Shield of Thunder.

[Alibear]

So the premise is that when the character blocks with the shield, either actively or passively, there is a mighty crash (BOOIIIINNNNGGGGGGGG!!!!) and the attacker gets a shock up his arm as if he's hit solid steel.

 

So it's a 4d6 flash to hearing and touch (24), constant +1/2, damage shield +1/4 (whatever we're calling that now?) (42 active points)

 

Now this is meant to be a powerful defensive item but feel it may be too powerful as virtually no-one has flash defence to touch/ hearing.

 

What do you think?

 

edit: Area of Effect: Personal.

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

The other thing I'm struggleing to find in 6 is Str Min limitations... any help with a page reference there?

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

I wouldn't say it was too powerful because losing touch and hearing will make things difficult for an opponent, but not impossible. Losing Touch inflicts a -3 penalty to Dex based actions in 5er. Since, as I understand it, CV has now been separated from Dex this may not be the same in 6ed. I'd still make it at least a -2. Although, to be pedantic, humans have an innate ability to sense the position of their own limbs which is supposedly separate from the sense of touch, at GM's discretion this could reduce the combat penalties of losing Touch, (particularly for a character who fights with their fists although what they were doing punching a shield in the first place is anybody's guess).

 

Not being able to hear is unhelpful, but not crippling.

 

Incidentally. I can think of a couple of other powers which the Shield of Thunder might develop. (From 5er)

 

1. An Entangle which only affects one limb, (the weapon arm of course). The arm is truly numbed an only a great burst of strength can restore feeling to it.

2. No Range Energy Blast which does Stun only. The target is dazed by the shield's thunderous note.

[dmjalund]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

I would have a numbing entangel be based on CON

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

6 has it -3 dex rolls & ocv in hth combat and ranged combat (when using a weapon.)

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

And how do we describe the ocv/ dcv thing of a shield? Lockout?

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

How do you mean? The Shield of Thunder itself? Or a shield held by a character who has hit the Shield of Thunder?

 

In the second case an entangle would prevent the affected character from being able to use anything in that hand, weapon or shield. The original power would presumably inflict the same CV penalties on a shield wielding character.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

And how do we describe the ocv/ dcv thing of a shield? Lockout?

 

By the book (6E2 p. 211) a bog-standard shield's DCV bonus is simply bought as regular DCV with an Obvious Accessible Focus and STR Minimum, and that's it. That its bonus also applies to OCV when blocking with it is basically a special effect (also covered on 6E2 p. 58, where it's simply stated that yes, that happens, and that the same applies to the DCV bonus granted by the Off-Hand Defense talent).

 

Lockout arguably wouldn't apply because the standard Block maneuver, when used, is in addition to the normal DCV (failing to block does not result in taking an automatic hit) -- and at least on short notice I can't seem to find anything in the book that says that adding the shield's bonus to your Block OCV somehow prevents you from also using it on DCV as usual.

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

As far as I can remember that was always the case since the original FH. You had extra passive dcv or extra active ocv but not both, I doubt if that has changed in 6e. Or has it?

[Chimera 12]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

As far as I can remember that was always the case since the original FH. You had extra passive dcv or extra active ocv but not both' date=' I doubt if that has changed in 6e. Or has it?[/quote']

Let me check what books I can find on short notice...

 

Champions 4E Hardcover: Says nothing about that, oddly enough, although it does briefly bring up shields in a couple of spots.

 

Fantasy Hero 4E: Does in fact state on page 100 that if the shield's DCV bonus is applied to OCV for purposes of blocking or attacking (!), it's (temporarily) lost for defensive purposes.

 

(No 5E books -- I kind of missed out on that entire edition.)

 

6th Edition Vol. 2: Once again no mention of this, neither in the section on Blocks (which does discuss "Weapons, Shields, and Strength" under this exact sub-header on page 58) nor in the short section on shields on p. 211.

 

Now, this could simply be an oversight in the 6E book. But I think -- wiser heads may correct me if I'm off target here -- that it's actually a reflection of the fact that DCV is now a characteristic in its own right rather than a fixed value derived from DEX, and that you no longer buy shields with combat skill levels dedicated to DCV (*), which indeed could only apply to either OCV or DCV but not both because that's how CSLs (still) work, but as straight DCV with appropriate limitations. A skill level you shifted to OCV would indeed be temporarily unavailable to DCV until reassigned again, but a plain old DCV bonus has, I think, some wiggle room.

