Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

I fixed it! It seems to be the last item in a list sitting in the quotes.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

I suggest the assumption that a 1 point speed increase doubles attacks is an overly optimistic one' date=' and your analysis of the numbers merits revisiting.[/quote']

I didn't assume that. If I did, it would always be worth bumping SPD if your hit chance was at least 10, as opposed to the chart (based on your spd) about when it's worth bumping spd.

 

How? I can't speed up my next action for only taking a half phase action this time.

You could create a rule for that, but if it works for phase-ending actions, it would tend to result in highly static combat, since it means you pay a significant penalty for doing a move-and-attack rather than just standing still and attacking. I really wasn't referring to anything other than the ability to spend levels, and possibly throwing in a 'fast' advantage (probably +1/2, halves shot cost).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

I didn't assume that. If I did' date=' it would always be worth bumping SPD if your hit chance was at least 10, as opposed to the chart (based on your spd) about when it's worth bumping spd.[/quote']

 

Your selection of 2 levels per SPD point appears to have been based on the assumption of doubling attacks.

 

You could create a rule for that' date=' but if it works for phase-ending actions, it would tend to result in highly static combat, since it means you pay a significant penalty for doing a move-and-attack rather than just standing still and attacking. I really wasn't referring to anything other than the ability to spend levels, and possibly throwing in a 'fast' advantage (probably +1/2, halves shot cost).[/quote']

 

So for +1/2 on my 60 AP power, I can halve its shot cost. Or I could buy +10 3 point levels with that power so I can add 5 SPD (or DCV or OCV or DC's). Or I could buy +3 SPD with all actions. Thinking on that last one, why can't I just buy "+X Speed, only with Attack Power Y"?

 

Of course, that also means that a half move and attack with the 'fast' power allows me to act again faster than just making a half move.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Your selection of 2 levels per SPD point appears to have been based on the assumption of doubling attacks.

No, it was based on SPD being 10 points per +1, while CV is 5 points per +1.

Thinking on that last one' date=' why can't I just buy "+X Speed, only with Attack Power Y"?[/quote']

You can. Good point, no need for a special advantage. That's (rarely) viable with the current rules -- if you're going from 3 to 6 or 4 to 8 you can take 2 actions and then shift back to your normal spd with no penalty, since your phases will be the same.

Of course' date=' that also means that a half move and attack with the 'fast' power allows me to act again faster than just making a half move.[/quote']

The way movement works with changing speed is a bit wonky (I use my skill levels to act faster...and I can run faster too!), but that's always been true (lessee, if I have normal cha max for running and spd 2, I can run 40m/6s or about 15 mph. If I have spd 4, I can run at 40m/3s or 30 mph). Per-shot movement rates would be tempting.

[BlackSword]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

I'm not sure how I ended up being such a proponent of RAW. I'm usually the one that likes to tear apart the system and stick it to the man before he sticks it to me. Huh.

 

This is far from the first time someone has brought up an alteration or replacement of the SPD Chart. I always ask 'why?' If you want to change how much DEX costs, that is a fairly (as it goes) insular and limited change in scope. Changing the SPD chart is not only going to change the actions during combat but duration effects, healing and recoveries, movement, adjustment powers and a whole host of other things.

I have had similar thoughts about using a shot system as described, and there were plenty of parts of the system that tinkering with speed touches on.

 

 

What is it about the SPD Chart that was not working for you?

I like the Speed chart, but I also like the 'shot' initiative scheme from Feng Shui and Scion (and I think its also used in Exalted). I like the idea of that some events take longer than others, and that sometimes you can sacrifice power for speed.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

I fixed it! It seems to be the last item in a list sitting in the quotes.

 

I'm pleased, it was getting tiring having to switch to the dark background just to make one thread more readable!

