Zones of Control in Hero

[AlHazred]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Didn't mean to imply you were a newbie; that was to counter to idea that quoting rules with reference to book and page number is a Bad Thing! Must learn to phrase better...

 

the usually useful answer to 'how do I do X' is 'like this'' date=' possibly with some discussion of the benefits and drawbacks of different methods.[/quote']Like this:

36.....Attack Of Opportunity: Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time' date=' Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; when an opponent enters a Zone Of Control defined as within 2m of the character; +3/4) for up to 120 Active Points of HKA (90 Active Points); OAF (weapon of opportunity in-hand; -1), Restrainable (-1/2) - END=9[/quote']I would not use this in my game; my strong preference would be to use the Holding An Action rules. These rules are well-developed in Hero and balance well with the fatigue rules (END usage, Recovery, etc.) However, if you wanted to provide this as a power, you could do something like I post above. The only limitations I can see to 3.5 D&D Attacks of Opportunity (AoOs) is 1) you must have a melee weapon in-hand, and 2) you must not be restrained or otherwise prevented from making the attack (around a corner, say). Those become your limitations. The power itself is a Naked Trigger Advantage which applied to whatever melee weapon (i.e., HKA) you have to hand. As designed, it will work for beings with natural HKAs, like werewolves, just not normal unarmed people (who only have a normal Hand-to-Hand Attack -- a different Power). The trigger goes off when an opponent steps into a hex within 2m of you; if he has Reach further than 2m, you are out of luck. The trigger goes off automatically. By making it reset as a Zero-Phase action, I've made it reset when your Phase begins, which also adheres to the AoO rules in D&D.

 

Problems with this? It costs END -- 9 END to be specific. This is a huge drain on whoever uses it, and since the Trigger goes off in-between Phases, it can rapidly deplete a fighter's stamina. You could add a Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2) Advantage to it, at which point it costs 54 points, which is more than most characters would want to spend. It can be made cheaper by reducing the point-value of the HKA it affects, as I just chose 120 to be the highest Active Cost for any weapon-based Power build I could think of off the top of my head. An ordinarily Heroic fighter who swings a 2d6 HKA with his sword every Phase is only going to need half as much of this ability, reducing the cost to 18 points (and reduce the END cost to 4) but technically if he uses a Potion or something to get extra damage against a tougher opponent, he's not going to be able to use it during his AoOs.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Actually, AlHazred, that approach to building "attacks of opportunity" would be even more expensive. As the description of Restrainable points out on 6E1 393, that Limitation shouldn't normally be taken together with Focus -- and certainly not together with an accessible Focus, which is by definition Restrainable already. And with either OAF or Restrainable alone (depending on whether or not the trigger requires the user to be actually holding a weapon -- if you take it with OAF, then it won't let you make opportunity attacks with natural HKAs), the Real Cost of that power goes up some more...

[Alibear]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Am I the only one that thinks duplication for this?

[dmjalund]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Naked Triggered Advantage?

[AlHazred]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Naked Triggered Advantage?

Yup. That's how several Talents are built -- Naked Advantages. This is not the only Naked Triggered Advantage I've built for games -- makes some interesting maneuvers possible even if it can get abusive; I usually only allow it for NPCs.

 

Am I the only one that thinks duplication for this?

That's using a bazooka to swat a fly. I'd save Duplication for things like a hydra's heads, where each limb can take independent action and be targeted separately; this is more of a modifier on the attacks your character is already making.

 

As the description of Restrainable points out on 6E1 393' date=' that Limitation shouldn't normally be taken together with Focus -- and certainly not together with an [i']accessible[/i] Focus, which is by definition Restrainable already. And with either OAF or Restrainable alone (depending on whether or not the trigger requires the user to be actually holding a weapon -- if you take it with OAF, then it won't let you make opportunity attacks with natural HKAs), the Real Cost of that power goes up some more...

Normally you are correct, the OAF limitation and Restrainable are exclusive of each other. However, in this case, the OAF is only part of the equation of what limits the ability. D&D won't let you make an AoO if the target has any cover at all, if it's got any concealment, and in a number of other specific situations. I was using Restrainable as shorthand for those, though I understand the mystification and would modify the power appropriately. As far as using it with unarmed HKAs, you are sort of correct -- I dropped the "not... and" from that sentence after changing it mid-stride. In any case, this falls into the category of Absolute Effects. If I built the Talent to do this, I'd calculate how much it costs for the ability, then convert it into a Talent. Once it's a Talent, it's a new Power -- as GM you can define it however you like, like letting people use it in ways not immediately covered by the Advantages/Limitations.

[Markdoc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Interestingly, I had one player ask for exactly this last night at my FH game. She's our D20 GM so likes attacks of opportunity

I don't allow naked advantages to be applied to "free" equipment, so the power will be built as:

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), Trigger: opponent vulnerable (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; player cannot activate trigger; +1/4) (19 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of opportunity) (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) 12 real points.

 

The PC already has a 22 point multipower of "sword-fightin' tricks" so this will simply cost her one point.