 

(*) I'm not making this up, either. Straight from 6E Vol. 1 p. 71: "[...] (Limitations such as "Only for OCV" or "Only for DCV" are not legal for CSLs; if a character wants that, he should just buy more of the OCV or DCV characteristics.)" This is a functional change from the "5-point skill levels only for DCV" of yore.

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

Hmmm. I do like the idea of either or CV for shields. Passive DCV or active OCV and lockout seems to be the lim. which fits the bill. I wonder what Steve thinks?

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

Steve's perhaps not made it clear in 6e2 211 but the old rule is still in effect. You can have extra dcv or extra ocv but not both.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

Steve's perhaps not made it clear in 6e2 211 but the old rule is still in effect. You can have extra dcv or extra ocv but not both.

I've put in my own question with regard to that, so we'll see. In the meantime...

 

If it's true that a shield can only contribute to OCV or DCV but not both (nor split its bonus between the two, for that matter), then I'd say the most obvious way to model that mechanically without a "well, shields are just special" rule would probably be as a multipower with two fixed slots: one for the OCV bonus, with suitable limitations to make it apply to Block only (and possibly some other plausible maneuvers, though I don't think that it should necessarily apply to actually attacking anybody with the shield itself), and one reasonably unlimited one for DCV. (I suppose that if you didn't want a buckler-sized shield to grant a DCV boost against bullets and such, you could put that limitation there, too, but the default shields are not so restricted; it's just an idea that occurred to me while writing this.) Then apply Focus and STR Minimum to the whole power and call it a proper shield.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

As already pointed out, one way to model a shield is to use a Multipower and assign specific CSL's to specific slots.

 

Here is how I modeled the ultimate shield (Captain America's) for 5er:

 

Here's another version with a real cost 4 points higher and an active point total of 75 instead of 60. I changed Gestures to Restrainable and removed Required Hands.

 

30 The Shield - by Whammo! v3.2: Multipower, 75-point reserve, (75 Active Points); all slots OIF Unbreakable (Inaccessable Arm Straps; -1/2), Requires A DEX Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2)

Notes: The Lockout on Frisbee Throw and Ranged instances of Cutting Edge and Deflect only comes into play if those actions fail (miss) or the shield is actively attacked (or deflected) itself. Not all slots are necessary for a character to purchase to begin with (some could be learned with XP). The CSL's within some slots represent the amazing lightness of the Shield. The Requires DEX Roll offsets this somewhat (in the hands of an inexperienced user at least).

3u 1) Shield Bash: (Total: 75 Active Cost, 26 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Personal Immunity (Only To Counter Damage Shield; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; Only To Counter Damage Shield; +3/4) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (Real Cost: 20) plus +3 with HTH Combat (15 Active Points) (Real Cost: 6)

Notes: Up to 20 STR damage can be added with Advantages. Non-movement based Martial Arts and Haymaker bonus DC's add normally. Multiply velocity divisors by 3. Move By adds +1 DC/15". Move Through adds +1 DC/9".

2u 2) Frisbee Throw: Energy Blast 10d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (75 Active Points); Lockout (Only If Thrown AND the attack misses OR is Blocked/Deflected; -1/2), Limited Range (Based On STR; -1/4)

2u 3) Cutting Edge (HTH or Ranged): Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6, Personal Immunity (Only To Counter Damage Shield; +1/4), Range Based On STR (+1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; Only To Counter Damage Shield; +3/4), Penetrating (x2; +1) (75 Active Points); Lockout (Only If Thrown AND the attack misses OR is Blocked/Deflected; -1/2)

Notes: Due to Advantages it takes +25 STR to add +1 Damage Class. 75 STR would be needed to reach maximum damage of 2d6k.

2u 4) Deflect: (Total: 73 Active Cost, 23 Real Cost) Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Hardened (+1/4), Full Range (+1) (65 Active Points); Lockout (Only If Thrown AND the attack misses OR is Blocked/Deflected; -1/2), Conditional Power Range Based On Strength (-1/4) (Real Cost: 20) plus +2 OCV with any two categories of combat (HTH and Ranged) (8 Active Points) (Real Cost: 3)

Notes: 2 CSL's can be used towards Missile Deflection or Block.

2u 5) Basic Defense: Force Field (12 PD/12 ED/6 Power Defense), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Hardened (x4; +1) (75 Active Points); Limited Coverage [61-180] Degrees (-1/2)

2u 6) Full Defense (Of Others): Force Wall (12 PD/12 ED), Costs END Only To Activate (Bracing; +1/4) (75 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Limited Coverage [61-180] Degrees (-1/2), Restricted Shape (-1/4) 6

Notes: Acts as 12" Knockback Resistance

[Chimera 12]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

As an afterthought: I'm still not really seeing the "if you use your shield bonus to boost OCV to Block, you temporarily don't get to use it for DCV anymore" rule in 6E; if it's anywhere in Vol. 1 or 2, the APG, or even the Basic Rulebook of all things and I just missed it, I'd appreciate a page reference.

