How would YOU apply this attack?

[GoldenAge]

A Martial Artist is amazing with bladed weapons, has 2 short magical falchions (and is pretty strong on top of it all). The attack looks like this:

 

15 STR (+1d6 HKA)

2 Magical Falchions = 2d6 HKA; Penertating (+1/2)

Martial Maneuver: All Out Attack (+4DC Strike)

Lightning quick with blades: Naked Advantage: Autofire = 3 shots (+1/4); for up to 45 AP.

 

Okay... Let's start adding things up...

STR = 1d6; Falchions = 2d6; Martial Maneuver = 1d6+1 - NOTE: Drop the +1 because the 2d6 of the falchions can only be increased to 4d6. SO... 4d6 it is!

 

However, what about the Penetrating Advantage?

1. Is it applied to the entire 4d6 or only to the 2d6 of the falchions?

2. If its the later, are they applied as 1 or 2 seperate attacks vs. the defender's defenses, or does he just roll 2 "marked" dice (to represent the falchions) and 2 regular dice and apply the Penetrating to the totals rolled only on the marked dice while applying the total 4d6 damage against the defender's defenses?

 

And what about the Autofire? Does he get 3 or 6 shots?

 

Sorry, I usually have this kinda stuff down... But today I'm feelin' a but fuzzy.

[Escafarc]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Did you buy the 2 Falchions as two seperate 2D6 attacks?

[Escafarc]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

OK lets see if I can get this time. All your Advantages have to be large enough to cover all the DCs or you have to reduce the DCs added by the same percentage.

[GoldenAge]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Did you buy the 2 Falchions as two seperate 2D6 attacks?

Yes, they are two 2d6 weapons.

[GoldenAge]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

OK lets see if I can get this time. All your Advantages have to be large enough to cover all the DCs or you have to reduce the DCs added by the same percentage.

Thanks. I understand that to get the full Penetrating advantage on the 4d6 I'd have to pay for 4d6 (not 2d6 as it is currently purchased to represent the magical quality of the swords). The question is... How do I apply this attack (2d6 Penetrating+2d6N) against an opponent's defenses? And does the Autofire provide multiple attacks for each sword (6 attacks).

 

Also, every time a weapon that has Penetrating + a damage bonus (be it from strength or martial maneuver or whatever) the attack dice must be parsed for penetrating but added together for full effect? Do you calculate the effects of Penetrating vs the total damage on the 2d6 or the 4d6?

[ayinde]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

as a gm i always follow the idea that all off hand attacks are just extra non-modified attacks so the extra falchion would just be an extra 3d6<--at best damage but this is more a house rule i dont know what rule is inprint

[Daltwisney]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

According to the Adding Damage rules (6E2, p99-102) you have:

 

Base Attack: 2d6 HKA, Penetrating (+1/2)

+15 STR (+3 DC)

Maneuver (+4 DC)

 

So, you have a total of +7DC on an attack with a +1/2 advantage. This adds +1 1/2d6K Penetrating.

Thus, an attack with the Falchion does 3 1/2d6K Penetrating.

Autofire makes it 3 shots with 1 Falchion.

 

According to the Multiple Attack rules, you cannot use Multiple Attack with a Martial Maneuver, so you are left with

2d6 HKA Pen, +15 STR (+3 DC). The 3 DCs get you +1/2d6K Penetrating, so you can do two attacks at 2 1/2d6K Penetrating, adding the AF3 if you wish, for a maximum possible of 6 hits at 2 1/2d6K Penetrating.

 

Hope he has a lot of END.

[Escafarc]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Thanks. I understand that to get the full Penetrating advantage on the 4d6 I'd have to pay for 4d6 (not 2d6 as it is currently purchased to represent the magical quality of the swords). The question is... How do I apply this attack (2d6 Penetrating+2d6N) against an opponent's defenses? And does the Autofire provide multiple attacks for each sword (6 attacks).

 

Also, every time a weapon that has Penetrating + a damage bonus (be it from strength or martial maneuver or whatever) the attack dice must be parsed for penetrating but added together for full effect? Do you calculate the effects of Penetrating vs the total damage on the 2d6 or the 4d6?

 

The STR and Martial Manuver wouldn't add 2D6 because of the Penetrating Advantage. You would get[35APs(i.e.STR:15APS+Mar.Man.:20APs)/1.5=23APs] 4DCs added to the base DCs for a total of 10DCs(3D6+1 Penetrating). If you want the full 4D6 Penetrating you have to increase the total APs covered by the Advantage.

[Escafarc]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

According to the Adding Damage rules (6E2, p99-102) you have:

 

Base Attack: 2d6 HKA, Penetrating (+1/2)

+15 STR (+3 DC)

Maneuver (+4 DC)

 

So, you have a total of +7DC on an attack with a +1/2 advantage. This adds +1 1/2d6K Penetrating.

