House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

[ideasmith]

The Limitation as I have it currently written up. Any possible problems I might have missed?

 

Latent

Value: See Text.

A power with this limitation is restricted (usually heavily) until this limitation is bought off. However, this limitation may be bought off in mid-game (at any time – restrictions on the character are irrelevant).

The temporary restrictions should be written up as Limitations. Any Limitation except ‘Latent’ is allowed, but particularly appropriate Limitations include 0 DCV Concentration, *10 Endurance Cost, Only When Improved By An Adjustment Power, Never On, No Conscious Control, 8- Jammed Activation which Must be rolled each Phase, and Extreme Side Effect.

The temporary restrictions need not all be bought off at once.

To determine the value of Latent, total the values of the component temporary restrictions as Limitations, and divide by 2.

When evaluating the game balance of a Latent power, don’t forget that the limit will be bought off in mid-game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

Sounds like a Variable Limitation with a theme of what can be taken (not really a sfx or limit to the # different Limitations).

[prestidigitator]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

To me it's a meta-gaming issue. Either allow the player to buy off Limitations mid-game or not. Before they are bought off, they are just as limiting whether you will buy them off later or not. I'd say calling something "latent" is just a story justification for allowing this kind of character growth at any time. It's not worth points, it's just how you want to run your game.

[dmjalund]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

If you think about it. Latent is actually an advantage. As long as you have payed for the limitations, Latent allows you to remove them in ways not available to others.

[prestidigitator]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

If you know you're going to, "buy it off," and you want the ability to do so at any time, why not just call it a -0 (or not put it down at all) and simply roleplay the character having some difficulty coming into his abilities?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

The Limitation as I have it currently written up. Any possible problems I might have missed?

 

Latent

Value: See Text.

A power with this limitation is restricted (usually heavily) until this limitation is bought off. However, this limitation may be bought off in mid-game (at any time – restrictions on the character are irrelevant).

The temporary restrictions should be written up as Limitations. Any Limitation except ‘Latent’ is allowed, but particularly appropriate Limitations include 0 DCV Concentration, *10 Endurance Cost, Only When Improved By An Adjustment Power, Never On, No Conscious Control, 8- Jammed Activation which Must be rolled each Phase, and Extreme Side Effect.

The temporary restrictions need not all be bought off at once.

To determine the value of Latent, total the values of the component temporary restrictions as Limitations, and divide by 2.

When evaluating the game balance of a Latent power, don’t forget that the limit will be bought off in mid-game.

 

Sounds like a Variable Limitation with a theme of what can be taken (not really a sfx or limit to the # different Limitations).

 

True. If the character is going to suffer from all of the limitations at all times, it seems like he's getting seriously ripped off by only getting half the limitation value.

 

To me it's a meta-gaming issue. Either allow the player to buy off Limitations mid-game or not. Before they are bought off' date=' they are just as limiting whether you will buy them off later or not. I'd say calling something "latent" is just a story justification for allowing this kind of character growth at any time. It's not worth points, it's just how you want to run your game.[/quote']

 

I agree 100%. Spending xp mid-game seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to simulating this effect. Halving the limitation because the character can spend xp in mid-session and lose the limitation marginally earlier than might otherwise have been the case seems like overkill. To me, "latent" is putting all those limitations on the power with the stated intent of buying them off over time. Whether the GM will enforce the need to train between sessions to manifest the latent power more easily, or permit this to be more dramatically accomplished in mid-session is a different matter.

 

It seems to balance out, as the player's choice is to select a specific limitation to buy off before the session, or be allowed to buy off the one he chooses during the session. The advantage of the former approach is that he benefits throughout the entire session. The advantage of the latter is that he can pick the most problematic limitation at one specific point in time and eliminate it (but cannot change that decision later). I don't think one approach has a sufficient benefit to be worth more points than the other.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

I have to agrees with Prestidigitator and Hugh; this is a plot device rather than a limitation in the usual sense. As long as the character has some unspent XP (or even base character points) to spend mid-game with the GM's permission I don't see a problem. In fact it could be a pretty dramatic scene when the character's true power is awakened.

 

I have played games where only certain people were mentalists or mages or whatever, so if you didn't start out with those powers you could never buy them. For players without those powers who wanted to keep that option open, I let them buy a 3pt perk "Latent Mentalist" or "Latent Wizard" to represent the fact they they could buy those powers when they had the XP for it. They could then put the 3pts from the perk toward whatever they were buying.

[ideasmith]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

Thanks for all the advice and help in defining the purpose behind this Limitation. I will at minimum be making some changes (for example, that list of suggested Limitations has to go) but am not yet convinced that Latent is actually redundant.

 

Two points still concern me here:

 

Latent can be partially bought off, or bought off on some powers it was taken for but not others. The discussion so far is assuming the extremes (no points available at all, or enough to buy it off entirely) and ignoring this middle-ground

 

If some characters can spend points in mid-game more readily than others, the former characters have a significant benefit. I do not want all characters able to randomly buy off Limitations mid-game, nor do I want to provide this benefit at no point cost. So what should the point cost be, based on what factors?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

If this character has a higher potential for future power growth then it stands to reason that this 'latent' potential should be more easily detectable (than that of other characters). Might be worth a 5-10 Distinctive Features.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

Thanks for all the advice and help in defining the purpose behind this Limitation. I will at minimum be making some changes (for example' date=' that list of suggested Limitations has to go) but am not yet convinced that Latent is actually redundant. [/font']

 

Two points still concern me here:

 

Latent can be partially bought off, or bought off on some powers it was taken for but not others. The discussion so far is assuming the extremes (no points available at all, or enough to buy it off entirely) and ignoring this middle-ground

 

You can buy only some limitations off on a power, or buy them off on some powers but not others, so this is no different for xp spent between sessions than for xp spent during sessions.

