Zones of Control in Hero

[ajackson]

Many wargames have a concept of a 'zone of control', which is basically a small area around the unit through which enemy units cannot move unimpeded; typically they can move into the area and stop, or some equivalent. In D&D this is handled by attacks of opportunity, though I'm not convinced that's the perfect implementation.

 

The virtue of zones of control is that it means you can effectively protect someone -- if you stand in front of someone, enemies can't just run around you and gank the guy you're protecting. Does anyone have suggestions (or house rules) for how to effectively implement zones of control in Hero? My thoughts generally focus around some form of triggered short-range move (lets you step in front of someone trying to run past, forcing a collision or stop), triggered entangle, or triggered barrier, but none seem perfect.

[Escafarc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Rules for Blocking 6E2 pg 58 has rules for Blocking for someone else and pg 128 has rules for Guarding Areas and Interposing.

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Huh. Forgot about that. Requires a held action, but guarding an area looks like it does the job (possibly slightly too well; if you just have a line of guys standing next to one another, all guarding, running up and attacking any one of them will draw attacks vs half DCV from both of his neighbors).

[Nevenall]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Huh. Forgot about that. Requires a held action' date=' but guarding an area looks like it does the job (possibly slightly too well; if you just have a line of guys standing next to one another, all guarding, running up and attacking any one of them will draw attacks vs half DCV from both of his neighbors).[/quote']

 

that's why it's a bad idea to charge a shield wall single handedly.

[Escafarc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Huh. Forgot about that. Requires a held action' date=' but guarding an area looks like it does the job (possibly slightly too well; if you just have a line of guys standing next to one another, all guarding, running up and attacking any one of them will draw attacks vs half DCV from both of his neighbors).[/quote']

 

That's why it's call strength in numbers:)

[mallet]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I think it is really a bases on how combat works in different systems. In D&D, at least from what I remember of AD&D, a round is considered to take a few seconds and an attack roll might symbolize a few different swings of a sword, etc... So they need a rule like "attack of opportunity" because combat is left a little vague and fluid.

 

With the Hero System, with it's speed chart, combat is broken down to a pretty much per second event, heck even 1/2 second events with half-phases actions. So there really isn't as much of a need for an all encompassing rule like "attack of opportunity". Interposing is what held actions are for. For example Bodyguard holds his action. Would be assassin moves in close, Bodyguard takes his held action to tackle assassin. Also since the Hero System is made to be used in multiple genres, sometimes it makes sense for an assassin to be able to move in a kill the target with out the bodyguard being able to stop him.

 

If a normal human bodyguard (Speed 2) is trying to stop a super fast, super human, assassin (speed 8) well he should fail.

[Nevenall]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I think it is really a bases on how combat works in different systems. In D&D, at least from what I remember of AD&D, a round is considered to take a few seconds and an attack roll might symbolize a few different swings of a sword, etc... So they need a rule like "attack of opportunity" because combat is left a little vague and fluid.

 

With the Hero System, with it's speed chart, combat is broken down to a pretty much per second event, heck even 1/2 second events with half-phases actions. So there really isn't as much of a need for an all encompassing rule like "attack of opportunity". Interposing is what held actions are for. For example Bodyguard holds his action. Would be assassin moves in close, Bodyguard takes his held action to tackle assassin. Also since the Hero System is made to be used in multiple genres, sometimes it makes sense for an assassin to be able to move in a kill the target with out the bodyguard being able to stop him.

 

If a normal human bodyguard (Speed 2) is trying to stop a super fast, super human, assassin (speed 8) well he should fail.

 

 

I agree with you. An extra rule for guarding is unnecessary. It's just a held action.

But according to the standard rules you loose your held action at the start of a segment in which you get your next action. So there is this dead zone between when you loose your held action and when your DEX comes up, but it's perfectly reasonable to ignore this rule. It's just there to emphasize that you can't take two actions in the same segment.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Quite often, even if the guard doesn't have a held action, moving past him into position to attack the guardee will leave the guard an attack from behind, which lowers your DCV fairly drastically (IIRC...God...it's been forever since I've played), so that should discourage any attackers who are not fanatical and/or suicidal from trying. The best the attacker can hope for there is to go down having accomplished the mission, unless he seriously outweighs the guard in fighting prowess.

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

But according to the standard rules you loose your held action at the start of a segment in which you get your next action.

That's an odd change; it used to be (4e) that you could continue holding, but if you used your held action on the same segment as you would get your next action, you lost your next action if you used the held action.

[Escafarc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I agree with you. An extra rule for guarding is unnecessary. It's just a held action.

But according to the standard rules you loose your held action at the start of a segment in which you get your next action. So there is this dead zone between when you loose your held action and when your DEX comes up, but it's perfectly reasonable to ignore this rule. It's just there to emphasize that you can't take two actions in the same segment.

 

But don't forget you can Abort to Block any attack made against someone you're guarding.

[Curufea]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Super fast/speedy types versus a normal bodyguard will get through - just possibly not on the first attack, unless there are speed modifiers for moving (fast target etc). However - you can only abort to block for your next segment, and if the attacker has more phases than the defender, they'll not be able to abort the next one.

[Escafarc]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Super fast/speedy types versus a normal bodyguard will get through - just possibly not on the first attack' date=' unless there are speed modifiers for moving (fast target etc). However - you can only abort to block for your next segment, and if the attacker has more phases than the defender, they'll not be able to abort the next one.[/quote']

 

Yes, you can. 6E2 page 58 under Multiple Blocks .

