bring. Let's assume your attack can be spread. You can, at any time, have +2 OCV, +2 DCV and no bonus to damage, or you can have +1 OCV, +2 DCV and +1 DC. With the two skill levels, you can have:

 

- +2 OCV (but no bonus to DCV - inferior to the alternative purchase)

- +2 DCV (but no bonus to OCV or damage - inferior to the alternative purchase)

- +1 DC (but no bonus to OCV or DCV - inferior to the alternative purchase)

- +1 OCV and +1 DCV (less bonuses than, and so inferior to, the alternative purchase)

 

The only costing advantage the skill levels possess is their ability to enhane different attacks, so our hypothetical character must add DC's to a variety of different attacks. But such a construct would clearly be built more effectively as amultipower, reducing the incremental cost of each extra attack. For 20 points, he could have:

 

10 - 10 point MP pool

2 - +2 OCV variable slot

2 - +2 DCV variable slot

1 - +1 DC with attack #1, 0 END, fixed slot

1 - +1 DC with attack #2, 0 END, fixed slot

1 - +1 DC with attack #3, 0 END, fixed slot

1 - +1 DC with attack #4, 0 END, fixed slot

1 - +1 DC with attack #5, 0 END, fixed slot

1 - +1 DC with attack #6, 0 END, fixed slot

 

That's 6 different attacks, a pretty versatile character, and he still only breaks even. He could limit the DC slots to remove ancillary benefits of those attacks, but it wuld only impact the cost a bit, and only at higher levels.

 

The question is not whether the flexibility to allocate is, or is not, a benefit. It is. The question is whether that benefit is fairly costed as compared against other alternatives.

 

For 16 points, I can have 2 levels in all HTH combat. I can buy +1d6 HTH attack, 0 END for 6 points, and buy a Multipower of +2 OCV and +2 DCV, both variable slots, both usable only if he uses an HTH combat maneuver, for 12 points (assuming only a -1/4 limitation), a total of 18 points. Now I get the CV benefits of the levels and the DC bonus, both at the same time, for only 2 more points. Which is more valuable?

 

Let's look at it another way. The ability to reassign the levels between OCV, DCV and damage is the major selling point you use for skill levels. With that in mind, what should the limitation be for levels that cannot increase damage classes? If it is a significant benefit to be able to reallocate those levels to DC's,. it must be a substantial limitation to lose that benefit, right?

[JamesG]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

10 pts can buy a CSL that gives +1 OCV or +1 DCV or +1 damage class, one at a time

...or...

10 pts can buy you any two of the above, always on simultaneously.

 

Is there anything I'm missing here? It seems like the skill level is overpriced.

 

You are not missing anything; All-Combat CSLs are overpriced in 6e. Hugh very eloquently demonstrates this in the post right above mine.

 

I was really hoping 6e would finally make buying the high level CSLs worth it, from a point efficiency standpoint, when they decoupled CV from DEX. If they had not changed the cost of CSLs from 5e I think they would have gotten it right. (8 points would still maybe be a little too high for All-Combat, but it would be close enough not to quibble about).

 

But when they upped the price of CSLs in 6e, they assured that anything higher than the 3 point CSLs are inefficient purchases when compared to the raw stats. Just like in 5e, except in 5e the raw stat was DEX while in 6e it is OCV/DCV.

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

here's one disconnect in the whole discussion:

 

you call it "losing CV" and I call it "paying for the option to add more damage"

 

Well I don't think the choice of words really changes what it is, but as shown, you can buy +1 to each CV (O or D) And a DC for less than having 2 levels with all combat ( 5 points is an measurable diff...) So why must you "pay" to add DC? And how is paying differant from "costing"? Also as noted Levels are nonpersistant, stats etc are normally persistant.....

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

here's one disconnect in the whole discussion:

 

you call it "losing CV" and I call it "paying for the option to add more damage"

Well I don't think choice of words actually changes what it is......How exactly is "paying" differant fron "costing"?

 

As shown theres a 5 point extra cost, and 5 points is a major chunk of points. Where is the benefit, and does it justify the extra cost? Also as noted levels are nonpersistant, and stats are.( as far as I know anyway)

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Sorry I have no idea why this posted twice...

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

You are not missing anything; All-Combat CSLs are overpriced in 6e. Hugh very eloquently demonstrates this in the post right above mine.

 

I was really hoping 6e would finally make buying the high level CSLs worth it, from a point efficiency standpoint, when they decoupled CV from DEX. If they had not changed the cost of CSLs from 5e I think they would have gotten it right. (8 points would still maybe be a little too high for All-Combat, but it would be close enough not to quibble about).

 

But when they upped the price of CSLs in 6e, they assured that anything higher than the 3 point CSLs are inefficient purchases when compared to the raw stats. Just like in 5e, except in 5e the raw stat was DEX while in 6e it is OCV/DCV.

 

Thanx, I guess thats what I've been trying to say....

[JamesG]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

6E2 states a Damage Class costs 5 pts.

 

Combat Skill Level provides:

+1 OCV (5pts)

+1 DCV (5 pts)

1/2 DC (2.5 pts)

 

12.5 Points worth of capability, that we can move from one to the other as needed/desired. Lockout is -1/4

 

+1 OCV Lockout (4pts)

+1 DCV Lockout (4pts)

+1/2 DC Lockout (2pts)

=10 points

 

On the money.

 

Something bothered me about this analysis when I read it yesterday, but it took some thought and research overnight to really put it together. There are actually two issues I have with it.

 

First, I’m not sure Lockout is the correct Limitation here. If I buy a “power” that grants +1 OCV and +1 DCV but limit it so that only one of the two can be used at a time, I’ve just limited it to half of its unlimited usefulness. Limited Power: Power loses about half of its effectiveness is a -1 limitation. If we add to the “power” +DC but keep the “only one of OCV, DCV, or DC at a time” Limitation, the power has now lost two-thirds of its unlimited usefulness. Limited Power: Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness is a -1 1/2 limitation.

 

But for the sake of argument let’s assume Lockout is indeed the right Limitation to use. This brings me to my second issue; the value of Lockout is -1/2, not -1/4. When you plug the correct value of Lockout into the above math, the result is:

 

+1 OCV Lockout (3pts)

+1 DCV Lockout (3pts)

+1/2 DC Lockout (2pts)

=8 points

 

Once the correct value of Lockout is applied to your own analysis it shows the old 5e cost for all-combat CSLs on the money and the 6e cost is indeed inflated.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Fair enough.

 

We should also add Unified Power to both mine all the multipowers. Further showing that even 8 pts is too high.

 

Obviously there's a flaw somewhere that shows a properly hobbled CSL is less costly than an idividual componant.