10 pt CSL

[Lucius]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

And would it really make sense to have NCM apply

 

No. No, it really never makes sense to have NCM apply to anything.

 

Just ask the Florist Friars, or the Normal Human

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Ask a palindromedary

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

No. No, it really never makes sense to have NCM apply to anything.

 

Just ask the Florist Friars, or the Normal Human

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Ask a palindromedary

 

Or the mad Munchkin with the idiot GM!

[Vondy]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

If the price of being omnicompetent is cheap' date=' then why wouldn't the concept get adjusted to omnicompetence?[/quote']

 

Again - tangential to my point. And not proactive. If the costs are wrong, change them. If the system is flawed, fix it.

 

If you are satisfied with bean counting being the driving factor in character conceptualization, great.

 

If you aren't satisfied with that approach, we're wasting time on a rhetorical sideshow.

[Rapier]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

rhetorical sideshow.

 

Who told you my address?

 

Are you stalking me?

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I have to say that the costs for combat levels seem too high to me, at least at first blush.....10 pts: Can add +1 to OCV, OR Dcv. Vs Buy +1 with Each (5 pts each) the only benefit the CSL offers is the rarely utilized add a 1/2 DC (effectively limited to 2 CSL groups) 2 pts just feels too large a cost for that.....

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Why wouldn't someone just buy overall levels?

 

Maybe the character isn't omnicompetent.

But really, how many concepts involve proficiency in all types of combat, but not in any related skills? Lifelong Soldier? That could easily include Perception, wilderness survival, repair skills, teamwork, etc. God of War? Could cover tactics, commanding troops, morale-raising oratory, intimidation, knowledge of historical battles, and so forth. 'Concept' is not a valid reason for poor pricing anyway. I mean, we could price Blast at 20 points/level, and you'd still be able to take it for concept reasons, but that wouldn't make it the right price.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I have to say that the costs for combat levels seem too high to me' date=' at least at first blush.....10 pts: Can add +1 to OCV, OR Dcv. Vs Buy +1 with Each (5 pts each) the only benefit the CSL offers is the rarely utilized add a 1/2 DC (effectively limited to 2 CSL groups) 2 pts just feels too large a cost for that.....[/quote']

 

We use the DCs from CSLs all the time. And I expect to use them more and more often now that the silly "double damage cap" is gone from the system.

[Vondy]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

But really' date=' how many concepts involve proficiency in [i']all[/i] types of combat, but not in any related skills? Lifelong Soldier? That could easily include Perception, wilderness survival, repair skills, teamwork, etc. God of War? Could cover tactics, commanding troops, morale-raising oratory, intimidation, knowledge of historical battles, and so forth. 'Concept' is not a valid reason for poor pricing anyway. I mean, we could price Blast at 20 points/level, and you'd still be able to take it for concept reasons, but that wouldn't make it the right price.

 

You are tilting at winmills. Your argument is predicated on an illicit major premise. You've constructed an argument using narrow set of assumptions that are only true for some concepts - its a formal syllogistic fallacy. Not all concepts justify omnicompetence. I'm sure herodom assembled could rattle off several off that disprove your position in their sleep. If the costs are wrong don't force a square character into a round hole to satisfy bean counter urges - fix the costs.

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

If the costs are wrong don't force a square character into a round hole to satisfy bean counter urges - fix the costs.

... What? That's what I've been saying - fix the costs.

 

And maybe I was misreading your posts, but you seemed to be claiming that the high price of All-Combat Levels compared to Overall Levels was ok because people would still pick the All-Combat Levels for concept. My point was that:

1) Many concepts, in fact most concepts that would use All-Combat Levels could easily use (possibly limited) Overall Levels instead.

2) Overpriced things are still overpriced whether people pick them for concept or not.

[Beast]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

didn't the divorcing of figured characteristics get started this way, but in reverse

the stat was cheaper to buy than buying the the componets

now we have come full circle where it is cheaper to buy the levels and DCs as an MP than just buying the levels ;p

[Vondy]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

... What? That's what I've been saying - fix the costs.