 

If some characters can spend points in mid-game more readily than others' date=' the former characters have a significant benefit. I do not want all characters able to randomly buy off Limitations mid-game, nor do I want to provide this benefit at no point cost. So what should the point cost be, based on what factors? [/quote']

 

I know I wouldn't pay much, if anything, as a player. I can buy the limitation off before the game starts. I won't always pick the most optimal limitation to buy off, but I'll have more points to spend on other abilities. Under your initial pricing, I could start out with each limitation you suggest at half effect, non-latent, for the same point cost.

 

So instead of Latent, 0 DCV Concentration, *10 Endurance Cost, Extreme Side Effect, it could be a power with 1/2 DCV concentration, 5x END cost, and a milder side effect for the same cost. I don't get to buy them off in-game, but I'll suffer from much milder limitations throughout the campaign.

 

If this character has a higher potential for future power growth then it stands to reason that this 'latent' potential should be more easily detectable (than that of other characters). Might be worth a 5-10 Distinctive Features.

 

I'm pretty sure ideasmith isn't looking to give the character a point break (although maybe you get the equivalent of a 5 point DF for the privilege of spending your xp mid-game). I don't even think I'd spend 5 points on the ability, though.

[Ice9]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

It sounds like, if you want spending XP mid-game to be possible but not common, a surcharge on XP spent that way would make more sense. Like for every 5 XP you spend, you get 4 points (adjust ratio to taste). This would make it possible to dramatically master your power when things come down to the wire, but most of the time people would just spend normally.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

It sounds like' date=' if you want spending XP mid-game to be possible but not common, a surcharge on XP spent that way would make more sense. Like for every 5 XP you spend, you get 4 points (adjust ratio to taste). This would make it [i']possible[/i] to dramatically master your power when things come down to the wire, but most of the time people would just spend normally.

 

While I don't think the benefit of mid-game spending is really worth spending points, a charge based on how much xp is spent (ie the use of the ability) seems much more reasonable than a charge for the potential to spend mid-game, which may or may not ever be used.

[prestidigitator]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

You'd already have to have the experience points saved up to buy off the Limitations, right? In the end the character's Total Points are going to be the same either way. Why is running it past the GM at the beginning of the session (or before) and pointing out that you already have the points to spend on it less sufficient than spending some of the points when you purchase the power (which is essentially what giving only half the Limitation value accomplishes)? I really don't understand why pre-allocating some of those points at character creation has to be a part of the GM-player contract. These are dynamic roleplaying characters, not cell phone service plans.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: House Rule Limitation: Latent -- Advice?

 

You'd already have to have the experience points saved up to buy off the Limitations' date=' right? In the end the character's Total Points are going to be the same either way. Why is running it past the GM at the beginning of the session (or before) and pointing out that you already have the points to spend on it less sufficient than spending some of the points when you purchase the power (which is essentially what giving only half the Limitation value accomplishes)? I really don't understand why pre-allocating some of those points at character creation has to be a part of the GM-player contract. These are dynamic roleplaying characters, not cell phone service plans.[/quote']

 

I agree - seems like a good idea to make the game more fun, not something that needs a mechanic to make it cost points.

 

There is one benefit to the character of deciding mid-game, which is the ability to select the limitation(s) for reduction which are most problematic at that given point in time. For example, the power has several of the limitations noted as examples in the original post, and has just awakened from being KO'd, so the player decides to buy off the Increased END limitation, having minimal END at the time. If he could only buy limitations off between sessions, he would not have been able to choose the optimal limitation to buy off.

 

That said, I think this is a negligible benefit at best, for several reasons. First, it only works once. After spending the xp, he's done, and he can't buy of the "concentrate 0 DCV" limitation for the next battle, when that is more limiting than increased END. Second, these powers are going to be heavily limited in any case, so the likelihood that eliminating or reducing a single limitation makes the ability markedly more useful, even in that one encounter, seems limited. Third, he had the points to make the limitation go away anyway. He could have spent them earlier, and not had to contend with some of the limitations from the start of the scenario.

 

Given all of that, I don't see the ability to spend xp in mid-scenario as exceptionally powerful, and not enough to be worth a significant point cost. It's a one time benefit of questionable utility. If it were me, I'd spend the extra points on benefits my character can use from the outset, every game session, and forego the limited one-time benefit of spending xp mid-session. Not that it's not a cool aspect to a given setting, or character. But that cool factor isn't really worth spending points on, so I'll just spend the xp before the session starts. I can always run the character still applying the limitation he has already paid off, and wait for a dramatically appropriate in-game moment to manifest his greater ability to use the latent powers. All the cool and no point cost.

 

As prestidigitator points out, all you're doing is pre-spending the points to buy off the limitations. I'd rather have less limitations to begin with, or more limited powers to improve with xp as time goes on. The dramatic "coming into his power" seems more like a character-specific minor benefit of special effects, or a campaign setting if latent powers are common to most or all characters, not a benefit sufficient to justify a point cost.