Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

[yukonhorror]

Similar to my post on how much body is typically accrued thread, I am wondering how many points (in 6e) is considered a challenge for a bad guy.

 

What I mean:

(6e)

I have three 175 pt characters (each with 50 pts of complications) in Fantasy Hero. I create an encounter of three orcs built with 175 character pts (and 50 pts of complications).

 

Will this encounter be challenging, on par, or easy for the party?

 

In general what is the rule of thumb when it comes to designing monsters for a fantasy game?

 

I.e. 75% of total character pts is an suitable challenge, 50% is easy, 100% is tough (but doable), and 125% is a major challenge that will require luck and serious smarts to come out alive.

[Alibear]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

I gnerally just build characters such:

 

Description

OCV

DCV

Damage

Stun

Body

PD/ED

 

notes/powers

[Mickael]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

Another question I still don't have an answer for, similar to yours, is how to balance an encounter between a group of PCs and a single opponent. I don't think that 3 175 points PCs will be able to tickle a 525 NPC... Does someone have a solution?

 

(I don't want to hijack your thread, it's just that it seems to me that the answer will also be useful for you)

[Alibear]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

Trial and error. Start small and build up your threat level until you find you get an idea of what the PCs can handle.

[yukonhorror]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

I gnerally just build characters such:

 

Description

OCV

DCV

Damage

Stun

Body

PD/ED

 

notes/powers

 

 

That doesn't answer my question at all. I want to know how many points to put into stats and such.

 

Yes it is trial and error, hence why I asked in the forum. I am asking from YOUR experience, what is the rule of thumb for a challenge. I don't want to throw 3 175 point orcs at the PC's and they all die. I also don't want to throw them 3 75 pt orcs and they kill them without breaking a sweat. Finally, I am trying to assess how much body dam my PC's will likely accumulate in a day, and I need to have the bad guys at an appropriate challenge level to assess that.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

That doesn't answer my question at all. I want to know how many points to put into stats and such.

It DOES sort of answer your question, just not in the way you were looking for. Whether an opponent is going to be a challenge is going to depend more on their various combat abilities (assuming this is supposed to pose a challenge in combat rather than other arenas) than total points. If you think about it, how would a 175-point character built around combat skills match up against a 175-point character built for social intrigue? If you build equal-point characters with the same kind of combat focus as the PCs and make them equal in number, it would be about an even challenge except that the players have a lot more time and brainpower to throw at the situation.

 

In all it's probably better just to compare CVs, Speed, damage capability, defenses, etc., and not worry so much about total points. That can be difficult if you're trying to prepare ahead of time without knowing what your PCs look like, but you can always make little adjustments in number or combat ability once you know who you're challenging. Consider: 1.) how likely is it the NPCs will hit the PCs? 2.) how much damage will they get past defenses when they do? 3.) how long can the PCs last against that kind of abuse, 4.) how likely is it the PCs will hit the NPCs? 5.) how much damage will they get past the NPC's defenses? etc. How the encounter is played will change your estimates, but that's the fun of tactics. How hard do you want the players to have to work (and think) to prevail?

[JavalTigar]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

things to watch for:

1) SPD

- if you have lots of lower lvl goblins, like dbl # of your PCs, make sure the goblins are slower than your PCs or they will get overwelmed quickly due to per attack numbers. i.e; 3 PCs @ SPD 4 vs 6 Goblins @ SPD 5 = PCs 12 hits per turn vs Goblins 30 hits per turn. For 3 "equals" then it should be the same as the PCs, maybe 1 faster & 1 slower. And a big "dragon" type might be equal or 1 faster.

 

2) total points spent on combat

- if your PCs spent 175 but only "really" spent 140-150 on combat related stuff, due to the fact some of their skills and powers have non-combat uses, if their foes spend the full 175 on combat, that can present a challenge. Same goes for the goblins as above. Maybe 90-100 points for them. Basically the PCs should be 1-shotting those types. the big "dragon" should be 175% to 225% what the PCs spent on combat, so 300 pts +/- 50

 

3) CVs

-for goblin swarms they should be lower, for 3 "equals" they sould be the same to just a tad lower, for the "dragon" type creature it should be same to slightly higher. This helps even the playing field.

 

Overall keep in mind that behind the screen your dice read however to tell the best story. If it appears that you made an attack too powerful then pull back, switch targets, "roll badly" to hit. Whatever.