 

And maybe I was misreading your posts, but you seemed to be claiming that the high price of All-Combat Levels compared to Overall Levels was ok because people would still pick the All-Combat Levels for concept.

 

I've been a broken record. My point: don't make character concept decisions based on broken costs - fix the costs.

 

1) Many concepts' date=' in fact [i']most[/i] concepts that would use All-Combat Levels could easily use (possibly limited) Overall Levels instead.

 

You should have stuck to many. There is no statistical breakdown either way. The assertion "most" is anecdotal/subjective/debatable. Many concepts swing the other way. Not all characters should have them. Many should not. I don't buy into "since its more efficient just do it anyways." I buy into characters built to concept in a correctly costed system.

 

Can you give me an example of a limited overall level?

 

2) Overpriced things are still overpriced whether people pick them for concept or not.

 

No argument. But instead of basing character design on those prices - fix them.

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

I think we may have been talking past each-other. My point was simply that in comparison to Overall levels, All-Combat levels are overpriced. Which, if either, you use for a given character is irrelevant.

 

The "using one instead of the other" thing was just to point out that they aren't so conceptually different that comparing them is impossible. And for that matter "All-Combat level" is not, in itself, a concept, it's a game element. While it can certainly support many concepts, its not the only way to do so.

[GoldenAge]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

What if I only have 5 EXP to spend and I need help NOW!

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

5-point levels are actually a pretty good deal; for many characters, they cover everything. Including DCV, if you have defensive martial arts.

Or you could get unreliable CSLs (RAR 11-). Not sure how effective those would be, but they might be a good fit for Drunken Boxing.

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Well thats good to hear...but a DC is worth about 4 pts, and two Levels pays full price for that (you have to add DC's as full amounts , so you use two levels for each) So +1 OCV, +1 DCV and +1 DC....14 points, and it's there all the time vs +2 to OCV, or DCV, or 1 each, Or +1 DC for twenty? that seems too high....For 19 I can +2 One CV, +1 the other, and still add a DC....or for 18 I can +1 each CV and add Two DC, yet save two points in cost.

 

I'm figuring a DC's cost as 4, because a "DC" of MA excelence is 4 points, and a DC of HA is 4 points. So I figure 4 points is about the "value" of a DC.

 

It really does look like 8 points each is more in line with what you are getting, maybe 9 at most.

 

I supose one big change in value added is (I have not really read the book yet, I just heard) that DC's are not halved for Killing attacks. That if true is a big step up in damage adding...

 

Opps meant to quote GA......

[The Main Man]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

+1 DC for what though?

 

CSL's can add +1 DC to anything that they apply to, whereas the usual +1 DC for 4 CP only applies to Martial Maneuvers, which also means that they are limited to Martial Maneuvers rules.

[Beast]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

With CSLs you need 2 of them to add 1 DC=20 points to get the full effect

if you only want a +1 you might as well go the MP route for 8 pts and maybe a +1 end cost

depending on whether it is a ranged or hand attack if you need both then 9pts

 

+1 DC for what though?

 

CSL's can add +1 DC to anything that they apply to, whereas the usual +1 DC for 4 CP only applies to Martial Maneuvers, which also means that they are limited to Martial Maneuvers rules.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Well thats good to hear...but a DC is worth about 4 pts, and two Levels pays full price for that (you have to add DC's as full amounts , so you use two levels for each) So +1 OCV, +1 DCV and +1 DC....14 points, and it's there all the time vs +2 to OCV, or DCV, or 1 each, Or +1 DC for twenty? that seems too high....For 19 I can +2 One CV, +1 the other, and still add a DC....or for 18 I can +1 each CV and add Two DC, yet save two points in cost.

 

I'm figuring a DC's cost as 4, because a "DC" of MA excelence is 4 points, and a DC of HA is 4 points. So I figure 4 points is about the "value" of a DC.

 

It really does look like 8 points each is more in line with what you are getting, maybe 9 at most.