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

As a side note, it's possible to be much more radical than this proposal -- this proposal doesn't require changing anyone's character sheet -- but if you're willing to simply remove Spd from the game you can just have a simple table of how long an action takes. A reasonable value might be that the default time for an action is 4 shots; it takes 2 levels to reduce to 3 shots, 5 to reduce to 2, 10 to reduce to 1. As part of an action, you may move your speed. A movement-only action takes 2 shots; 5 applicable levels reduces that to 1 shot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

You can. Good point' date=' no need for a special advantage. That's (rarely) viable with the current rules -- if you're going from 3 to 6 or 4 to 8 you can take 2 actions and then shift back to your normal spd with no penalty, since your phases will be the same.[/quote']

 

I find Limited Speed with certain actions quite viable. It's just a matter of selecting which phases can be used only for the specific actions and which provide the character with other options. If the character has a 4 SPD, +2 only for mental powers, 6 SPD moves on 2 4 6 8 10 12 and 4 would typically move on 3 6 9 12. Simplest answer is that he can only use mental powes on Ph 2 and 8 (the phases which would otherwise come before he gets an action with a 4 SPD). It's a simple matter of agreeing up front as to the extra phases.

 

My favorite form of limited SPD is SPD with an activation roll. every PS 12, roll activation. If it succeeds, he gets the extra SPD for the coming turn.

 

The way movement works with changing speed is a bit wonky (I use my skill levels to act faster...and I can run faster too!)' date=' but that's always been true (lessee, if I have normal cha max for running and spd 2, I can run 40m/6s or about 15 mph. If I have spd 4, I can run at 40m/3s or 30 mph). Per-shot movement rates would be tempting.[/quote']

 

This is tangential to my comment. Under the current SPD system, my example character cannot move in a phase where he may only use mental powers. Under yours, he has +2 SPD if he uses mental powers, so if he wants to make a half move, he uses his normal shot count, but if he also makes a 1d6 Telepathy attack against a teammate, his shot count goes down. Doing more makes him faster, for reasons I doubt many SFX will explain.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Doing more makes him faster' date=' for reasons I doubt many SFX will explain.[/quote']

True. The easiest fix would probably be going to segmented movement (i.e. baseline movement becomes 2m/seg, so if you take a move and attack that takes 3 segments you can move 6 meters as part of that action).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

The more you explain how to fix things in this "shot" model, the more complicated it seems. I can't possibly see even considering adoptiong such a system with out a reason not to use the speed chart as is...

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

The more you explain how to fix things in this "shot" model' date=' the more complicated it seems.[/quote']

Most of the responses have been 'works just like it does using the SPD chart', and most of the anomalies are equally true using the SPD chart.

[Greywind]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

But people have a lot more experience with, making them far more comfortable with, the SPD chart.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

But people have a lot more experience with' date=' making them far more comfortable with, the SPD chart.[/quote']

True. There's no question that switching from a SPD chart to a shot chart would be more difficult than not making any changes. I'm not convinced that someone starting from zero would find a shot system more complicated than the SPD chart, however. Of course, plenty of games manage to make do just fine with everyone acting once per round and managing fast characters with mechanics that allow multiple actions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Part of the problem is that the shot chart is a shift in the paradigm. To me, the major innovation of the Speed chart was the ability to have characters move more or less often, independently, rather than everyone getting one action per round. The shot chart paradigm is that the actions themselves require different time periods to complete. Combining the two so that both individual characteristics and the type of actions influence action speed makes for significant complexity, as the interaction of the two needs to be managed. It could have a very solid result, but it's going to be much more complicated.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

The shot chart paradigm is that the actions themselves require different time periods to complete.

Well, that's not a required feature, but without it there's not much to the system in the first place (it adds granularity at the low end, loses granularity at the high end). Anyway, it's been a useful enough discussion, even if I didn't persuade anyone to try it.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Part of the problem is that the shot chart is a shift in the paradigm. To me' date=' the major innovation of the Speed chart was the ability to have characters move more or less often, independently, rather than everyone getting one action per round. The shot chart paradigm is that the actions themselves require different time periods to complete. Combining the two so that both individual characteristics and the type of actions influence action speed makes for significant complexity, as the interaction of the two needs to be managed.[/quote']

 

Well, you could have each character's actions take differing amounts of time, based on their SPD and/or DEX. While that would seem to simply transfer the current system to a clock from a table, I think you'd gain some flexibility with regards to actions that took extra time.