Thus, an attack with the Falchion does 3 1/2d6K Penetrating.

Autofire makes it 3 shots with 1 Falchion.

 

According to the Multiple Attack rules, you cannot use Multiple Attack with a Martial Maneuver, so you are left with

2d6 HKA Pen, +15 STR (+3 DC). The 3 DCs get you +1/2d6K Penetrating, so you can do two attacks at 2 1/2d6K Penetrating, adding the AF3 if you wish, for a maximum possible of 6 hits at 2 1/2d6K Penetrating.

 

Hope he has a lot of END.

 

I don't have my books with me at the moment. So go with this. I was just spitballing it

[GoldenAge]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Thanks guys!

[GoldenAge]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

So, this character could attempt a straight attack with the two falchions (using multiple power attack) and deliver 3.5d6 Penetrating; Autofire (3) that requires 2 attack rolls with the total potential of 6 hits (of course, paying END on all of the attacks as well as the Auto Fire nakid advantage (twice)...

 

OR

 

He could utilize his Martial Art (thus gaining substantial OCV/DCV bonuses) to attack with 1 falchion and deliver 2.5d6 Penetrating; Autofire (3) for 3 shots (with the single falchion).

 

This right?

[Escafarc]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Reverse the damage 2.5D6 with Multi Attack and 3.5 with Martial Arts.

[GoldenAge]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Okay...

 

2.5d6 with the possibility of 6 hits

or

3.5d6 with the possibility of 3 hits (plus Martial Arts OCV/DVC bonuses)

 

Whew!

 

Question: Is there any way to use BOTH swords AND Martial Arts?

(If not, it's always possible to call the 3-shot autofire the use of both swords from a cosmetic perspective, I guess)

[Escafarc]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

If this is for a Supers as oppose to a Heroic game I would use the Martial Arts built as a Multipower option for your weapon attacks with different slots for single and two-weapons attacks.

[GoldenAge]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

The game is actually a super high fantasy game. 400 point characters!!!

[Escafarc]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Then build this with a Multi-Power. Slots for one weapon and slots for two weapons then you can use your martial arts with it since each slot is a single power and there is no need for Multi-Attack.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

I've a similar problem with a Character I'm building. Please bear in mind I'm playing 5th Ed

 

Character STR 15, Dex 15

Weapons: Two Short Swords 1d6+1 HKA, AP

 

Martial Manuevers - Martial Disarm, Martial Block, Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, Defensive Strike

CSL: +2 HtH

Skills: Two-weapon fighting

Talents: Ambidexterity

 

Normally he would get a Two attacks at OCV 7, DCV 3; 2d6 AP.

 

I get that even though he has 15 STR, he only adds +2 DC AP to each Sword. But what about the Martial Manuevers? And do I add both STR and Martial Manuever to the Weapon Damage, or is it One or the Other? The Martial Arts section of combat just says "When a character uses a Martial Maneuver with a weapon, substitute the weapons's damage for "STR" listed in the Damage/Effects Column, and consider any added damage as added Damage Classes, not added d6's"

 

So, for example my character was in melee with two individuals and wanted to attack one with a Martial Strike and the Other with an Offensive Strike, is the following correct?

 

Total DCV: 3 (Half of 5 plus +1 from the Offensive Strike)

 

Thug A - Martial Strike OCV 7 ; 2.5 d6 HKA AP (4 DC AP Sword, +2 DC AP STR, +2 DC Manuver)

Thug B - Offensive Strike OCV 5 ; 3d6+1 HKA AP (4 DC AP Sword, +2 DC AP STR, +4 DC Manuver)

[Daltwisney]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Total DCV: 3 (half of [5 +1 for the Offensive Strike])

OCV: 7 - 2 (2 attacks) - 2 (cumulative OCV penalties for the two maneuvers) = 3 OCV with each attack. Once he misses, he misses with any remaining attacks.

Sweep Maneuver (5Er, p397)

 

The damage numbers are correct for 5Er.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Total DCV: 3 (half of [5 +1 for the Offensive Strike])

OCV: 7 - 2 (2 attacks) - 2 (cumulative OCV penalties for the two maneuvers) = 3 OCV with each attack. Once he misses, he misses with any remaining attacks.

Sweep Maneuver (5Er, p397)

 

The damage numbers are correct for 5Er.

 

And here I was certain I had the CV's correct. At least I had the damages correct.

