Absorption of Knockback

[radioKAOS]

Greetings Herophiles!

 

Been many a moon since I've posted here, and I'm amazed that my login still works!

 

That all aside, I've finally convinced my group to start playing a supers game using the HERO system and one of them wants to make a kinetic absorption type. Any power builds related are more than welcome but he had one request that I just hadn't come across...

 

He wants to absorb KB and be able to redirect it.

 

Any ideas?

[Rapier]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

I don't think there is a specific mechanic to do this.

 

But for starters, what do you mean by "Redirect?"

 

You blast me and I focus the KB back to you? KB Resist and a Damage Shield.

You blast me and I store the KB juice for later? Absorb (as a Defense) into an END Reserve that a Blast draws from.

You blast me and right away I have to blast something else? KB Resist plus a Triggered Blast

[Escafarc]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

Don't forget Reflection.

[Rapier]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

That does bring up a good point. While I don't think it is possible to directly Deflect, Reflect or Absorb KB, what IS KB? KB is determined by how much BODY the attack does. Couldn't you just Reflect the entire blast and call it 'absorbing KB and redirecting it at another target?' Especially if you further limit it to 'Only Reflect the Amount of KB Done.'

 

That certainly sounds like the easiest, most straight forward, simplest and cheapest method.

[Escafarc]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

Even though it says that with the Variable Advantage or SF/X that you can't change the attack reflected I think I would allow it in this case.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

The problem is that he doesn't have any defensive ability when it comes to "energy attacks" just to the physicality of being knocked back. So how can I model that he takes the EB damage but not the KB and redirects the amount of KB done back on the attacker?

Some use of TK?

[radioKAOS]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

I don't think there is a specific mechanic to do this.

 

But for starters, what do you mean by "Redirect?"

 

You blast me and I focus the KB back to you? KB Resist and a Damage Shield.

You blast me and I store the KB juice for later? Absorb (as a Defense) into an END Reserve that a Blast draws from.

You blast me and right away I have to blast something else? KB Resist plus a Triggered Blast

 

I'm thinking it stops the KB given (KB Resist) and then it automatically pushes the attacker back that amount... ? I'm still kinda working the concept, but I'm sure you're picking up what I'm laying down.

[Escafarc]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

Lots of KB resistance plus an EB with a Trigger with a limit of the DC of the attack equal to the DC of KB damage you would of taken before subtracting the KB resisistance.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

Lots of KB resistance plus an EB with a Trigger with a limit of the DC of the attack equal to the DC of KB damage you would of taken before subtracting the KB resisistance.

 

But what happens if say, a tree falls on him? It blasts the tree to pieces? That doesn't make sense with the concept. I guess an EB with "only to do KB?"

 

I think the point is to have it push the target back rather than straight damage.

[dmjalund]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

use triggered limited telekinesis instead

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

use triggered limited telekinesis instead

 

Concur. I would build it something like this (I may need more ads/disads than what I have, I don't have FRED in front of me):

 

Kinetic Redirection:

KB Resist 20 pts

TK 20 STR; 0 END (+1/2), Trigger (+1?), only up to Amount of Knockback resisted (-1/2) AP 75? RC 50?

 

Or Something like that. *shrug* Might need to tone it down to 16 STR if you are in a 60 pt ceiliing game.

[Shadowpup]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

KB Resistance, X pts.

Redirected Kinetic Force: Dispel KB Resistance 10d6, Causes KB, Double KB, Only after getting hit with an attack that would cause KB.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

Concur. I would build it something like this (I may need more ads/disads than what I have, I don't have FRED in front of me):

 

Kinetic Redirection:

KB Resist 20 pts

TK 20 STR; 0 END (+1/2), Trigger (+1?), only up to Amount of Knockback resisted (-1/2) AP 75? RC 50?

 

Or Something like that. *shrug* Might need to tone it down to 16 STR if you are in a 60 pt ceiliing game.

I think you need a "only to push" limit too. Not sure of the value on that though.