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Yeah, multiple blocks is a long-standing rule. It just gets harder to block each attack after the first until your phase rolls up and resets the penalty.

 

We had a dramatic moment in an old swords-and-sorcery game under 4th edition rules where one character had awakened a demon while in a different room from the others in the group. He knew he was outmatched so he just blocked until help came.

[Curufea]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Yes' date=' you can. 6E2 page 58 under Multiple Blocks .[/quote']

 

Whilst I've bought 6E, I've not read it yet - as I'm pretty sure I'll never play it - Current circle of friends are just not interested. I may read it some time in the future if I get the time or motivation. I've too many other projects that are creative.

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Whilst I've bought 6E' date=' I've not read it yet.[/quote']

Multiple blocks have been around since 4e at least, and probably longer.

[Curufea]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Multiple blocks have been around since 4e at least' date=' and probably longer.[/quote']

 

If I say I was aware of multiple blocks, but had forgotten them, will you realise I just don't care?

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

If I say I was aware of multiple blocks' date=' but had forgotten them, will you realise I just don't care?[/quote']

If you don't care, why not say so to start with?

[Curufea]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Pure laziness.

 

Rules quibbling and quoting page numbers are one of the main reasons I give up on ever playing crunchy systems and prefer light systems for games. It's also why I dispense with most Hero rules when running games - they can get in the way of actually roleplaying.

[Tasha]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I agree with you. An extra rule for guarding is unnecessary. It's just a held action.

But according to the standard rules you loose your held action at the start of a segment in which you get your next action. So there is this dead zone between when you loose your held action and when your DEX comes up, but it's perfectly reasonable to ignore this rule. It's just there to emphasize that you can't take two actions in the same segment.

 

Yep and in 6e2 pg 20 it talks about the dead zone. It does say that someone waiting for something specific to happen (ie awaiting a charge) can still have their held action during that "Dead Zone" period of the Segment.

 

We used to interpret the hold rules as such. If someone is holding their action and that hold extends into the Segment that they would get an action, that that hold will allow the person to go during an earlier dex in the segment (ie you don't get 2 actions in the phase, but you do get to go before you normally would). That allows someone to use their holds in an intelligent way and not be hosed by a weird wording of the rules. Again this is written in 6e2, but requires GM's permission

[Tasha]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Pure laziness.

 

Rules quibbling and quoting page numbers are one of the main reasons I give up on ever playing crunchy systems and prefer light systems for games. It's also why I dispense with most Hero rules when running games - they can get in the way of actually roleplaying.

 

Sorry, I personally quote pg numbers so other posters can tell when I am quoting the offical rules (so they can know where I am seeing what I am quoting), and when I am using a "house rule" or a "table traditional ruling"

 

For me the Rules are the solid foundation that I can hang all of the Role playing on. Rules light games annoy me as then I have to deal with the mood and biases of the GM when a rule question comes up. Dispensing with the rules would frustrate the holy hell out of me. I am not a game lawyer, but I DO like to play in games that are fair to everyone. I have been in too many games where the GM can't let their NPCs lose to the PCs to completely trust any GM. Knowing the rules and caring how they work allow me to relax and actually play the character, change that and i can't get into the game as much

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

If you don't care' date=' why not say so to start with?[/quote']

 

If I say I was aware of multiple blocks' date=' but had forgotten them, will you realise I just don't care?[/quote']

 

Pure laziness.

 

Rules quibbling and quoting page numbers are one of the main reasons I give up on ever playing crunchy systems and prefer light systems for games. It's also why I dispense with most Hero rules when running games - they can get in the way of actually roleplaying.

 

If you don't care then why way in on the topic? You act like there is a problem, a simple, RAW, solution is pointed out, and your response is "I'm lazy and can't be bothered with the rules"? Then why join the conversation? If you ignore most Hero rules or use simpler systems why would you possibly be looking for a house rule to simulate something that can already be done?

 

EDIT: And I'd hardly call pointing out that a house rule is not needed because what the OP is looking for can already be done as "rules quibbling". Page quoting is usually for reference. If anything, this thread is helping keep things simple by pointing out a complicated house rule that may have a ripple effect on game play is not needed.

[Improbable]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Thank you, Tasha, for being concise and helpful!

[Tasha]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

Thank you' date=' Tasha, for being concise and helpful![/quote']

 

Heh, No Problem! I try my best

[AlHazred]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

I agree with Tasha, and not just because she's a Mac Goddess! Quoting rules with reference to page numbers is of great use to newbies, who are the people the boards are mostly for. The rest of us old fogey 1st-edition-Champions-black-and-white-book-only players could really have our arcane discussions just about anywhere!

 

If you wanted to do something a little different in Hero, you could always do some sort of Naked Trigger power -- I mostly use it to allow for oddball power wording when converting from other games, for example the beholders I posted a short while ago. Check out their Eyes Of The Beholder power.

 

Character: D&D 4E Beholder Eye Of Flame

Character: D&D 4E Beholder Eye Tyrant

[ajackson]

Re: Zones of Control in Hero

 

While I wouldn't call myself a newbie per se (lessee, first played champions in 1988), the usually useful answer to 'how do I do X' is 'like this', possibly with some discussion of the benefits and drawbacks of different methods.