 

Failing that, a shield that provides an OCV bonus for blocking purposes while keeping its defensive benefits could IMO simply be built as a DCV bonus and an equal number of 2-point Combat Skill Levels ("only to increase OCV when Blocking with this shield") both provided by the same Focus. So it's definitely doable in terms of pure mechanics, and the result won't be all that much more expensive point-wise either.

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

A shield is a special item which comes with a Gentleman's Agreement with the GM which allows you to use its DCV as OCV (instead of DCV) and has done since the first edition of Fantasy Hero.

Passive DCV or Active OCV.

 

I guess this rule is so ingrained in us old timers that Steve simply forgot to write it into 6e. I'm sure that now you've brought it up it'll be in Fantasy Hero 6.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

... "if you use your shield bonus to boost OCV to Block' date=' you temporarily don't get to use it for DCV anymore" [/quote']

 

If we change the wording slightly we get a more general statement:

If you use your CSL to "fill in the blank", you temporarily don't get to use it for "fill in the blank" anymore.

 

Keep in mind, at its base mechanics, a "shield bonus" is just a specific or limited CSL.

"fill in the blank" can be anything that particular CSL can apply to (like "increase damage", "increase OCV", etc...).

[Chimera 12]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

If we change the wording slightly we get a more general statement:

If you use your CSL to "fill in the blank", you temporarily don't get to use it for "fill in the blank" anymore.

 

Keep in mind, at its base mechanics, a "shield bonus" is just a specific or limited CSL.

"fill in the blank" can be anything that particular CSL can apply to (like "increase damage", "increase OCV", etc...).

Well, no, that was kind of my point.

 

In 6E, the shield bonus is not a CSL anymore; it's bought straight as a bonus to the DCV Characteristic (6E2 211), and in fact the Combat Skill Levels description makes it explicit on page 6E1 71 that "Only for DCV" isn't a valid Limitation on CSLs in this edition. In other words, the old "Only to DCV" 5-point CSLs are now defunct. It's easy to miss the difference, though, because +1 DCV costs the exact same 5 points that they did...

 

Thus, technically it could be argued that a shield bonus shouldn't be applicable to OCV at all, not even while blocking; you didn't pay for an OCV bonus, so you shouldn't get one. The whole "shield rule" is thus something of an anomaly in the first place, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was just copied over verbatim from the older edition(s) without stopping to fully grok its implications in light of the changes to the underlying system.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

Attacks against the character with the "Shield of Thunder" will not always hit the shield

especially if the attacker is aware of the numbing boom.

If an attacker wants to avoid hitting the shield entirely, that should make defender harder to hit.

Perhaps give the damage sheild activation 14- which can be lowered by -2 each OCV the attack is willing to forgo to avoid the shield.

 

Furthermore,

if the shield adds DCV to the character what determines whether or not the shield was hit if the character was missed?

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

Here is how I see it, Matt.

 

Now, no attacker wants to hit the shield but a character moves the shield in the way of attacks - that's how shields work. There are no ways of avoiding a shield unless the character has indirect attacks, or has a flail and uses a flail manoeuvre.

 

If the shield is being used passively it will take the characters dcv up by 3. I the attacker misses by 3 or less then it hits the shield. (as per 5e shield breakage rules) If he misses by 4 or more then he doesn't hit the shield.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

I understand "damage shield" only triggers when the character is hit

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

I understand "damage shield" only triggers when the character is hit

 

This is a strong argument to drop the bonus DCV concept altogether and just give the shield defenses limited by facing and/or skill roll.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

whether or not the shield was hit should also be dependent on the ability of the attacker

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

I understand "damage shield" only triggers when the character is hit

 

When the character is touched by someone or touches someone.

[Alibear]

Re: Shield of Thunder.

 

whether or not the shield was hit should also be dependent on the ability of the attacker

 

We already have a mechanic for that - If the attacker has 12 ocv and the defender has 6 dcv then we can guess that more often than not the attcker will avoid the shield.

 

This is a strong argument to drop the bonus DCV concept altogether and just give the shield defenses limited by facing and/or skill roll.

 

Perhaps, but until Hero changes how it uses shields then I'll stick to what we've got.