[Escafarc]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

The target should also be able to his KB resistance if any vs. the TK.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

Okay, now I have my copy of FRED available. Here is my take (5th ed style) on what radioKAOS's player was wanting to build:

 

60 Kinetic Absorbtion: KB Resistance 30pts

27 Kinetic Redirection: TK 18 STR; Trigger: When struck by an attack that would deal KB (+1/4), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Accurate to 1 Hex (+1/2); TK Affects whole object (-1/4), only up to Amount of Knockback resisted (-1/2), Push Only (-1/4), KB Resistance Applies (-1/4), Linked to Kinetic Absorbtion (-0). 60 AP

 

What this will do is when the PC is struck by an attack that does knock-back, he will ignore the first 20 points and immediately strike at the offender. The offender will then be thrown by the TK a distance of the amount the the KB done, or the Throw's maximum distance - whichever is greater.

 

I linked the two powers at a 0 value to represent that if someone were to dispell or drain KB resistance then the TK would be affected. I feel that the amount drained would be a percentage... so if Leechboy hit this PC with a Drain to his KB resistance and drained 10 Points, he would be reduced to 25KB Resist and 15 TK STR.

 

And finally, this assumes a 60 pt AP limit on powers

 

If anyone has another way to build this, I'd actually like to see it. And feel free to tell me how wrong I am, cuz I usually am

[Rapier]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

Okay' date=' [i']now[/i] I have my copy of FRED available. Here is my take (5th ed style) on what radioKAOS's player was wanting to build:

 

60 Kinetic Absorbtion: KB Resistance 30pts

27 Kinetic Redirection: TK 18 STR; Trigger: When struck by an attack that would deal KB (+1/4), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Accurate to 1 Hex (+1/2); TK Affects whole object (-1/4), only up to Amount of Knockback resisted (-1/2), Push Only (-1/4), KB Resistance Applies (-1/4), Linked to Kinetic Absorbtion (-0). 60 AP

 

What this will do is when the PC is struck by an attack that does knock-back, he will ignore the first 20 points and immediately strike at the offender. The offender will then be thrown by the TK a distance of the amount the the KB done, or the Throw's maximum distance - whichever is greater.

 

I linked the two powers at a 0 value to represent that if someone were to dispell or drain KB resistance then the TK would be affected. I feel that the amount drained would be a percentage... so if Leechboy hit this PC with a Drain to his KB resistance and drained 10 Points, he would be reduced to 25KB Resist and 15 TK STR.

 

And finally, this assumes a 60 pt AP limit on powers

 

If anyone has another way to build this, I'd actually like to see it. And feel free to tell me how wrong I am, cuz I usually am

 

In a 60AP campaign, you are going to MAX OUT KB at about 21" (barring special maneuvers or extra damage). So anything over 21" is going to be wasted. Even then, I think I would counsel the player that 10" or 15" would be sufficient for the most part. The character may take a couple of points of KB on occasion, but I would rather have the character take a couple of points and spend the XP later if desired rather than waste the points by over-purchasing defenses.

 

Each 1" of KB = 1d6 of damage. Each 5 STR of TK = 1d6 of damage. 1" of KB = 5 STR of TK. Assuming the max KB is 21", the power should be appropriately built with 105 STR TK.

 

For throwing you only consider the Extra STR. To lift a person requires 10 STR. So (from your build) the damage/throw distance is based off 8 STR. 8 STR is a throw of 12m (6" in the old parlance) and does 1.5d6 damage.

 

I'm thinking that you build the Compound Power with KB Resist and I might simplify with a Triggered KB Only x2KB Blast, Limited to the amount of KB.

 

I think I got all that right. I'm medicated right now, but I think I that's right.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

In a 60AP campaign, you are going to MAX OUT KB at about 21" (barring special maneuvers or extra damage). So anything over 21" is going to be wasted. Even then, I think I would counsel the player that 10" or 15" would be sufficient for the most part. The character may take a couple of points of KB on occasion, but I would rather have the character take a couple of points and spend the XP later if desired rather than waste the points by over-purchasing defenses.

 

Each 1" of KB = 1d6 of damage. Each 5 STR of TK = 1d6 of damage. 1" of KB = 5 STR of TK. Assuming the max KB is 21", the power should be appropriately built with 105 STR TK.

 

For throwing you only consider the Extra STR. To lift a person requires 10 STR. So (from your build) the damage/throw distance is based off 8 STR. 8 STR is a throw of 12m (6" in the old parlance) and does 1.5d6 damage.

 

I'm thinking that you build the Compound Power with KB Resist and I might simplify with a Triggered KB Only x2KB Blast, Limited to the amount of KB.

