10 pt CSL

[Alcamtar]

10 pts can buy a CSL that gives +1 OCV or +1 DCV or +1 damage class, one at a time

...or...

10 pts can buy you any two of the above, always on simultaneously.

 

Is there anything I'm missing here? It seems like the skill level is overpriced

 

a 5 AP multipower with 3 ultra slots costs only 8 pts

a 5 AP semi-cosmic VPP costs 10 pts, but you can use it for much more than just OCV/DCV/STR

[Rapier]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Oh, it rears it's ugly head once again. Do a Forum Title Search on CSL Overpriced.

[Alcamtar]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Ah thanks, I tought it must have come up before.

[Rapier]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Maybe it was under CSL. Try that. It was in 2010 and not too long ago.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

This is actually at least the 3rd thread (possibly the 4th or 5th) to bring this up...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I costed it out as if it were a Multipower. +2 OCV, +2 DCV, and Aid, 1 1/2d6 (Standard Effect) for +5 points to one attack came to a grand total of 19 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I costed it out as if it were a Multipower. +2 OCV' date=' +2 DCV, and Aid, 1 1/2d6 (Standard Effect) for +5 points to one attack came to a grand total of 19 points.[/quote']

 

Sounds great. Except the Aid takes an attack action and fades over time. But then, I can use the Aid to add 1 DC, then use it again to add a second. Having added two DC's, I can now switch my MP to +2 OCV and attack with my enhanced DC's, since the Aid points remain after I switch the MP. Of course, since that Aid costs more than 10 points, I'll probably spend a little extra on the OCV and DCV slots and have more than +2 OCV/DCV available. Or I can leave those variable slots unchanged and have +2 OCV and +1 DCV.

 

IOW, I don't think that's as comparable as you think it is, although it would be a reasonable substitute for CSL's.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

6E2 states a Damage Class costs 5 pts.

 

Combat Skill Level provides:

+1 OCV (5pts)

+1 DCV (5 pts)

1/2 DC (2.5 pts)

 

12.5 Points worth of capability, that we can move from one to the other as needed/desired. Lockout is -1/4

 

+1 OCV Lockout (4pts)

+1 DCV Lockout (4pts)

+1/2 DC Lockout (2pts)

=10 points

 

On the money.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

6E2 states a Damage Class costs 5 pts.

 

Combat Skill Level provides:

+1 OCV (5pts)

+1 DCV (5 pts)

1/2 DC (2.5 pts)

 

12.5 Points worth of capability, that we can move from one to the other as needed/desired. Lockout is -1/4

 

+1 OCV Lockout (4pts)

+1 DCV Lockout (4pts)

+1/2 DC Lockout (2pts)

=10 points

 

On the money.

 

if a DC is worth 5, then I could buy:

 

MP 10 point pool - 10 points

var slot +2 OCV - 2 points

var slot +2 DCV - 2 points

var slot - +2 DC's - 2 points

 

Total 16 points/2 = 8, and I can get my DC's at the cost of 1 "level" each, instead of 2. Even if we bump that DC cost to 10 per (they cost no END and apply to any attack), the MP approach is still 20% cheaper.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I don't personally believe that MultiPowers are in any way useful in gauging rules costs. I think they're a reward for concept and should not be used as a comparison model.

 

Also - it's very clear in the book that a Damage Class is worth 5 pts. It's one of the core assumptions the system is currently built on under the "meta rules."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I don't personally believe that MultiPowers are in any way useful in gauging rules costs. I think they're a reward for concept and should not be used as a comparison model.

 

They're a part of the rules, and an alternative means of purchasing powers. If the MP is cheaper than the other build, the MP will tend to get used and the other build will not.

 

Also - it's very clear in the book that a Damage Class is worth 5 pts. It's one of the core assumptions the system is currently built on under the "meta rules."

 

On the one hand, we do measure DC's by dividing AP by 5. However, which DC costs 5 points in and of itself? 1d6 Blast is Ranged, and can be Spread, and costs 5 points. Strip out the Range and the Spreading, and it would cost less than 5 points. It would still have 5 AP, but its actual cost would be less than 5. 1d6 from STR comes with Lift, Grab, etc. Strip these out to get HTH damage only, and it costs less than 5 points. HKA converts your STR into a killing attack. HTH attach can convert your STR into an advantaged attack. Most attack powers can either be spread or they come with some other benefit over and above an added DC.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

The benefit CSL Damage Classes get is they apply to any and all Attacks, regardless of type (ranged, hand-to-hand, adjustment powers, killing, etc). That's a wide, very wide, range.