 

cheers, Mark

[dmjalund]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Problem with that is that you cannot use a sword trick and have an attack of opportunity in the same phase

[Markdoc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Problem with that is that you cannot use a sword trick and have an attack of opportunity in the same phase

 

Actually you can: quoting 6E here:

"If a character has a power with Trigger as a slot in a Power Framework, and he sets the Trigger, he may then shift the points in the Framework to another slot. The Triggered power remains in effect, waiting to be Triggered, even though the Framework has shifted to another power"

Since the triggered power requires a zero phase action to reset, she can only use this once a phase, but in D20 (without a feat) you can only make one attack of opportunity anyway, so that matches what she wants. She can then reset the trigger (zero-phase action) on her next phase, shift the multipower slots (zero-phase action) and use a fighting trick to attack (1/2 phase action, ends phase)

 

cheers, Mark

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Still doesn't really let you use a sword trick and an attack of opportunity in one phase.

A character can change the way his Multipower reserve points are distributed or allocated as a Zero Phase Action. However' date=' unless the GM permits otherwise, he may not distribute or allocate reserve points more than once in a Phase. For example, he could not allocate reserve points to a Teleportation slot at the beginning of his Phase, make a Half Move with Teleportation, then re-allocate points to his Blast slot and attack with the Blast — having allocated his reserve points once already at the beginning of his Phase, he cannot change that allocation until his next Phase (or unless he Aborts to do so in a later Segment).[/quote']

By extrapolation, this means that by setting the trigger it is no longer possible to use the multipower again during that phase, though it will be possible to use the multipower in later phases.

[AlHazred]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I don't allow naked advantages to be applied to "free" equipment

I didn't used to' date=' but that seems to be the way a lot of the [i']Fantasy Hero[/i] Talents are built.

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR)' date=' Trigger: opponent vulnerable (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; player cannot activate trigger; +1/4) (19 Active Points); OIF (Weapon of opportunity) (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) 12 real points[/quote']Nice!

[Markdoc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I didn't used to' date=' but that seems to be the way a lot of the [i']Fantasy Hero[/i] Talents are built

 

Yeah. I understand why they did that, but we played around - quite extensively - with naked advantages in our early FH days, before the concept had even been introduced in the rules. If people are paying points for the powers they are attached to, they seem to work OK - with some GM oversight. However, they could all too easily be abusive when applied to free equipment. Hence my house rule - naked advantages are fine, but you cannot apply them to free equipment. OTOH, I allow PCs to use power frameworks, which provides most of the utility, at only a slightly higher cost. I thus replace the naked advantage talents with powers that do the same thing, in my game.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Still doesn't really let you use a sword trick and an attack of opportunity in one phase.

 

By extrapolation, this means that by setting the trigger it is no longer possible to use the multipower again during that phase, though it will be possible to use the multipower in later phases.

 

Ah - good catch! I'd forgotten that even if they are zero phase actions, the Multipower rules only allow one switch. So you can use the triggered power and another sword trick in the same phase but you cannot allocate them in the same phase - once the AoO is used you need to spend a phase not using a sword trick to reset it, even though it's a zero phase action.

Here's a redo:

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (1.5 d6 w/STR), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +3/4) (26 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

26 active, 15 real.

Note I increased the advantage on the trigger to "takes no time" as well, since on reflection, she could only use her AoO if she had a phase, the way it was written. This version allows her to hit at someone moving past her even if she doesn't have a phase. She'll need to spend 3 points to get this fighting trick: 2 increasing her MP slot (it also has the real weapon and OIF limitations) and 1 on the slot itself.

 

cheers, Mark

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I note that the quote I gave is actually unclear on a point: let's say I used teleport last phase, so my multipower is set to teleport. Can I teleport (no allocation required), change slots, and take another action? The text implies not, but I'm not sure of the details of how -- is using the teleport allocating points?

[Markdoc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I note that the quote I gave is actually unclear on a point: let's say I used teleport last phase' date=' so my multipower is set to teleport. Can I teleport (no allocation required), change slots, and take another action? The text implies not, but I'm not sure of the details of how -- is using the teleport allocating points?[/quote']

 

Yes, you can: the rules allow you to allocate once per phase. There's nothing that implies you have to do it at the beginning of your phase - indeed the rules segment you quoted specifically says you cannot "re-allocate". So you can switch your points once. That implies you can use more than one power per phase.

 

cheers, Mark

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Change environment seem lieka controller's dream power...

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Yes' date=' you can: the rules allow you to allocate once per phase. There's nothing that implies you have to do it at the beginning of your phase - indeed the rules segment you quoted specifically says you cannot "re-allocate". So you can switch your points once. That implies you can use more than one power per phase.[/quote']

Got an answer from Steve. Using a power from a multipower is considered an (implicit) allocation of points, preventing you from changing it later.

[Alibear]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

That's using a bazooka to swat a fly. I'd save Duplication for things like a hydra's heads' date=' where each limb can take independent action and be targeted separately; this is more of a modifier on the attacks your character is already making.[/quote']

 

If you buy this with a trigger you limit yourself to what you can do in response to someone running past you while in reality you could do whatever you pleased to them. Grab, throw, punch, slash, trip, cast a spell, throw a dagger etc.

[AlHazred]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

That's where the advantage of having the game run by a person, rather than a computer or robot, comes in.

 

If I decide I want to make a Talent to do this, and cost it out as above, I just say, "This includes Attack Actions that aren't HKAs, such as Grabs, Strikes, and so on." I don't need to stat it out to each possible action unless I like that much granularity. And then who's going to buy it? 36 points is more than I expect any Heroic character to spend on any one thing.

[Alibear]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Sure, a GM can trump the rules.

 

I was juststating why I preferred the Duplication route as it is rules kosher.