 

The battle should be epic, but not a pushover. I don't believe in a TPK. Only the potential to have the party wake from what they tought was defeat to end up working for the Dragon. For a while

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

Yeah, Total Point Level of an NPC is not really the measuring stick to use.

 

It will take some time - and likely some creative flubbing of rolls on your part - to figure out the balance of power and what would be a challenge, what would be a pushover, and what would be a total party wipe. I've been playing HERO for 20-ish years and nearly had a total party wipe because I forgot that two of my characters defenses went down when they were stunned.

 

So the advice above is good - an encounter / NPC is balanced to the players by the attributes that will affect the encounter, and this isn't always a combat thing.

 

For combat, you want to look at SPD, Defenses, average and highest attacks, CV, and what nasty tricks your NPC has more so than how many points he spent total. And Active Points are your ruler there - if an NPC's highest attack is 75 AP, and your PC's are all 75-ish AP powers, it should be more or less a fair fight. Make sure all your NPC's do have some weakness (same goes for PC's, ideally), and that the players have an opportunity - should they realize it - to use this weakness.

 

BBEG's should have higher active point defenses and attacks, but not by a lot or things can get ugly. Minions should all have lower active points and be only truly dangerous in large numbers.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

I break my FH encounters into several levels. First, I have the "mooks", or characters without a lot of combat experience (peasants, common cityfolk without training, and so on). In general, they will have familiarity with one or two weapons, SPD 2 or 3, and are rated in "Hits" rather than STUN and BODY. Hits is usually in the 1-3 range, and represents the number of times the PC does BODY before the mook runs away or is disabled in combat. If the PC does quite a bit of damage, I'll usually break it down to about 3 BODY damage per hit, but that's a flexible number, based upon the needs of the encounter. I usually allow 2-3 mooks per PC, though once again, that's based upon what's needed for the scene. These characters get a generic writeup, which looks like what Alibear suggests.

 

The next level would be the basic fighter. This would represent someone with a little bit of combat experience. They are usually SPD 3, have a bit of armor, and a level or two with their weapon. They may be trained in tactics, so it's possible that they'll be able to work together. They still won't be anywhere near a PC's level for raw combat, and their challenge will be mostly in coordinated attacks. Typically, I use two per PC, though this may vary, depending upon the needs of the scene. The writeup is once again like Alibear's, though I often use an Agent sheet for tracking them. Like the mooks, I don't spend the time fully fleshing out these characters.

 

The next level would be a featured character. These are based upon at least the same number of points as the PCs, and usually have a full writeup. They represent the leaders of gangs, lieutenants of the major opponent, and so on. They are usually SPD 3 (for Wizards) and SPD 4 for combatants, and have higher CV and extra levels/martial arts. This is where it gets tricky. Usually, there will be one of these characters for each PC, though that needs to vary based upon the tactics of the players. I prefer to use ranged attacks (both magic and bows) to separate out combat a little. I find that it allows the close combat fighters a chance to shine while the Wizards and long range attackers get to try to defend/take out their long range opponents. Of course, if your players use other tactics, you'll need to try something else.

 

As mentioned upthread, swarms of small creatures with low SPD and small attacks can also be fearsome. I usually build my goblin swarms like mooks, but with coordinated attacks. I've used as much as 6 per character, which really isn't that much with the Sweep rules. Once again, balance the encounter on the fly as to how devastating you want them to be (I usually change the number of hits needed to incapacitate).

 

And don't be afraid of mixing different types. A gang of bandits might have some mooks (new recruits), some basic fighters, and some seasoned veterans giving them orders. Another thing, use the terrain as an advantage for the NPCs if it makes sense. Have long range attackers firing from some cover, push the PCs into awkward situations, make it heroic and larger than life. Hero is more about the feel of everything, and less about concentrating on the numbers.

 

JoeG

[Alibear]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

I forgot speed

 

 

Post the characters and we can perhaps advise.

[yamamura]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

I don't think that 3 175 points PCs will be able to tickle a 525 NPC...

 

It all depends on how he is built and where those 525 points are spent. Considered a well connected merchant with tons of contact, wealth and followers. If the PC do it right they could take him out. But they may have a few enemies coming after them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

As mentioned upthread' date=' swarms of small creatures with low SPD and small attacks can also be fearsome. I usually build my goblin swarms like mooks, but with coordinated attacks. I've used as much as 6 per character, which really isn't that much with the Sweep rules. Once again, balance the encounter on the fly as to how devastating you want them to be (I usually change the number of hits needed to incapacitate).[/quote']

Yes. Coordinating can make things deadly. I often use that to emphasize the difference between pansy little weaklings and pansy little weaklings that work in packs. The latter get Teamwork and can absolutely mob a small party of PCs if they can get their grubby little hands on them. The PCs quickly learn to use tactics other than wading to deal with packs of goblins and such, at least if they want to avoid the situation of having to try to break free before they become the night's stew.