[stevec]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Looking at this thread is a good reminder of why multipowers shouldn't be created with skills in them without an extremely good reason: it messes with all of the point costs. Previous editions have spelled this out explicitly, but if you read the multipower section in 6E you'll see that the framework is clearly intended to be for powers only (and not even all powers: senses, special powers, talents are called out as not being appropriate).

 

If it helps, I've always thought of an overall combat/skill level as being a sort of multipower for skills...especially the 12 point levels.

[JmOz]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I think the place where this really shines is in campeigns that use NCM rules.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

The benefit CSL Damage Classes get is they apply to any and all Attacks' date=' regardless of type (ranged, hand-to-hand, adjustment powers, killing, etc). That's a wide, very wide, range.[/quote']

 

...and the reason I modeled it with Aid. Though maybe technically I should have used Boost.

 

ETA: At any rate, "thing that I built to grant either +1 DC or some combination of +2 OCV or DCV" cost 19 points.

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I think the price of the DC is irrelevant. The way CSLs work, a DC is defined as double the cost of +1 OCV or DCV, since you can trade unlimited numbers at that ratio. If we don't assume that's the correct cost, then the whole CSL system is flawed to begin with. Therefore:

 

10 Multipower, 10 pt reserve

1u +2 OCV

1u +2 DCV

1u +1 DC

 

However, the Multipower pricing isn't the only basis for saying that 10-pt CSLs are overpriced. Consider: 10pt CSL vs 5pt CSL + 1 DCV

For most characters, the 5pt CSL actually applies to all their attacks, and quite possibly their defense as well (if they have Martial Arts with defensive moves). So with the second option, they have consistent DCV (and higher DCV if they go full defense), and the same level of offense.

[dmjalund]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

actually it would be

10 Multipower, 10 pt reserve

2 +2 OCV

2 +2 DCV

1u +1 DC

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Technically true, but I'm not sure anyone would actually pay for the marginal utility if they were buying it that way.

 

This brings up somewhat of an odd point - it seems like it's possible to get the "flexible slot" benefits at reduced cost just by buying multiple Multipowers. For example:

 

40 Mech-Suit Power Generator - 40p Multipower

8f Boost Flight - +40m Flight

8f Boost Forcefield - Resistant Defense (13 PD/13 ED)

8f Boost Servos - +40 STR

Total: 64 points

 

vs

 

10 Mech-Suit Power Module - 10p Multipower

1u Boost Flight - +10m Flight

1u Boost Forcefield - Resistant Defense (3 PD/3 ED)

1u Boost Servos - +10 STR

39 (Three more Power Modules)

Total: 52 points

 

Now it's not a huge difference in points, but it's still a definite discount, and gives you a bit more versatility in slot switching (allowing you to maintain half your reserve on defense between turns but all on offense during your turn, for instance); and that's assuming you can't just get the other three Power Modules at the "Extra Equipment" rate of 10 points total, which seems like cheese to me, but appears to be supported by some official examples.

[The Main Man]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I think the place where this really shines is in campeigns that use NCM rules.

 

That and any campaign with Adjustment Powers (particularly Drain).

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Unless you sold back your base OCV/DCV, losing those three points will still mess you up.

And would it really make sense to have NCM apply to OCV/DCV but not to CSLs, given that they could easily have the exact same SFX?

 

The only time I could see using the 10-pt CSLs is in a Heroic campaign with a wide variety of weapons and attack types expected. For instance, a space-opera Star Hero game where you may end up using blasters, ship-to-ship weapons, swords, and improvised clubs, and defend from both physical and psionic attacks. However, in that case, why not spend the extra couple of points and get a vastly more useful Overall Level?

 

Which, come to think of it, is probably the best argument for 10pt levels being overpriced - the fact that they're not even -1/4 cheaper than Overall levels.

[Vondy]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

However' date=' in that case, why not spend the extra couple of points and get a vastly more useful Overall Level?[/quote']

 

Concept?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I think the place where this really shines is in campeigns that use NCM rules.