 

I supose one big change in value added is (I have not really read the book yet, I just heard) that DC's are not halved for Killing attacks. That if true is a big step up in damage adding...

 

Opps meant to quote GA......

 

6E2 page 297 - 1 Damage Class = 5 Active Points.

 

notice how all the DCs you mention are specific?

1 Damage Class (5pts); Martial Maneuvers (-1/4) = 4pts

Hand Attack specifically states it is +5 STR; Only Hand-To-Hand Damage (-1/4) = 4 pts.

 

The book is VERY explicit. Unequivocally clear. Beyond any doubt that 5pts/DC is the benchmark Steve used.

 

Combat Skill Levels Damage Classes apply to Any and All Attacks (ranged, hand to hand, flashes, adjustment powers like Drain) - ALL Of them. not a subset like Hand Attack, or Martial Damage Classes.

 

And no - DCs in Martial Maneuvers are no longer halved for Killing Attacks. A Damage Class is a Damage Class is a Damage Class across the board.

[pinecone]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

6E2 page 297 - 1 Damage Class = 5 Active Points.

 

notice how all the DCs you mention are specific?

1 Damage Class (5pts); Martial Maneuvers (-1/4) = 4pts

Hand Attack specifically states it is +5 STR; Only Hand-To-Hand Damage (-1/4) = 4 pts.

 

The book is VERY explicit. Unequivocally clear. Beyond any doubt that 5pts/DC is the benchmark Steve used.

 

Combat Skill Levels Damage Classes apply to Any and All Attacks (ranged, hand to hand, flashes, adjustment powers like Drain) - ALL Of them. not a subset like Hand Attack, or Martial Damage Classes.

 

And no - DCs in Martial Maneuvers are no longer halved for Killing Attacks. A Damage Class is a Damage Class is a Damage Class across the board.

 

So even if a DC is valued at 5...the costs do not look good, just add one point to each example given. And assigning levels for DC requires that you forgoe the other benefits available, and is only available in 2 for 1 doses.

 

Still looks like CV's are overpriced as is, ultimately play examples will confirm or disprove. But in 5Th and prior 8 point combat levels were overpriced in comparison to Stat purchase. Now stats are more "expensive" yet increasing CV price seems to continue to make them a poor purchase.

 

In 5th or prior one thought expirement I've used is comparing +10 Dex, vs +X CL. Foe example +10 Dex (and +1 speed) vs say +10 w/ Swords.

 

Char #1 is Dex 30, Speed 6, Char #2 is Dex 20, Speed 5, w/ 30 points of levels....equivilent? With cheaper levels sure, each has cool things they can do, and can shine. With expensive levels, not so much, 8 pointers give you +4 with a couple of 3's or spend 2 extra points and get 5. Compare that to +10 Dex (and +1 speed) not near as good.

 

So for 6Th lets try that.....+10 Dex: 20 points, +3 OCV, DCV: 30 points, +1 Speed 10 points......60 points. Is a character with +6 Combat equally "cool" and capable?

Char 1 Dex 20, CV 8/8, Speed 5. Char 2 Dex 10 CV 5 Speed 4, +6 with Combat.....any other stat is identical.

 

Character 1 Goes first (a small advantage in my eyes, but an advantage none the less) Has a CV of 8 for both Offense and Defense and has 5 phases

 

Character 2 has a CV of 5 for both O and D, and has 4 phases. He can add up to 6 to either Offensive or Defensive CV, or divide as he wishes, he can add up to 3 DC's at the cost of losing 2 CV for each damage boost (hard to have a "hard and fast " value for this, it depends on Both Damage and Defense averages.) (For an Heroic game +3 DC's looks pretty boss, in a Supers game not so much...)

 

Just eye balling it, Char 1 looks to have a major advantage in combat. Drop the cost of the levels and they start to pull even. (it takes a lot to make up for the +1 speed advantage) Char 2 does have a huge advantage with Maneuvers though. Block? Automatic! Aim for a location? Not so hard! Even Dodge becomes a awesome ability with +6 tacked on.... But ballence has a two part process, one "da math" and two "da feel" so what do you feel? And what is your mathmatical take on the comparison?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

pincone, why does your 6E comparison include DEX and SPEED? Since they are no longer tied to CV they don't really apply to a straight comparison between the utility of CSL's versus CV, do they?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Here's my first, last, and only mathematical take on CSLs vs CV Purchase.