 

I think I got all that right. I'm medicated right now, but I think I that's right.

 

So you're saying the power should look like this:

 

30 Kinetic Absorbtion: KB Resistance 15pts

30 Kinetic Redirection: EB 4d6; Trigger: When struck by an attack that would deal KB (+1/4), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Accurate to 1 Hex (+1/2), Double KB (+3/4); Attack only does KB (-1), Linked to Kinetic Absorbtion (-0). 60 AP

 

This would allows the character to Absorb up to 15" of KB and deal up to 8" in return.

 

The reason I put only does KB at -1 is that "Only does stun" is a -3/4." Dealing neither Body nor Stun seems to be worth more than that IMHO. It is probably worth more than just a -1 *shrug*

[Matt Holck]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

knockback could be defined as it's own attack

currently there's a sort of knock back lottery into determining the amount.

(count the body of the attack and subtract 2d6)

 

I would argue limiting knockback will not scale to high points game

where overcoming the subtracted cost is just a base cost average 7d6 (35 points)

 

Maybe a pure knockback attack could cost 5 points per inch.

[Rapier]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

So you're saying the power should look like this:

 

30 Kinetic Absorbtion: KB Resistance 15pts

30 Kinetic Redirection: EB 4d6; Trigger: When struck by an attack that would deal KB (+1/4), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Accurate to 1 Hex (+1/2), Double KB (+3/4); Attack only does KB (-1), Linked to Kinetic Absorbtion (-0). 60 AP

 

This would allows the character to Absorb up to 15" of KB and deal up to 8" in return.

 

The reason I put only does KB at -1 is that "Only does stun" is a -3/4." Dealing neither Body nor Stun seems to be worth more than that IMHO. It is probably worth more than just a -1 *shrug*

 

Yes, that was more like what I was thinking, but you would still need the EB to go to 8d6 so that the x2 KB would be equal to 16" of KB, and match up the numbers (ie -16" KB and 8d6 EB, -14" KB and 7d6 EB).

 

I'm almost wondering if building the EB as a Damage Shield might not be more effective and/or simpler.

 

It certainly does turn out to be rather expensive, but I guess the effect is worth the cost. I could easily see this also being the characters signature power.

[Rapier]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

knockback could be defined as it's own attack

currently there's a sort of knock back lottery into determining the amount.

(count the body of the attack and subtract 2d6)

 

I would argue limiting knockback will not scale to high points game

where overcoming the subtracted cost is just a base cost average 7d6 (35 points)

 

Maybe a pure knockback attack could cost 5 points per inch.

 

IIRC, there are some published characters with KB Attacks that have the KB Only value at about -1 or so. So an EB/Blast, KB Only is about 2.5 or 3pts per die.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

In a 60AP campaign, you are going to MAX OUT KB at about 21" (barring special maneuvers or extra damage). So anything over 21" is going to be wasted. Even then, I think I would counsel the player that 10" or 15" would be sufficient for the most part. The character may take a couple of points of KB on occasion, but I would rather have the character take a couple of points and spend the XP later if desired rather than waste the points by over-purchasing defenses.

 

Each 1" of KB = 1d6 of damage. Each 5 STR of TK = 1d6 of damage. 1" of KB = 5 STR of TK. Assuming the max KB is 21", the power should be appropriately built with 105 STR TK.

 

For throwing you only consider the Extra STR. To lift a person requires 10 STR. So (from your build) the damage/throw distance is based off 8 STR. 8 STR is a throw of 12m (6" in the old parlance) and does 1.5d6 damage.

 

I'm thinking that you build the Compound Power with KB Resist and I might simplify with a Triggered KB Only x2KB Blast, Limited to the amount of KB.

 

I think I got all that right. I'm medicated right now, but I think I that's right.

You don't have to Throw the character. You can push them. Any character can Push with their normal STR and an attack roll (there's even a MA move Shove), don't know why it wouldn't be the same for TK.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Absorption of Knockback

 

You don't have to Throw the character. You can push them. Any character can Push with their normal STR and an attack roll (there's even a MA move Shove)' date=' don't know why it wouldn't be the same for TK.[/quote']

 

This is kind of interesting.... What if it is a triggered Shove maneuver with the TK?? Not at home, no books, but could be a very interesting solution - anyone wanna take a stab at that?