 

In 5e and prior editions, I considered that the reason levels were overpriced. If they weren't overpriced without the NCM rules, they would become a huge bargain in games using NCM.

 

However, in 6e, NCM is no longer part of the core rules. It is an optional rule. Given this, it would seem reasonable for the pricing of skill levels to reflect the default costs of other abilities, particularly other abilities which can achieve the same game effects. The optional NCM rule could then note "in such games, it might also be reasonable to increase the price of skill levels, either in general or over an NCM threshhold".

 

In my view, the default costs should be based on the default rules, not the possible use of an optional rule.

 

I think the price of the DC is irrelevant. The way CSLs work' date=' a DC is defined as double the cost of +1 OCV or DCV, since you can trade unlimited numbers at that ratio. If we [i']don't[/i] assume that's the correct cost, then the whole CSL system is flawed to begin with. Therefore:

 

10 Multipower, 10 pt reserve

1u +2 OCV

1u +2 DCV

1u +1 DC

 

As others have noted, the cost should be variable slots throughout (even the DC, as the intent is a cost that allows multiple levels to be priced). Your example of the multiple multipower is an interesting one, but one I think would typically be rejected in most games.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

However' date=' in that case, why not spend the extra couple of points and get a vastly more useful Overall Level?[/quote']

 

Concept?

 

Vondy, my question to this type of exchange is always "why should building to concept cost more" or, to rephrase, "why should some concepts be more point-efficient than others"? I agree that characters should be built to concept, but my expectation is that the system should not discourage this by making certain concepts inefficient.

 

In my view, the current pricing of skill levels makes skill levels an inefficient choice compared to buying the characteristics up. I also think DEX is a poor buy - going first and getting better DEX skills is not worth twice as much as better interaction skills, better PRE attacks and better defense against PRE attacks, nor than better knowledge skills and better perception rolls.

 

I think the same issue exists for combat skill levels, but that the price discrepancy has been markedly reduced over prior editions. In 5e, I could buy +6 DEX for 18 points, recoup 6 from Speed (net cost of 12) and get +2 OCV and +2 DCV, as well as better DEX rolls. Or, for 16 points, I could buy 2 levels with all combat, and have +2 OCV, or +2 DCV, or +1 DC. Trading off DEX rolls, and 2 CV at all times ( 4 when I want the extra DC) was certainly not worth a 6 point (50%) premium.

 

With the components of DEX repriced in 6e, the price of CSL's became much more appropriate, but the increased price seems excessive. Lower priced, more specialized levels, which have historically been more popular,seem not to suffer from the same overpricing. With the change to 6e, are you seeing a lot of characters envisioned as widely combat-skilled buying more high cost levels, or do you see characters simply buying more OCV and DCV (just like they bought DEX in prior editions)?

[Vondy]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Vondy' date=' my question to this type of exchange is always "why should building to concept cost more" or, to rephrase, "why should some concepts be more point-efficient than others"? I agree that characters should be built to concept, but my expectation is that the system should not discourage this by making certain concepts inefficient.[/quote']

 

I agree skill levels are mispriced - but that's tangential to the essential point my question profers.

 

Why wouldn't someone just buy overall levels?

 

Maybe the character isn't omnicompetent.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I agree skill levels are mispriced - but that's tangential to the essential point my question profers.

 

Why wouldn't someone just buy overall levels?

 

Maybe the character isn't omnicompetent.

 

If the price of being omnicompetent is cheap, then why wouldn't the concept get adjusted to omnicompetence? He soaks up all skills, not just combat skills.

 

The player should be rewarded, or at least not penalized, for building to concept. If Combat Wombat spends 60 points on 6 skill levels with All Combat, I think he should be considerably better in combat than Mr. OmniCompetent. But the same points spent on Overall levels buys 5, so Mr. Omnicomptent is vastly superior to Combat Wombat outside combat, and only marginally less capable in combat. That makes sense to me only if the game is focused extensively on combat, such that noncombat abilities are ancillary, of limited utility.

 

How many bonuses to all noncombat skills can Mr. Skillful get for the same 60 points? Will he clearly outshine Mr. Omnicompetent outside combat, or just be a tiny bit better?

 

Of course, this falls victim to the same pricing issue. If I can buy +1 level with all skills for 10 points, and +1 level with all combat for 10 points, I could buy a Multipower of the two for 12 points (fixed slots) or 14 points (variable slots).