[Talon]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

I agree that it's a judgment call -- with as many options as Hero presents, for both the PCs and NPCs, it much harder if not impossible to get a single numeric measure of combat ability. (There have been some attempts in the past, mainly centered around "Rule of X" type measurements, that at least used to be in this forum somewhere.)

 

For many PCs against one target, you need to think about how much damage and other effects the target is going to take over time -- even if his attacks are super nasty, he can get overwhelmed by a number of attacks that pick away at his STUN. Conversely, when building a character with many more points than the PCs, you have to make sure his defenses aren't so high that the PCs can't touch him. (In your example, it would be easy to give a 525 point character complete defense against 175 point PC attacks.)

[Nolgroth]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

From my own perspective.....

 

I once ran an encounter where some basic robots (Dex 10, Speed 2, Average Combat Values and Damage Class) stomped a party of seasoned characters with twice the stats on average (Dex 20, Speed 4, 2x DC and CV). Bad rolls on the players' part and good rolls on my part made for a very bad time. So bad that I had to have two of the players activate backup characters.

 

My point being is that there is no tried and true methods. HERO, if played using all the combat bells and whistles, can be deadly. It can also be the exact opposite. Some of the things I have concluded are;

 

• Small changes in DC, CV, and Defenses can make a significant difference. Moreso than you might think.
  
• Lots of disposable bad guys should have low Body scores. It really doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. You have the characters fighting 20 kobolds, then those kobolds should have around 4-5 Body max.
  
• The longer a fight goes, the more likely a character is to suffer a nasty wound.
  
• The more options (Hit Locations, Bleeding, etc) you use, the more lethal combat will be.
  
• A single opponent is going down quick, unless he violates every campaign guideline that the characters are built around (max CV, DC, Speed, Defenses, etc). For single opponents, use Damage Reduction and moderate defenses whenever possible. It will allow the characters to take him down, but it will be one heck of a fight. Don't pump his attacks up by a lot, but maybe an extra DC or two plus maybe an increased Stun Multiple will make him seem really powerful as somebody is likely to get Stunned each time he attacks. Use AoE attacks too. Those are just some straight up combat options.
  
• Start small. If the characters beat the snot out of your first couple of encounters it's okay. Note how easily Grognak the Barbarian took out that Orc Sergeant. Compare the relative combat stats (Alibear has a nice layout) and see how the Orc Sergeant might have been improved. Make the next Orc tougher, faster, able to withstand more punishment, hit better, whatever it takes.
  
• Tactics, as mentioned before, play a critical roll in combat. Surprise Maneuvers and Coordinated attacks can turn some schlub Goblins into mean killing machines. Always nice to throw that sort of curveball when the players least expect it. Aside from that, Master Villains can add Summon, Mind Control ("Ack! Grognak just turned on us!"), and a whole slew of other powers that are not direct combat powers to their resources.
  

The best advice I can give you is to get in there and experiment.

 

Try this out (assumes Normal Characteristic Maxima and Heroic Guidelines):

 

Mooks/Disposable Bad Guys

CV: 1/2 of Characters

DC: 4-5

Defenses: 1/2 of Characters

Speed: 2

Body: 4

Number: Up to three times the number of PCs

Tactics: Usually not too much in the way of tactics, but you may want to layer on Coordinated attacks or Surprise from time to time to keep the players guessing.

 

Henchmen/Just Under PC Quality

CV: 3/4 of Characters

DC: 5-6

Defenses: 3/4 of Characters

Speed: 3

Body: 7-10

Numbers: About 1 1/2 times the number of PCs. If you mix these guys with mooks, drop 3 from the mook total.

Tactics: Usually not too much in the way of tactics, but you may want to layer on Coordinated attacks or Surprise from time to time to keep the players guessing.

 

Hero-level Bad Guys

Stats: Build with the same guidelines and care as PCs.

Numbers: 1 for each character in the party. If used with Mooks, subtract 5 mooks from the total. Subtract 2 Henchmen from the total. Monitor the fight, if it looks like the characters are going down hard, change all the Henchmen to Mooks.