 

Compound Power:

+1 OCV, Lockout = 4pts

+1 DCV, Lockout = 4pts

+1/2 DC, Lockout = 2pts

Total Power Cost = 10pts.

 

You pay for what you get. You're getting the ability to add OCV, DCV or Damage - one at a time. The value of anything in a campaign is going to be campaign specific. If a campaign never uses Interaction Skills than even the meager 3 points for Charm is over priced. If a campaign is Psionic Wars and all abilities or Psionic Based with EGO determining combat order then DEX 20 is likely over priced, especially at 2:1.

 

Let's bring another Meta-Rule into the System; "Given two equally valid builds, you must use the most expensive one" (not the exact phrasing, but the general idea.

Assuming a Multipower (which I still say is a horrible comparison as it is a system inherently designed to give a cost break thus devaluing the Pay For What You Get aspect IMO, and should be an award for tight concept and not a benchmark) of +1OCV,+1DCV,+1/2DC (8pts) is also valid compared to the Lockout Build; the Meta-Rule tells us the 10pts is what should be purchased.

 

Of course "equally valid" is subjective - but in this case the Math Does Not Lie; 1 DC = 5pts e.g. 1/2DC=2.5 Points. Lockout is in fact -1/4. Adding the 3 elements together is a 10 point Compound Power construct.

 

I see it as a very simple point - still leaving the 'actual worth' of any element up to the game. As you pointed out - there's a great deal of versatality in Combat CSLs that you can shift around. Whether you take advantage of those options or not will ultimately determine the value of CSLs at any point cost in your game.

[Ice9]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

If that were the pricing basis used, however, wouldn't the Overall levels cost a lot more than 12 points? Honestly, Lockout, at a mere -1/4, seems more appropriate to things that you wouldn't normally want to be using at the same time anyway.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

appropriateness is also left up to the user. Looks perfectly appropriate to me in this case.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

Let's bring another Meta-Rule into the System; "Given two equally valid builds, you must use the most expensive one" (not the exact phrasing, but the general idea.

Assuming a Multipower (which I still say is a horrible comparison as it is a system inherently designed to give a cost break thus devaluing the Pay For What You Get aspect IMO, and should be an award for tight concept and not a benchmark) of +1OCV,+1DCV,+1/2DC (8pts) is also valid compared to the Lockout Build; the Meta-Rule tells us the 10pts is what should be purchased.

 

Of course "equally valid" is subjective - but in this case the Math Does Not Lie; 1 DC = 5pts e.g. 1/2DC=2.5 Points. Lockout is in fact -1/4. Adding the 3 elements together is a 10 point Compound Power construct.

 

Applying the same logic, no multipower should ever be allowed to be purchased. 5 60 AP attacks in a multipower, as Fixed slots, costs 60 for the pool + 30 for the slots = 90. 5 60 AP attack powers each with Lockout costs 240 points.

 

While you continue to suggest a Multipower should only be a reward for a tight concept, this is not the way a multipower works in the books. The only "cost break for tight concept" construct I am aware of having been in the books was the Elemental Control, which was eliminated because it was a reward for a tight concept, rather than a mechanical cost structure.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 10 pt CSL

 

"equally valid" isn't always about numbers - sometimes the Multipower is the more appropriate approach.

 

In this case, I think it's the less appropriate of two equally valid approaches. There's no need to take everything to such extremes, it obfuscates the point. And honestly looks silly.

 

No matter how I phrase it, or rephrase it, I'm of the solid belief that a Multipower is not appropriate when comparing base mechanical costs of things - like CSLs - as it then precludes the new mechanic (as a Multipower) from being placed inside a Framework. Comparing the base cost of basic aspects should be on a more generic basis is all.