 

I don't have 5Er, just Fred. So either I'm reading it wrong or they changed something cuz according to Fred pg 51 anyone with Two Weapon Fighting ignores the first -2 penalty for using Sweep (which means the first attack with each hand is unmodified for Sweeping). And on Page 263 it says the -2 penalty only applies to each attack after the first, and adjustments to OCV from Martial Manuevers are not cumulative, they apply only to the individual attacks.

 

So is it a version change or did I misread something (and please bear with me, I haven't had access to my HERO books for the past 4 1/2 years and have been playing nothing but DnD 3.5 *shudder*)

[Daltwisney]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

Actually, I forgot/ignored the fact he had Two-Weapon Fighting, so he would not suffer the -2 for the second attack. Also, he would only have a -2 to his DCV instead of halving it.

 

The wording of the Sweep rule can be a little confusing, it says you suffer a -2 penalty to OCV FOR each attack after the first, not TO each attack after the first, but Two-Weapon Fighting makes that moot in this case.

 

In 5Er, if both maneuvers have DCV bonuses, only the lowest applies (thus the +1 in this case). Any OCV and DCV penalties are cumulative.

I only have Revised, so I don't know the text from just 5E.

 

So,

Total DCV = 5 - 2(Sweep w/Two-Weapon Fighting) + 1 (Offensive Strike) = 4

OCV = 7 - 0 (Sweep w/Two-Weapon Fighting & 2 attacks) - 2 (total OCV penalties for Martial Maneuvers) = 5

 

Makes those 10 pts for Two-Weapon Fighting almost worth it.

 

Sorry for the incorrect info before, but my 5E-fu is rusty, been playing 6E for half a year.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

two weapon attacks require a full phase

as auto fire does not so a move can be made in addition to a selective fire attack

[Greywind]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

A Martial Artist is amazing with bladed weapons, has 2 short magical falchions (and is pretty strong on top of it all). The attack looks like this:

 

15 STR (+1d6 HKA)

2 Magical Falchions = 2d6 HKA; Penertating (+1/2)

Martial Maneuver: All Out Attack (+4DC Strike)

Lightning quick with blades: Naked Advantage: Autofire = 3 shots (+1/4); for up to 45 AP.

 

Okay... Let's start adding things up...

STR = 1d6; Falchions = 2d6; Martial Maneuver = 1d6+1 - NOTE: Drop the +1 because the 2d6 of the falchions can only be increased to 4d6. SO... 4d6 it is!

 

However, what about the Penetrating Advantage?

1. Is it applied to the entire 4d6 or only to the 2d6 of the falchions?

2. If its the later, are they applied as 1 or 2 seperate attacks vs. the defender's defenses, or does he just roll 2 "marked" dice (to represent the falchions) and 2 regular dice and apply the Penetrating to the totals rolled only on the marked dice while applying the total 4d6 damage against the defender's defenses?

 

And what about the Autofire? Does he get 3 or 6 shots?

 

Sorry, I usually have this kinda stuff down... But today I'm feelin' a but fuzzy.

I would apply it with a roll of three dice...

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

In 5Er' date=' if both maneuvers have DCV bonuses, only the lowest applies (thus the +1 in this case). Any OCV and DCV penalties are cumulative.[/quote']

 

Domo Aragato!

 

I only have Revised, so I don't know the text from just 5E.

....

Sorry for the incorrect info before, but my 5E-fu is rusty, been playing 6E for half a year.

 

No Worries.

 

two weapon attacks require a full phase

 

I wouldn't run it any other way... too much time playing DnD I guess

Besides, considering Martial Manuevers are a 1/2 phase action, two in one phase screams "Full Phase Action!!!"

 

And I've had a love/hate relationship with Autofire for HtH combat ever since I started playing HERO back in 2000.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

I thought dungeons and dragons often include multiple attacks

 

claw. claw, bite

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: How would YOU apply this attack?

 

I thought dungeons and dragons often include multiple attacks

 

claw. claw, bite

 

Oh it does. But their justification is A) 1 round is 6 seconds and Mr. Dragon's Claw/Claw/Bite/Wing/Wing/Tail Slap is all happening at once because he is Mr. Super Co-ordination.

 

Just like a 20th LV Fighter gets four attacks in 6 Seconds because he his supposively hitting more than one foe with a single swing. Even if he takes a five foot step between attacks 2 and 3.

 

As I said. Love/Hate relationship. It's cool as all get out, but seems like a bit much as I seem to recall 1 Segment is 1 Second in combat time. Hitting someone 3 times in one segment with one arm... Even a D20 Monk's Flurry of Blows isn't THAT insane.

 

Now I can see it being justifiable in someone who's special powers were speed (ie, The Flash) or if in a fantasy setting someone where magically Hasted. But even with top training and experience, being able to hit someone 3 or more times in one second in real life and be able to cause them grevious harm... dunno. Sounds a hair bit far fetched.