Tactics: Use coordinated tactics to give the bad guys whatever advantage they can find.

 

Boss Villains

CV: 2 Higher than the highest PC.

DC: 2 Higher than the Highest PC.

Defenses: About 25% more than the characters.

Speed: 5

Body: Anywhere up to about 50% more than campaign max for characters.

Tactics: Be ruthless with this character. He may not have the same resources as a Master Villain, but he should have access to some unusual attacks like Poison, Entangles, Magic or whatnot.

Numbers: 1 per Adventure. Usually surrounds himself with Henchman or Hero-level baddies.

 

Master Villains

CV: 4 Higher than the Highest PC

DC: 3 Higher than the Highest PC (throw in +1 Stun Multiplier or Does Knockback just for fun)

Defenses: About where the PCs are at, but add in 50% Damage Reduction

Speed: 5 or 6

Body: Same as Boss Monster. The 50% Damage Reduction will stretch this out.

Tactics: Extreme craftiness and intelligence. This should be the endgame character for the campaign or story arc. When the characters finally encounter this person, it should be in a fight for their very lives. Pull no punches. Use whatever tactics, allies or whatnot that this NPC has available to skew the outcome. Once the characters beat this guy, they will forever talk about it around the table when nostalgia waxes.

Numbers: 1 per Story Arc or Campaign

 

These are not hard and fast rules. Play with those for a while. See where you can tweak them. You might have to go up or down, especially if you are playing outside the parameters I set for the campaign. Even within each subset, you can tweak.

 

Sorry for the length of this post. This is an extraordinarily complex subject for Hero and there is probably no answer that is "just right." I have provided no more than a suggestion on how to start.

[yukonhorror]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

Thanks everyone. I think this will help. Really, I just want to feed off of your experience to improve my own "feel" of the game. I think my plan is to keep things as is, and make sure my players are flexible enough to want to change things until we get an equilibrium everyone is happy with.

[BlackSword]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

Sorry for the length of this post. This is an extraordinarily complex subject for Hero and there is probably no answer that is "just right." I have provided no more than a suggestion on how to start.

An excellent summary. That is close to how I build my encounters and organize the types of threats the PCs may face. I will add one thing I often do is adjust on the fly. If an NPC is giving the PCs too much trouble I will sometimes adjust the values down in play (and can play it off as the villain getting tired). If an NPC is ineffective they get a little power boost (no reason to hold back anymore).

[megaplayboy]

Re: Rules of thumb for the "challenge level" of bad guy creation?

 

It really boils down to a few questions:

1. How many times per turn can the PCs hit the bad guy, given respective OCV/DCV?

2. How many times per turn can the bad guy be hit before dropping, given respective attacks and defenses?

3. How many times per turn can the bad guy(s) hit the PCs, and how many times can they hit before dropping the PC(s), given respective CV, attacks and defenses?

 

There are some other variables, once you bring in grabs, entangles, flashes, mental powers, concealment, etc. it gets a little complicated, but basically combat is a matter of competing attrition rates--to use a video game metaphor, how fast is their health bar dropping, compared to the PCs, and how long is their health bar, compared to the PCs?

 

with evenly matched CV, a villain and hero should hit each other about 60% of the time. If average PC Stun = 2/3 of active points(i.e., for a 45 active point game, average stun is 30 points), and average defense = 2x damage classes and average damage classes = active points/5, then the average PC-level defenses opponent can take 2 hits before dropping, and will drop at the third hit, if it happens in the same turn. If you want a bad guy who can take on multiple opponents, consider raising his total defenses to 2.5 or even 3x damage classes, and his stun to 100 to 150% of active points. If you want one who can drop a PC in two hits, then give them attacks that are 2-4 DC higher than PC damage levels. Generally, though, you want to avoid writing up bad guys who can "one shot KO" or, worse, "one shot kill" PCs, because your players will hate you for it.

A CV difference of 1 means the low CV guy hits the high CV guy 50% of the time, and the high CV guy hits the low CV guy 75% of the time. Kind of a big difference already. A CV difference of 2 means low CV hits about 40% of the time, to high CV ~80%. 3 CV difference means low= about 1 in 4, high = about 9 in 10. 4 CV difference means low = about 1 in 6, high = about 19 out of 20(insert D&D reference here). Beyond that is "extreme mismatch" territory, where one side is just rolling dice in futility, while the other is doing it as a mere formality.